Good or bad? Hygenic and helpful, or cruel and unnecessary? Would you circumcise your sons, or have you done this?

Hmm... here's 2 post's from another thread (That went off topic) that I think sum's it up...

On the off-topic, I strongly encourage everyone who has male children to have them circumcised. Speaking from experience, I can tell you that that little flap of skin is the biggest hassle in the world. Like, worse than taxes.

And hey, lasting longer in bed is rarely a bad thing.

Well we can take your advice or take a look at what the AAP has to say:

After analysis of almost 40 years of available medical research on circumcision, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) issued new recommendations today (Note: today was about 5 years ago) stating that the benefits are not significant enough for the AAP to recommend circumcision as a routine procedure. The new policy statement was published in this month's issue of Pediatrics, the journal of the AAP.
Yep... that pretty much sums it up for me.

It can cause serious problems down the road, if you don't get it done when you are a baby. Also it looks alot better when you have it circumcised, (not that I have seen any that wasn't up close, I swear honey!!) If I ever had a baby boy I would get it done but would probably feel bad about it because I know it would hurt him. hmmm, interesting topic. ;)

Well, from what I have read it's healthier to have the foreskin removed. It can be plauged with bacteria and have a persistent musty smell. (Again, from what I've read, I've never had a close encounter with an uncircumcised man.) That doesen't sound very attractive for giving him oral sex. However, medical research has shown that the foreskin is very sensitive, hence he would have greater sexual pleasure. (Though you circ. guys still have a g-spot many times the size of ours!)

There are some esteem issues associated I guess...like in the locker room would guys joke about it if he was...if he wasn't? Wasn't would probably be worse, as it is rather unattractive. But perhaps if they weren't, and he was it could go the other way...middle and high school can be very cruel too, I'm sure no guy wants his cut/uncut status discussed, and maybe the girl(s) he likes hearing about it.
While on one hand I think it should be a personal choice...on the other it's riskier (and probably more painful) to have it done when one is an adult. However; it's probably not the most dangerous/painful in the world. I'm really on the fence about whether to have it done for my son...his father might have a better perspective to make that decision.

It's risky whether it's done on an infant or an adult. While most cirumcisions do what they're supposed to, there are cases of complications. One boy had his member burned off completely, and his parents tried to convince him he was a girl until he was 14.

I have decided not to have this done to any sons I may ever have in the future. They will learn to clean themselves, which in itself will prevent disease, and if at an appropriate age they want to have it done, I'll arrange it. I'd feel bad making such a personal decision for them without consent.

BTW, there are ways of lasting longer in bed whether one is cut or uncut. Learning to control the PC muscle makes more difference.

AAP Circumcision Policy Statement (http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics%3b103/3/686)

From that link, you can see that the American Academy of Pediatrics no longer considers circumcision to be a recommended routine procedure. When I had my son, what made me choose to get him one was that his father, my ex-husband, is circumcised. There are times in a little boy's life when he might see his father naked. Apparently my brothers are circumcised and MY father is not. My brother and I both had sons at nearly the same time, and we were talking about whether or not we'd get our kids circumcised. My older brother said that once, when he and my dad were changing to go swimming, he noticed the difference. He said he spent a long time wondering what was wrong with him, since his penis looked so different from our father's. Granted, that could have been cleared up if he'd actually ASKED him about it, but he didn't. So that's why WE had it done, not for any supposed benefits or risks.

I'm not sure. I would definatly want imput from his father. Tough decision.

Well I have a brother who is not circumcised and It is more work to take care of, to make sure it clean. For my kids I would absolutely have it done it is more Hygenic, and easier for younger boys to take care of.

My older brother said that once, when he and my dad were changing to go swimming, he noticed the difference. He said he spent a long time wondering what was wrong with him, since his penis looked so different from our father's.


That's funny, I'd assume something was wrong with your DAD'S. What with all that wrinkly extra tissue, yuck!

I'm personally glad I had mine done. I dunno whether I would do it to my kids, I've got to decide if I even want to have any first!

I'm gobsmacked - why do so many people think that having a foreskin means your Old Chap will forever be a festering pus-bag? Really - I'm not snipped and it's no trouble at all to keep the John Thomas clean and presentable. Just whip it back, soap it up, give it a damn good going over and rinse. Same as you do everywhere else.

I can't believe I'm giving instructions on "Cock Husbandry". Oh, well... in for a penny...

It can, on occasion, be uncomfortable during sex. I mean, if you're not drippy with loob (your own or out of a tube... you choose ;) ) then it can hurt like Hell when it gets yanked back over a proudly rampant Love Muscle. But then, have you ever heard the phrase "hurts so good"?

Hell yeah.

OMG, Head...I love you! You just made me laugh SO HARD!

"Just whip it back, soap it up, give it a damn good going over and rinse. " that's great

Can't speak for the "un-snipped" masses, but for myself beign of the "snipped" variety I don't see any problem with it. Here's the thing, I think circumcision boils down to much more "tradition" than anything else, if I have a boy down the road, he'll probably get snipped for maybe no other reason than it's what I prefer no other reason except that. I thik there's a place for both (long as you're keepin Captain Winky clean, I don't see where there'd be too much fo a problem.

I'm gobsmacked - why do so many people think that having a foreskin means your Old Chap will forever be a festering pus-bag? Really - I'm not snipped and it's no trouble at all to keep the John Thomas clean and presentable. Just whip it back, soap it up, give it a damn good going over and rinse. Same as you do everywhere else.

I can't believe I'm giving instructions on "Cock Husbandry". Oh, well... in for a penny...

It can, on occasion, be uncomfortable during sex. I mean, if you're not drippy with loob (your own or out of a tube... you choose ;) ) then it can hurt like Hell when it gets yanked back over a proudly rampant Love Muscle. But then, have you ever heard the phrase "hurts so good"?

Hell yeah. ROFLMFAO!!!! :D *tries to breathe normally again*

I'm gobsmacked - why do so many people think that having a foreskin means your Old Chap will forever be a festering pus-bag? Really - I'm not snipped and it's no trouble at all to keep the John Thomas clean and presentable. Just whip it back, soap it up, give it a damn good going over and rinse. Same as you do everywhere else.

I can't believe I'm giving instructions on "Cock Husbandry". Oh, well... in for a penny...

