this is beginning to become quite the hot topic in the local papers.

the case for removing the children pretty much revolves around the concept of pervasive patterens of abuse being so prevalant that there was legal cause for the childrens immediate emergency removal for ther protection. A pattern that is obvious to anyone familliar with the situation, especially the law enforcemenet agencies who spent three years looking for a reason to raid the compound but never could come up with one that had suficent legal precedent.

HOWEVER, it is being contested by many lawers for the FLDS church, as well as many not directly involved in the situation, that texas only had the right to take the inital 13 they claimed to be pregnant teens (and they are disputing if more than 2 of these teens exist anyways) and that the removal was, in efect, a "class action removal based on opinion" by a child protective services departmant known for it's very liberal/antoginistic views towards taking children, that the motive was actually to just simply get all of the children before they could be prevented by law, making it easier for them to keep the children in the end than it would be by trying to take them later, and that individual cases should have been presented and ruled on by virtue of clear proof BEFORE the rest of the children were taken, not AFTER due to repeated assertions that many parents of the children were not engaged in abuse, just some of them.

in effect, rights of the parents vs rights of the children.

now add to this that there is a 80-90% possibility that the call that sparked the raid in the first place was a deliberate hoax/prank call by an individual with a criminal record of calling the poice on false scares, and who is a anti polygany activist. making the original claim for probable cause very shaky to begin with. not good for the texas case.

also, consider the fact that many se the DNA testing primarily as a way to bring crminal charges, not just to prove paternity.

i'm split on this. i agree with both sides about equally. this will, imho, probably end up in the us surpreme court before it's over.

thoughts, anyone?

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"What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can no longer believe you. "-Nietzsche

My original songs and other stuff updated 1-8-2006

Formerly known as Computwitch

I wasn't sure about this at first, but now I think the kids should be removed. I mean, they don't even know which kid is which, do they? Plus, these women have clearly been brainwashed, we don't know if the kids are being abused or neglected, so for their own safety, remove them but return them asap - as long the mothers get out of that sect thing and live like normal people, that is.


Shouldn't this be in the polygamy thread anyway?

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Those people had a choice to abide by the law or not. Since they did not, the laws and court system is required to deal with the welfare of the 400+ children. States have the right to pass laws to uphold the welfare of children when their parents mistreat them, and I forsee this being upheld US Supreme Court if it gets that far.

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I also can see this from both sides. The culture of the sect is that young girls can "soul bond" at any age, which is abuse. There have been escapee/survivors that have claimed that choldren are beaten for not complying with the rules, and that they were being forced to be married off as 14 year olds. Being brought up in that culture, the kids don't know the ways of the outside world, and don't know that this may be abuse. I also see that living communally, producing your own food, fundamental religion is seen as outside the mainstream, and perhaps these poepl are being judged according to our norms. But as far as I can see, young girls are being taken advantage of period.


I've seen children taken from their parents for far less serious infractions...

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The last that I heard about this case was that the call was traced to a 33 year old woman, known to be a habitual liar, with a record of making such prank calls pretending to be a teenaged girl. Considering the fact that officials have been saying that the only thing provoking the raid, that the police were using as their main basis for doing so, turned out to be a hoax, then yes, I feel like the raid was definitely unsubstantiated.

The woman lived in Colorado City, and that's also where the phone call came from. I do not understand why this call couldn't have been traced sooner and why it wasn't investigated further before the police took such drastic measures.

However, the idea behind child protective services is that they would rather put one hundred innocent families through the process if they could save one child from being abused, as opposed to overlooking that one child that needed help. Frankly, in the end, it's unfortunate that they have to go through all this, but if there is no sign of abuse/etc., then they'll be released back to their homes/families. And if there is evidence of abuse, then it would have been a good thing.

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I think they have just been looking for anything that would allow them to go in and see for themselves what is really going on. That call could have been a prank, but considering it came from Colorado City, another branch, it is highly probable she is speaking from a place of truth.

Young girls should not be marrying old men period. This is what goes on. Furthermore, the level of incest that occurs in these situations is astounding.