It can, on occasion, be uncomfortable during sex. I mean, if you're not drippy with loob (your own or out of a tube... you choose ;) ) then it can hurt like Hell when it gets yanked back over a proudly rampant Love Muscle. But then, have you ever heard the phrase "hurts so good"?

Hell yeah.


Head. You rock. Read this early in the a.m. and laughed really hard. Thanks for making it funny! Much love!

Sarah

I may be biased (I've never seen a circumcised) but I would have to rule in favor of uncircumcised.

Also it looks alot better when you have it circumcised, (not that I have seen any that wasn't up close, I swear honey!!)

I think they're cute. *shrugs*

I don't think I would circumcise a son if I had one. I don't think it's fair to deny them as much sexual pleasure as they could potentially have.

if it really helps them in the future then they should

Well, from what I have read it's healthier to have the foreskin removed. It can be plauged with bacteria and have a persistent musty smell. (Again, from what I've read, I've never had a close encounter with an uncircumcised man.) That doesen't sound very attractive for giving him oral sex. However, medical research has shown that the foreskin is very sensitive, hence he would have greater sexual pleasure. (Though you circ. guys still have a g-spot many times the size of ours!)

Ew,,, hon,,, with or without foreskin, if a man is tidy no reason to justify the amputation 'cause such "musty smell". Will you mutilate the ears of someone 'cause is dirty??? Keep yourself so far of them, nothing else. Looking for reasonings to follow this practise 'cause "maybe" would be useful in the future is against Nature... some Africans are doing clit ablation for the same "healthy or moral" purpose... sucks!

... some Africans are doing clit ablation for the same "healthy or moral" purpose... sucks!
Oww.... that's gotta hurt! :eek:
----
I had my son circumsized when he was born. His father watched & said it was horrible :eek: - he felt so bad. :( And I felt bad after hearing this. But anyway, I read up on it a little after my OB/GYN asked me what we were planning to do. So the decision was made & now he's like his father - circumsized.

LMAO!!!
Captain Winky!! Old Chap!! John Thomas!! I love you guys!! :D

I've seen both types up close...Non-snipped just looks funky to me. :eek:

Of course, these days, they all kinda look funky to me. lol

But if I ever had a son, I think I'd go for the snip.

Well for the record, I'm snipped. But I just can't get why people are worried about depriving their sons of 'potential sexual pleasure' (can't remember who said that, so i don't mean to point anyone out.) I mean DAMN. I'm a rather docile one myself, but I'll admit to it: (most) men are horndogs. I know a few respectable ones. What if every guy was walking around with an extra sex hood in their pants that just adds to the hormonal bombardment.

It'd be like....Iraq.......or something....

I'll throw a 'no' in there for circumcised. I like the way it looks, and it's probably easier to take care of, but that's about all. And really, cosmetic surgury for my own preference in something, isn't one I want to make on my child. And well, from a girl's perspective, as long as it there I really don't mind either way.. ;)

I'll throw a 'no' in there for circumcised. I like the way it looks, and it's probably easier to take care of, but that's about all. And really, cosmetic surgury for my own preference in something, isn't one I want to make on my child. And well, from a girl's perspective, as long as it there I really don't mind either way.. ;)

Yeah! I always wondered why parents don't allow their children to make the decision to have the surgery or not when they get older. Off topic but in conjunction, I always thought it was wrong for the parents to press their religion on a child before they are able to make the decision for themselves.

Wow, I never knew this was actually something people debated over. Then again I've never thought more than naming my potential children. Hmm...well if it helps anyone, I've never had the thought "God dammit mom, why'd you have to snip me?" And I'm sure you all will be glad to know that I don't remember a moment of pain when they (apparently) did it :) . Then again, I can't remember what color of socks I put on today. :confused:

Whether it is right or wrong has no effect on me It is the Parent's choice, What I think is wrong is this:

I was At church today and I was shock that my priest was preaching about circumcision was a way of showing Jesus You love Him?
And so I'm Asking You for Your opinion How Does Cutting Off a piece of skin prove you love someone??

Religion is one thinsg but i thought that was ridiculous!!

Whether it is right or wrong has no effect on me It is the Parent's choice, What I think is wrong is this:

I was At church today and I was shock that my priest was preaching about circumcision was a way of showing Jesus You love Him?
And so I'm Asking You for Your opinion How Does Cutting Off a piece of skin prove you love someone??

Religion is one thinsg but i thought that was ridiculous!!

I thought Christianity on the whole has had a neutral attitude towards circumcision. Even Paul says in the Bible, "In Christ, circumcision availeth nothing." So I agree with you (and I'm puzzled) concerning that priest.

I always thought circumcision was mainly a Jewish tradition...

Christianity as a whole has no doctrine about circumcision. I don't think the church really has a position in this, although some Jewish parents will of course want to follow their religion's dictates. These days, the majority of American boys are circumcised, for cleanliness purposes (nearly 1.2 million, or 62%, of boys circumcised each year (http://www.myhealthypenis.com/Circumcise.htm)). The general medical consensus is that it lowers risk of HIV transmission and keeps the person cleaner (same source), but does not affect penile sensation ("A Masters and Johnson study, however, reported that there is no difference in sensitivity" - same source). However, "sensitivity" may not translate to pleasure, and I don't think they've got it all figured out yet.

I personally don't see anything wrong with slowing the guy down during sex. While my husband and I have never had a premature ejaculation problem, I have plenty of friends who say their guy lasts a grand total of 2.4 minutes.

As for the pain? I don't think babies experience pain quite like we do, and from what I understand, the doctors use a local anesthetic when they do it, so it doesn't hurt that badly. Overall, circumcision is for the child's own good, and it doesn't impose any undue trauma (when's the last time you've seen someone in therapy over their circumcision), so why not?

FEMALE circumcision is an entirely different case, but since I don't think that's what we're discussing here, I'll shut up now.

<3 Mary

In the old testament, the Jews would circumcise their sons. It's symbolic for the cutting away of sinful things. However, as has already been quoted, the new testament states it holds no spiritual significance. Christianity is much more of a heart issue than a show of outward rituals and traditions. ie. "Clean" and "unclean" foods. Even so, it actually reduces the risk of cancer to be circumcised. Also, the "unclean" foods are actually less healthy than the "clean" ones. ie. Pork vs. Turkey. So maybe the old testament is more than we give it credit for, eh?

Back on subject; I was circumcised as a baby and am glad for it because of all the previously mentioned benefits and because anyone who does it when they have a working memory is out of their mind.:eek: Haha. Can you say pain?

I have two sons, both of which we (father and I) chose to circumcise. The oldest being circumcised was a godsend, because after the cirumcision we found out that he had a bleeding disorder. Had we not chose to circumcise him, we may not have known and could have potentially lost him. The youngest was circumcised after we found out about the disease (he was lucky) and it was done under anesthesia at a pediatric hospital. I am for circumcision, but only male. Female is another story.. and it makes intercourse nearly impossible for the woman, where as male does not.

deb

I don't see the need for it personally.
If you're taught how to wash properly and often then it's fine.
Plus without the forskin you'd lose some sensitvity because it would rub against your clothes and stuff.

If I had sons the only time i'd get them circumcised is if they needed it for medical reasons, such as they cannotretract the skin fully or something.

And about being snipped looking prettier... I didn't know they were meant to look pretty lol. If you jsut pulled back the skin it would look the same wouldn't it? :p

I don't see the need for it personally.
If you're taught how to wash properly and often then it's fine.
Maybe. But as I said earlier, it lowers your risk of cancer when the skin is removed.

Maybe. But as I said earlier, it lowers your risk of cancer when the skin is removed.
is the risk lowered significantly?


I think it's more a matter of personal choice than right/wrong because both have their good and bad sides.

First, let me say that circumcision of infants and children is mutilation and a profound infringement of basic human rights. It should most definitely be ILLEGAL! There is no making a decision here, you just don't do it! It is not your body to be making a decision about. It is NOT medically indicated in ANY way, and it causes an immeasurable loss in sexual pleasure. These are the facts. Circumcision advocates rely not on facts, but myths, rumors, superstition, lies, greed, religion, and cultural tradition to support their villainous deeds. Circumcision proponents are sick people.
From my experiences, it is common that people who oppose circumcision, like a decent human should, tend to be more intelligent, compassionate, creative, and cultured. Advocates of circumcision tend to be less intelligent, less cultured, narrow-minded, bitter people with a lot to learn (and usually over 25). This is from extensive, real-life observation. And please, don't send me email saying, "Duh, I have a Ph.D., so that automatically makes me right, and I am for circumcision!"
1. Sorry, but a Ph.D. does NOT automatically make you more intelligent than everyone else.
2. If you agree with non-consentual circumcision, you CAN'T be intelligent. It simply goes against the principles of intelligence! Think about it!




Now let us review some of the real FACTS about circumcision that are totally INARGUABLE!
1. When an infant or child is circumcised, they did NOT make the decision. This makes it a VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

2. Circumcision CANNOT prevent penile cancer, never has and never will. Circumcised men get penile cancer, too, and at just the same rate (if not MORE often) as intact men.

3. Circumcision ALWAYS causes irreparable loss of sexual pleasure. Men circumcised in adulthood say this loss is as much as 90%!!!

4. People who say that circumcision doesn't affect or only slightly affects sexuality have NOT experienced BOTH WORLDS (and are talking thus out of their ass).

5. There is no such thing as a "covenant with God" that makes circumcision mandatory for any religion.

6. Having a foreskin does not make infection of ANY kind more common. A cause of a higher infection rate stems from the fact that many parents are told to pull back the baby's foreskin before it is ready. THIS is what is causing infection, NOT the foreskin itself. Parents should be aware that the natural, whole, intact penis, requires NO special care, and that pulling the foreskin back is very harmful. It will retract when ready, and is self cleansing, much like the eye and eyelid.

7. Circumcised men are FAR more likely to acquire erectile dysfunction (impotence). For one thing, during circumcision, the blood supply of the penis is DRASTICALLY altered, and many blood vessels are destroyed. Since erection relies on blood, it's easy to see why this is so detrimental. More importantly, erectile dysfunctions can be caused by the severe loss of sexual pleasure from circumcision, and the constant callusing of the glans penis. By old age, the circumcised man's glans is no more sensitive than his elbow. It's no wonder the old guys can't get it up!

8. Circumcision renders a penis's appearance rather ugly and sickly. Hey, it's MISSING parts! That's NOT NORMAL!!!!!!!

9. Nearly 90% of all the men on the planet have their foreskins. Kinda makes sense that something's wrong with circumcision then, huh?

10. A circumcised penis is LESS PENIS!!!!! Guys, don't you care about that?

11. Parents who defend circumcising their children do so because they are totally ignorant to reality and refuse to admit they made a mistake. But the truth still doesn't hurt as much as circumcision.

12. Circumcision is an act of DESTRUCTION. It destroys flesh, blood vessels, muscle tissue, sexual nerves, and much more. It destroys the victims sense of wholeness and their rights. It is destruction and mutilation.

13. Children have DIED due directly to circumcision. People, this is senseless!!!! Do you REALLY want to take the risk?



INARGUABLE FACTS ABOUT HAVING A FORESKIN
1. The individual with a foreskin will always have the knowledge that he is whole and complete and has been allowed to make decisions about his own body himself.

2. A male with a foreskin will experience a higher level of pleasure because his glans will be soft, moist, and clean due to the foreskin's protective sheath (this is exactly what Nature intended).

3. The man's sexual partner will never require lubricants because the foreskin provides a gliding mechanism to the penis, and as stated above, the glans will be soft and moist anyway.

4. A foreskin makes the penis's appearance very beautiful and whole (ever wonder why great art depicts man with a foreskin?).

5. Sexual pleasure is increased immensely not only because the glans is protected, but also because the foreskin itself contains a vast array of sexually sensitive nerves.

6. Men circumcised as an adult say that sex with a foreskin was like seeing in full 3D color, and sex after circumcision is like seeing in flat black and white. Most men circumcised in adulthood were tricked into it by money-hungry doctors.

7. Masturbation is incredibly easier and more pleasurable with a foreskin because no lubricants are needed and less effort is required. There is no need for harsh, severe stimulation like with an insensitive circumcised penis.

8. You don't die from complications due to circumcision when you are not circumcised.

Men, it's time to start acting like men and take back what is rightfully ours! Let's get these laws changed to protect our bodies and the bodies of our children!

I could go on and on about the multitude of things right with having a foreskin and the plethora of things devastatingly wrong with circumcision and its destructive nature

Taken from http://josh.bakehorn.net/circ2.html

Ok Here are a few links that maybe helpful to anyone who wants to know the facts:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~stormboy/circumcision/circfleiss.htm

Also read an article of motivations for circumcision Including punishment for masturbation!!!
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~stormboy/circumcision/circmotiv.htm

Hope this help anyone!!