I do not feel they had any choice but to remove the children. In my eyes it is no different the DCFS going into a home that has been reported as unfit, and discovering for themselves that yes indeed it is not a good situation. The children are usually removed.

The fact that 16 year old girls are mothers to children age 4, or have numerous babies should not be taken lightly.

The trauma to the little ones is unfortunate but make no mistake this is a necessary evil. The leaders of this sect are not dumb. They chose Texas for a reason. According to Dr. Phil, they do not have to file birth certificates or death certificates.

The stories of violence towards the little ones that have come out are horrible. If anyone watched Dr. Phil's special on this they would have heard the story told about the baby that was beaten with the broom during church services while the congregation sang a song about how blessed their homes were. Horrific!

These women are brainwashed, the boys are turned out into the streets because they are considered competition for the older men of the ranch. This goes beyond is it their right to live this way.

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If it looks like a skunk and smells like a skunk, it aint no kitty cat......

I was considering keeping it there, but decided to start a second thred because my intention for the polygamy thread was to discuss polygamy itself, in a worldwide/historical perspective, not specifically the texas case.

this discussion is intnded to be more about U.S law and proceedure, and the rights of certain U.S agencies in a broad range of situations, and would lead the polygamy thread off topic, IMO.

that said, if one of the mods decides to merge this i wont complain. /2cents

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"What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can no longer believe you. "-Nietzsche

My original songs and other stuff updated 1-8-2006

Formerly known as Computwitch

Well, it seems to me that there are two legal arguments to be made here... the most obvious being the false search - fruit of the poisoned tree argument. The question is whether police had the right, based on the information at hand, to enter the compound. Traditionally, courts have held that as long as the police have reasonable suspicion at the time of warrant application, then a search and any proceeds of the search are valid.

Case in point - this is a real case that happened not long ago. Two men get into a argument, and so one calls the police and tells them that the other man has a kidnapped girl locked up in the basement. He provides a description that, out of sheer chance, matches a missing endangered teenager from the area. The police, based on the anonymous tip, apply for and are granted a no-knock search warrant for the premises. They kick the doors and find no kidnapped girl, but they do discover a full meth lab in the basement. Naturally, they arrest the owner and confiscate the drug lab. The lawyers naturally argued that the arrest and seizure were outside the scope of the warrant, but the judge upheld them on the basis that the police were inside the home legally, based on the information on hand, and that the meth lab constituted a crime in plain sight, which empowered the police to take action. In most cases, where a crime in plain sight is found during a search warrant, the police will freeze the scene and apply for an amended warrant, although in the case of the meth lab, the scope of the crime was determined to be overwhelmingly blantent and immediate arrest and seizure was found to be in the best interests of the public.

I think the same idea exists here - once the officers became aware of the scope of criminal activity, they were obligated to act.

The second basis for challenge may have some merit, in that certain behaviors are protected as religious observances under the 1st Amendment. 1st Amendment protections are what allow Native Americans to practice peyote rituals, for example. The question here is whether the practice of polygamy is protected under the 1st Amendment. If it is, than most of the State's case will evaporate, provided the children are suitably cared for, which in most states means that they are fed, sheltered and provided basic protection against harm. I'm not sure about age-of-consent law in Texas, but if the girls who were married are above that age, then the state may not have much of a case. The question then will be to ask just what we're willing to let people do in the name of protected religious practice.

why were the kids removed from their homes in the first place?? I saw the news but i didn't understand and of it.

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~PrOmIsEs ArE LiEs~[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

My thoughts exactly. Polygamy itself is an ideology- and with many ideologies there are certain abuses that may take place within them. I prefer to separate polygamy and its abuses in my mind- while it is a practice that many find strange or disagreeable, polygamy, in theory, is not a harmful practice.

Regarding Texas, it would obviously be ideal if any removal of the kids were done on a case by case basis to ensure that each child was in an ideal situation. Clearly there just isn't enough man power to achieve this.

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-Sophia
All of us have a secret. One of us is a hero. One of us is a fraud. One of us is a junkie. One of us is a cop. One of us is a saint. One of is a sinner. One of us is a martyr. One of us is a murderer. All of us are guilty. All of us are Lost.