First, let me say that circumcision of infants and children is mutilation and a profound infringement of basic human rights. It should most definitely be ILLEGAL! There is no making a decision here, you just don't do it! It is not your body to be making a decision about. It is NOT medically indicated in ANY way, and it causes an immeasurable loss in sexual pleasure. These are the facts. Circumcision advocates rely not on facts, but myths, rumors, superstition, lies, greed, religion, and cultural tradition to support their villainous deeds. Circumcision proponents are sick people.
From my experiences, it is common that people who oppose circumcision, like a decent human should, tend to be more intelligent, compassionate, creative, and cultured. Advocates of circumcision tend to be less intelligent, less cultured, narrow-minded, bitter people with a lot to learn (and usually over 25). This is from extensive, real-life observation. And please, don't send me email saying, "Duh, I have a Ph.D., so that automatically makes me right, and I am for circumcision!"
1. Sorry, but a Ph.D. does NOT automatically make you more intelligent than everyone else.
2. If you agree with non-consentual circumcision, you CAN'T be intelligent. It simply goes against the principles of intelligence! Think about it!




Now let us review some of the real FACTS about circumcision that are totally INARGUABLE!
1. When an infant or child is circumcised, they did NOT make the decision. This makes it a VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

2. Circumcision CANNOT prevent penile cancer, never has and never will. Circumcised men get penile cancer, too, and at just the same rate (if not MORE often) as intact men.

3. Circumcision ALWAYS causes irreparable loss of sexual pleasure. Men circumcised in adulthood say this loss is as much as 90%!!!

4. People who say that circumcision doesn't affect or only slightly affects sexuality have NOT experienced BOTH WORLDS (and are talking thus out of their ass).

5. There is no such thing as a "covenant with God" that makes circumcision mandatory for any religion.

6. Having a foreskin does not make infection of ANY kind more common. A cause of a higher infection rate stems from the fact that many parents are told to pull back the baby's foreskin before it is ready. THIS is what is causing infection, NOT the foreskin itself. Parents should be aware that the natural, whole, intact penis, requires NO special care, and that pulling the foreskin back is very harmful. It will retract when ready, and is self cleansing, much like the eye and eyelid.

7. Circumcised men are FAR more likely to acquire erectile dysfunction (impotence). For one thing, during circumcision, the blood supply of the penis is DRASTICALLY altered, and many blood vessels are destroyed. Since erection relies on blood, it's easy to see why this is so detrimental. More importantly, erectile dysfunctions can be caused by the severe loss of sexual pleasure from circumcision, and the constant callusing of the glans penis. By old age, the circumcised man's glans is no more sensitive than his elbow. It's no wonder the old guys can't get it up!

8. Circumcision renders a penis's appearance rather ugly and sickly. Hey, it's MISSING parts! That's NOT NORMAL!!!!!!!

9. Nearly 90% of all the men on the planet have their foreskins. Kinda makes sense that something's wrong with circumcision then, huh?

10. A circumcised penis is LESS PENIS!!!!! Guys, don't you care about that?

11. Parents who defend circumcising their children do so because they are totally ignorant to reality and refuse to admit they made a mistake. But the truth still doesn't hurt as much as circumcision.

12. Circumcision is an act of DESTRUCTION. It destroys flesh, blood vessels, muscle tissue, sexual nerves, and much more. It destroys the victims sense of wholeness and their rights. It is destruction and mutilation.

13. Children have DIED due directly to circumcision. People, this is senseless!!!! Do you REALLY want to take the risk?



INARGUABLE FACTS ABOUT HAVING A FORESKIN
1. The individual with a foreskin will always have the knowledge that he is whole and complete and has been allowed to make decisions about his own body himself.

2. A male with a foreskin will experience a higher level of pleasure because his glans will be soft, moist, and clean due to the foreskin's protective sheath (this is exactly what Nature intended).

3. The man's sexual partner will never require lubricants because the foreskin provides a gliding mechanism to the penis, and as stated above, the glans will be soft and moist anyway.

4. A foreskin makes the penis's appearance very beautiful and whole (ever wonder why great art depicts man with a foreskin?).

5. Sexual pleasure is increased immensely not only because the glans is protected, but also because the foreskin itself contains a vast array of sexually sensitive nerves.

6. Men circumcised as an adult say that sex with a foreskin was like seeing in full 3D color, and sex after circumcision is like seeing in flat black and white. Most men circumcised in adulthood were tricked into it by money-hungry doctors.

7. Masturbation is incredibly easier and more pleasurable with a foreskin because no lubricants are needed and less effort is required. There is no need for harsh, severe stimulation like with an insensitive circumcised penis.

8. You don't die from complications due to circumcision when you are not circumcised.

Men, it's time to start acting like men and take back what is rightfully ours! Let's get these laws changed to protect our bodies and the bodies of our children!

I could go on and on about the multitude of things right with having a foreskin and the plethora of things devastatingly wrong with circumcision and its destructive nature

Taken from http://josh.bakehorn.net/circ2.html
A- freakin- men. Damn, whoever wrote that is greatly educated. My bro is cut, and he thinks he's the shit, but this just proved him wrong..Well when he sees this anyway. Plus, that article made me sqweemish. I didn't like the blood part, but great backup.

First, let me say that circumcision of infants and children is mutilation and a profound infringement of basic human rights. It should most definitely be ILLEGAL! There is no making a decision here, you just don't do it! It is not your body to be making a decision about. It is NOT medically indicated in ANY way, and it causes an immeasurable loss in sexual pleasure. These are the facts. Circumcision advocates rely not on facts, but myths, rumors, superstition, lies, greed, religion, and cultural tradition to support their villainous deeds. Circumcision proponents are sick people.
From my experiences, it is common that people who oppose circumcision, like a decent human should, tend to be more intelligent, compassionate, creative, and cultured. Advocates of circumcision tend to be less intelligent, less cultured, narrow-minded, bitter people with a lot to learn (and usually over 25). This is from extensive, real-life observation. And please, don't send me email saying, "Duh, I have a Ph.D., so that automatically makes me right, and I am for circumcision!"
1. Sorry, but a Ph.D. does NOT automatically make you more intelligent than everyone else.
2. If you agree with non-consentual circumcision, you CAN'T be intelligent. It simply goes against the principles of intelligence! Think about it!




Now let us review some of the real FACTS about circumcision that are totally INARGUABLE!
1. When an infant or child is circumcised, they did NOT make the decision. This makes it a VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

2. Circumcision CANNOT prevent penile cancer, never has and never will. Circumcised men get penile cancer, too, and at just the same rate (if not MORE often) as intact men.

3. Circumcision ALWAYS causes irreparable loss of sexual pleasure. Men circumcised in adulthood say this loss is as much as 90%!!!

4. People who say that circumcision doesn't affect or only slightly affects sexuality have NOT experienced BOTH WORLDS (and are talking thus out of their ass).

5. There is no such thing as a "covenant with God" that makes circumcision mandatory for any religion.

6. Having a foreskin does not make infection of ANY kind more common. A cause of a higher infection rate stems from the fact that many parents are told to pull back the baby's foreskin before it is ready. THIS is what is causing infection, NOT the foreskin itself. Parents should be aware that the natural, whole, intact penis, requires NO special care, and that pulling the foreskin back is very harmful. It will retract when ready, and is self cleansing, much like the eye and eyelid.

7. Circumcised men are FAR more likely to acquire erectile dysfunction (impotence). For one thing, during circumcision, the blood supply of the penis is DRASTICALLY altered, and many blood vessels are destroyed. Since erection relies on blood, it's easy to see why this is so detrimental. More importantly, erectile dysfunctions can be caused by the severe loss of sexual pleasure from circumcision, and the constant callusing of the glans penis. By old age, the circumcised man's glans is no more sensitive than his elbow. It's no wonder the old guys can't get it up!

8. Circumcision renders a penis's appearance rather ugly and sickly. Hey, it's MISSING parts! That's NOT NORMAL!!!!!!!

9. Nearly 90% of all the men on the planet have their foreskins. Kinda makes sense that something's wrong with circumcision then, huh?

10. A circumcised penis is LESS PENIS!!!!! Guys, don't you care about that?

11. Parents who defend circumcising their children do so because they are totally ignorant to reality and refuse to admit they made a mistake. But the truth still doesn't hurt as much as circumcision.

12. Circumcision is an act of DESTRUCTION. It destroys flesh, blood vessels, muscle tissue, sexual nerves, and much more. It destroys the victims sense of wholeness and their rights. It is destruction and mutilation.

13. Children have DIED due directly to circumcision. People, this is senseless!!!! Do you REALLY want to take the risk?



INARGUABLE FACTS ABOUT HAVING A FORESKIN
1. The individual with a foreskin will always have the knowledge that he is whole and complete and has been allowed to make decisions about his own body himself.

2. A male with a foreskin will experience a higher level of pleasure because his glans will be soft, moist, and clean due to the foreskin's protective sheath (this is exactly what Nature intended).

3. The man's sexual partner will never require lubricants because the foreskin provides a gliding mechanism to the penis, and as stated above, the glans will be soft and moist anyway.

4. A foreskin makes the penis's appearance very beautiful and whole (ever wonder why great art depicts man with a foreskin?).

5. Sexual pleasure is increased immensely not only because the glans is protected, but also because the foreskin itself contains a vast array of sexually sensitive nerves.

6. Men circumcised as an adult say that sex with a foreskin was like seeing in full 3D color, and sex after circumcision is like seeing in flat black and white. Most men circumcised in adulthood were tricked into it by money-hungry doctors.

7. Masturbation is incredibly easier and more pleasurable with a foreskin because no lubricants are needed and less effort is required. There is no need for harsh, severe stimulation like with an insensitive circumcised penis.

8. You don't die from complications due to circumcision when you are not circumcised.

Men, it's time to start acting like men and take back what is rightfully ours! Let's get these laws changed to protect our bodies and the bodies of our children!

I could go on and on about the multitude of things right with having a foreskin and the plethora of things devastatingly wrong with circumcision and its destructive nature

Taken from http://josh.bakehorn.net/circ2.html First of all, where did this guy get all his statstics from? I looked at all the sites he claims were his resources, and yet none of them, to my knowledge, have those statistics.

1. When an infant or child is circumcised, they did NOT make the decision. This makes it a VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS. There are a lot of things that adults make the decision for their children. I am not saying I agree with this, but if someone is going to state that, then I would like if they also stated why this is considered a violation and not other things. Yes, I believe this is an entirely different issue on a whole different level, but you nor the person who wrote this "essay" stated that, so I don't know.

2. Circumcision CANNOT prevent penile cancer, never has and never will. Circumcised men get penile cancer, too, and at just the same rate (if not MORE often) as intact men. I've never heard of either way affecting cancer, but I'd like to see proof.

3. Circumcision ALWAYS causes irreparable loss of sexual pleasure. Men circumcised in adulthood say this loss is as much as 90%!!! Again, statistics.

8. Circumcision renders a penis's appearance rather ugly and sickly. Hey, it's MISSING parts! That's NOT NORMAL!!!!!!! That's just an opinion, not a fact.

9. Nearly 90% of all the men on the planet have their foreskins. Kinda makes sense that something's wrong with circumcision then, huh? I don't know if I believe that. But, it would be nice to see some statistics on the matter.

3. The man's sexual partner will never require lubricants because the foreskin provides a gliding mechanism to the penis, and as stated above, the glans will be soft and moist anyway. Just out of curiosity, then...why is it that females have natural lubricants at all?




Just as a side note, if I ever have children, I wouldn't want to circumcise my son. I believe it's completely unecessary, just as would be putting him under surgery to take out his appendix, so he wouldn't have problems with it later. And yes, those two things are very different from each other, but it's the closest example that I can think of. And besides, it's natural to have a foreskin.

It's just that if someone is going to join a debate, it's nice to see some back-up for things that are trying to be passed off as facts, and it's always good to remember that opinions aren't, in fact, facts.

Circumcision proponents are sick people.
That is a generalization, and an offensive one at that.

From my experiences, it is common that people who oppose circumcision, like a decent human should, tend to be more intelligent, compassionate, creative, and cultured. Advocates of circumcision tend to be less intelligent, less cultured, narrow-minded, bitter people with a lot to learn (and usually over 25). This is from extensive, real-life observation.
Okay, from my extensive, real-life observation, the opposite is true. What makes your observation better or more correct than mine?

Now let us review some of the real FACTS about circumcision that are totally INARGUABLE!
Nothing, and I repeat, NOTHING, is inarguable.

1. When an infant or child is circumcised, they did NOT make the decision. This makes it a VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.
Kind of like giving them shots to prevent disease is? They don't want the shot. They kick and scream and cry about the shot. This is a VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS and we should stop it immediately. Our children have the right to choose to get ill and die rather than withstand 2 seconds of pain.

2. Circumcision CANNOT prevent penile cancer, never has and never will. Circumcised men get penile cancer, too, and at just the same rate (if not MORE often) as intact men.
Really? Prove it.

3. Circumcision ALWAYS causes irreparable loss of sexual pleasure. Men circumcised in adulthood say this loss is as much as 90%!!!
Again, proof? And never say ALWAYS or NEVER. In science, these things don't exist.

4. People who say that circumcision doesn't affect or only slightly affects sexuality have NOT experienced BOTH WORLDS (and are talking thus out of their ass).
Likewise, if you were not circumcised as an adult, YOU are talking out of YOUR ass. There are scientific studies that show that circumcision does not affect penile sensitivity. Where are your studies?

5. There is no such thing as a "covenant with God" that makes circumcision mandatory for any religion.
Who the hell are you to say? If my religious beliefs dictate circumcision because of a covenant with God (which they don't, by the way), then to me that covenant is real. How dare you attack someone else's beliefs?

6. Having a foreskin does not make infection of ANY kind more common. A cause of a higher infection rate stems from the fact that many parents are told to pull back the baby's foreskin before it is ready. THIS is what is causing infection, NOT the foreskin itself. Parents should be aware that the natural, whole, intact penis, requires NO special care, and that pulling the foreskin back is very harmful. It will retract when ready, and is self cleansing, much like the eye and eyelid.
Self-cleansing? Have you ever smelled an unwashed uncircumcised penis? You've got to be kidding me!

7. Circumcised men are FAR more likely to acquire erectile dysfunction (impotence). For one thing, during circumcision, the blood supply of the penis is DRASTICALLY altered, and many blood vessels are destroyed. Since erection relies on blood, it's easy to see why this is so detrimental. More importantly, erectile dysfunctions can be caused by the severe loss of sexual pleasure from circumcision, and the constant callusing of the glans penis. By old age, the circumcised man's glans is no more sensitive than his elbow. It's no wonder the old guys can't get it up!
Again, proof please?

8. Circumcision renders a penis's appearance rather ugly and sickly. Hey, it's MISSING parts! That's NOT NORMAL!!!!!!!
Some people would argue that the uncircumcised penis is less attractive than its snipped counterpart. I mean, don't girls' legs look better shaved? Hey, it's MISSING hair! That's NOT NORMAL!!!!!!!

9. Nearly 90% of all the men on the planet have their foreskins. Kinda makes sense that something's wrong with circumcision then, huh?
Maybe. But in 1900, 90% of the world did not have electricity. Does that mean there's something wrong with electricity?

10. A circumcised penis is LESS PENIS!!!!! Guys, don't you care about that?
I guess a penis without a foreskin is like a steak without the fat for some of us. Hmm...

11. Parents who defend circumcising their children do so because they are totally ignorant to reality and refuse to admit they made a mistake. But the truth still doesn't hurt as much as circumcision.
I haven't circumcised anything. And who says circumcision hurts?

12. Circumcision is an act of DESTRUCTION. It destroys flesh, blood vessels, muscle tissue, sexual nerves, and much more. It destroys the victims sense of wholeness and their rights. It is destruction and mutilation.
And so is weight loss. Right.

13. Children have DIED due directly to circumcision. People, this is senseless!!!! Do you REALLY want to take the risk?
Here in America? This I have got to see.


INARGUABLE FACTS ABOUT HAVING A FORESKIN
Again, NOTHING is inarguable.

1. The individual with a foreskin will always have the knowledge that he is whole and complete and has been allowed to make decisions about his own body himself.
Many of my friends with intact foreskins do not feel whole and complete, nor do they feel like they have been able to make all the decisions about their bodies. In fact, many of them feel that they should have been women.

2. A male with a foreskin will experience a higher level of pleasure because his glans will be soft, moist, and clean due to the foreskin's protective sheath (this is exactly what Nature intended).
IF Nature indeed had intentions.

3. The man's sexual partner will never require lubricants because the foreskin provides a gliding mechanism to the penis, and as stated above, the glans will be soft and moist anyway.
Oh, because I'm so sure that a woman can enjoy sex with no lubricants. And if everything is made as "Nature intended" why does a woman have lubricants at all?

4. A foreskin makes the penis's appearance very beautiful and whole (ever wonder why great art depicts man with a foreskin?).
I don't know many people who actually think a foreskin is attractive.

5. Sexual pleasure is increased immensely not only because the glans is protected, but also because the foreskin itself contains a vast array of sexually sensitive nerves.

6. Men circumcised as an adult say that sex with a foreskin was like seeing in full 3D color, and sex after circumcision is like seeing in flat black and white. Most men circumcised in adulthood were tricked into it by money-hungry doctors.
Prove this please.

7. Masturbation is incredibly easier and more pleasurable with a foreskin because no lubricants are needed and less effort is required. There is no need for harsh, severe stimulation like with an insensitive circumcised penis.
Oh, well guys don't seem to have much of a problem either way.

8. You don't die from complications due to circumcision when you are not circumcised.
No, just from penile cancer.

Men, it's time to start acting like men and take back what is rightfully ours! Let's get these laws changed to protect our bodies and the bodies of our children!
Um, your body is never going to be "violated" by circumcision, since you're an adult. So how are you protecting your body? And the bodies of your children? Won't you be there to make that decision for them?

I could go on and on about the multitude of things right with having a foreskin and the plethora of things devastatingly wrong with circumcision and its destructive nature
Yes, and you can't prove a one of 'em.

Upon rereading my post, I realized that I sounded a little harsh. I'm not a harsh person by nature, I just come across wrong occasionally. I mean no ill will against you; I am just trying to carry on a spirited debate. Please read my post in light of this information. I like everybody, so don't take it personally.

<3 Mary

First, let me say that circumcision of infants and children is mutilation and a profound infringement of basic human rights. It should most definitely be ILLEGAL! There is no making a decision here, you just don't do it! It is not your body to be making a decision about. It is NOT medically indicated in ANY way, and it causes an immeasurable loss in sexual pleasure. These are the facts. Circumcision advocates rely not on facts, but myths, rumors, superstition, lies, greed, religion, and cultural tradition to support their villainous deeds. Circumcision proponents are sick people.
From my experiences, it is common that people who oppose circumcision, like a decent human should, tend to be more intelligent, compassionate, creative, and cultured. Advocates of circumcision tend to be less intelligent, less cultured, narrow-minded, bitter people with a lot to learn (and usually over 25). This is from extensive, real-life observation. And please, don't send me email saying, "Duh, I have a Ph.D., so that automatically makes me right, and I am for circumcision!"
1. Sorry, but a Ph.D. does NOT automatically make you more intelligent than everyone else.
2. If you agree with non-consentual circumcision, you CAN'T be intelligent. It simply goes against the principles of intelligence! Think about it!




Now let us review some of the real FACTS about circumcision that are totally INARGUABLE!
1. When an infant or child is circumcised, they did NOT make the decision. This makes it a VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

2. Circumcision CANNOT prevent penile cancer, never has and never will. Circumcised men get penile cancer, too, and at just the same rate (if not MORE often) as intact men.

3. Circumcision ALWAYS causes irreparable loss of sexual pleasure. Men circumcised in adulthood say this loss is as much as 90%!!!

4. People who say that circumcision doesn't affect or only slightly affects sexuality have NOT experienced BOTH WORLDS (and are talking thus out of their ass).

5. There is no such thing as a "covenant with God" that makes circumcision mandatory for any religion.

6. Having a foreskin does not make infection of ANY kind more common. A cause of a higher infection rate stems from the fact that many parents are told to pull back the baby's foreskin before it is ready. THIS is what is causing infection, NOT the foreskin itself. Parents should be aware that the natural, whole, intact penis, requires NO special care, and that pulling the foreskin back is very harmful. It will retract when ready, and is self cleansing, much like the eye and eyelid.

7. Circumcised men are FAR more likely to acquire erectile dysfunction (impotence). For one thing, during circumcision, the blood supply of the penis is DRASTICALLY altered, and many blood vessels are destroyed. Since erection relies on blood, it's easy to see why this is so detrimental. More importantly, erectile dysfunctions can be caused by the severe loss of sexual pleasure from circumcision, and the constant callusing of the glans penis. By old age, the circumcised man's glans is no more sensitive than his elbow. It's no wonder the old guys can't get it up!

8. Circumcision renders a penis's appearance rather ugly and sickly. Hey, it's MISSING parts! That's NOT NORMAL!!!!!!!

9. Nearly 90% of all the men on the planet have their foreskins. Kinda makes sense that something's wrong with circumcision then, huh?

10. A circumcised penis is LESS PENIS!!!!! Guys, don't you care about that?

11. Parents who defend circumcising their children do so because they are totally ignorant to reality and refuse to admit they made a mistake. But the truth still doesn't hurt as much as circumcision.

12. Circumcision is an act of DESTRUCTION. It destroys flesh, blood vessels, muscle tissue, sexual nerves, and much more. It destroys the victims sense of wholeness and their rights. It is destruction and mutilation.

13. Children have DIED due directly to circumcision. People, this is senseless!!!! Do you REALLY want to take the risk?



INARGUABLE FACTS ABOUT HAVING A FORESKIN
1. The individual with a foreskin will always have the knowledge that he is whole and complete and has been allowed to make decisions about his own body himself.

2. A male with a foreskin will experience a higher level of pleasure because his glans will be soft, moist, and clean due to the foreskin's protective sheath (this is exactly what Nature intended).

3. The man's sexual partner will never require lubricants because the foreskin provides a gliding mechanism to the penis, and as stated above, the glans will be soft and moist anyway.

4. A foreskin makes the penis's appearance very beautiful and whole (ever wonder why great art depicts man with a foreskin?).

5. Sexual pleasure is increased immensely not only because the glans is protected, but also because the foreskin itself contains a vast array of sexually sensitive nerves.

6. Men circumcised as an adult say that sex with a foreskin was like seeing in full 3D color, and sex after circumcision is like seeing in flat black and white. Most men circumcised in adulthood were tricked into it by money-hungry doctors.

7. Masturbation is incredibly easier and more pleasurable with a foreskin because no lubricants are needed and less effort is required. There is no need for harsh, severe stimulation like with an insensitive circumcised penis.

8. You don't die from complications due to circumcision when you are not circumcised.

Men, it's time to start acting like men and take back what is rightfully ours! Let's get these laws changed to protect our bodies and the bodies of our children!

I could go on and on about the multitude of things right with having a foreskin and the plethora of things devastatingly wrong with circumcision and its destructive nature

Taken from http://josh.bakehorn.net/circ2.html

here is my question: How can you say that the feeling is missing if it has never been felt? Looking like your father is far better than having to take extra steps to care for something you really don't need anyway. So should we stop taking out appendices in women who have a surgery to their stomach because it is a precaution? Then let them die later of a burst appendix? duh.

deb

Why do I always miss the good stuff.. :/

Advocates of circumcision tend to be less intelligent, less cultured, narrow-minded, bitter people with a lot to learn (and usually over 25). This is from extensive, real-life observation. And please, don't send me email saying, "Duh, I have a Ph.D., so that automatically makes me right, and I am for circumcision!"
Really now? I could have sworn that it was a decision based on each family. Let me ask you this, how many men do you know go around saying they wish their parents hadn't circumcised them? I have yet to meet one, and I would consider the percent to be fairly low, given that we adapt to what we are accustomed to. Therefore most circumcised men have no problem being so, and may even say they prefer it that way.

1. Sorry, but a Ph.D. does NOT automatically make you more intelligent than everyone else.

2. If you agree with non-consentual circumcision, you CAN'T be intelligent. It simply goes against the principles of intelligence! Think about it! Just out of curiousity, what makes you more intelligent then everyone else again?

Now let us review some of the real FACTS about circumcision that are totally INARGUABLE!Which you fail to list.

1. When an infant or child is circumcised, they did NOT make the decision. This makes it a VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS. As an infant they are unable to make desicision for themselves, therefore it is a parent or guardians responsibility to make such desicision that they cannot. Being that circumcision is easier done on an infant then a grown man, the responsibility of said child would then fall on to the parents.

2. Circumcision CANNOT prevent penile cancer, never has and never will. Circumcised men get penile cancer, too, and at just the same rate (if not MORE often) as intact men. Actually, no. The rate is very low for a circumcised and un-circumcised penis.

3. Circumcision ALWAYS causes irreparable loss of sexual pleasure. Men circumcised in adulthood say this loss is as much as 90%!!! Well not according to my last boyfriend. ;P You can't really be robbed of something you've never actually had, right? I too have heard that men that are uncut do experience more pleasure while having intercourse, however that does not devalue another man's experiences. You cannot compare something that was never there to begin with.

4. People who say that circumcision doesn't affect or only slightly affects sexuality have NOT experienced BOTH WORLDS (and are talking thus out of their ass). And you have?

5. There is no such thing as a "covenant with God" that makes circumcision mandatory for any religion. There are many religions that believe that circumcision is important, whether I agree with it or not. Both Jewish and Islamic faiths believe in circumcision. They may not say it is necessary to circumcise, but it can definetly be an important part of their religion. Again not that I agree with this as a reasoning, but still.

7. Circumcised men are FAR more likely to acquire erectile dysfunction (impotence). For one thing, during circumcision, the blood supply of the penis is DRASTICALLY altered, and many blood vessels are destroyed. Since erection relies on blood, it's easy to see why this is so detrimental. More importantly, erectile dysfunctions can be caused by the severe loss of sexual pleasure from circumcision, and the constant callusing of the glans penis. By old age, the circumcised man's glans is no more sensitive than his elbow. It's no wonder the old guys can't get it up! That sounds more like speculation to me, which is far from fact.

Taken from the American Academy of Pediatrics (http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZJZMEMH4C&sub_cat=1)

Medical Benefits of Circumcision:

A lower risk of urinary tract infections (UTIs). A circumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 1,000 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life; an uncircumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 100 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life.

A lower risk of getting cancer of the penis. However, this type of cancer is very rare in both circumcised and uncircumcised males.

A slightly lower risk of getting sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including HIV, the AIDS virus.

Prevention of foreskin infections.

Prevention of phimosis, a condition in uncircumcised males that makes foreskin retraction impossible.

8. Circumcision renders a penis's appearance rather ugly and sickly. Hey, it's MISSING parts! That's NOT NORMAL!!!!!!! That is a personal opinion, and certainly not mine.

9. Nearly 90% of all the men on the planet have their foreskins. Kinda makes sense that something's wrong with circumcision then, huh? Should I even bother asking where you got that information from? Or better yet where they page you are quoting all of this from, got those statistics. Even if that were true, how is that evidence against circumcision again?

10. A circumcised penis is LESS PENIS!!!!! Guys, don't you care about that? Is that suppost to be directed at the guys on here who have been circumcised?

11. Parents who defend circumcising their children do so because they are totally ignorant to reality and refuse to admit they made a mistake. But the truth still doesn't hurt as much as circumcision. Parents who get their child circumcise do so because it is there desicion to make. Most will do it because the father is circumcise and they do not want the child to feel "different". I highly doubt they feel guilt about it later on. More over, I highly doubt the boy is going to care later on in life..

13. Children have DIED due directly to circumcision. People, this is senseless!!!! Do you REALLY want to take the risk? No child has ever died in a hospital from circumcision. Ever. You're talking about a cultural difference where they may not have the means or antiseptics as we do here.

INARGUABLE FACTS ABOUT HAVING A FORESKIN
Taken from http://josh.bakehorn.net/circ2.htmlNot worth quoting.

Hey why don't you try posting your own words, and not some preach from some very misinformed page. Just because some dude makes a page against circumsicion, that does not make it true. I happens to be their opinion, and apparently yours. Although I wouldn't actually know, given you seem to have no actual opinion yourself. Is it really that fun to cut and paste?

BTW, I don't plan on circumcising any of my children.

4. A foreskin makes the penis's appearance very beautiful and whole (ever wonder why great art depicts man with a foreskin?).

Well, I guess Michelangelo wasted three years of his life...

All the pics of David I've seen it looks like he's circumsized, but please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong.

One boy had his member burned off completely, and his parents tried to convince him he was a girl until he was 14.


Whhhhhat?

evenindeath

ourlove
goeson

Yeah, you didn't hear about that? It was all over the news, 20/20 or 48 Hours or whatever. Apparently the circumcision went terribly wrong, so the doctors treated it like a case of indeterminate sex and "performed a sex change on him." They even constructed a vagina. The doctors told the parents to raise him as a girl, so they did. But he was never a very feminine girl. He hated wearing dresses, and wouldn't play with dolls. He always felt wrong, and when he was 14, he confronted his parents with his attraction to girls and his feelings of not belonging in his own body. They finally admitted the mistake, and felt terrible for it. I can't remember how it turned out exactly, but he's now living as a man, albeit sans penis. Sad, sad story. But, it must be noted, EXTREMELY rare.

I don't know if I'll actually circumcise my sons. Hopefully it'll be a while before I have to make that decision. But I was highly offended by that random dude's overgeneralizations, and I had to respond.

<3 Mary

Well, I guess Michelangelo wasted three years of his life...

All the pics of David I've seen it looks like he's circumsized, but please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong.
Since David belonged to the Jewish faith, he was most likely cut. So I'm not surprised if he is represented that way in the painting.

define great art...

no, seriously. defy the entirety of the 20th century, i dare you.

HAHA! I knew it!

naaaaanaaaaaaa =P

Since David belonged to the Jewish faith, he was most likely cut. So I'm not surprised if he is represented that way in the painting.


btw, mic's david isn't a painting. it's a sculpture.

INARGUABLE FACTS ABOUT HAVING A FORESKIN

4. A foreskin makes the penis's appearance very beautiful and whole

OK, dude... having a foreskin does NOT make a penis beautiful. NOTHING can do that... the male genitals can be described in many ways - flacid, proud, shrivelled, relaxed, occasionally scary - but NEVER beautiful.

The soft curve of a woman's cheek is beautiful... the orange glow of a perfect sunset... a summer storm... these things are beautiful.

Male genitals, on the other hand, are pretty monstrous. If you saw them detached and wriggling about the floor, you'd beat them to death with a rolled up magazine...

btw, mic's david isn't a painting. it's a sculpture.

I knoooow. My brain farted. I was picturing Birth of Man when I posted that for some reason.

The Baroque David is the better sculpture. He looks like he's about to kick ass. Mic's David is just like "Hey, what up? I'm naked."
:D

Male genitals, on the other hand, are pretty monstrous. If you saw them detached and wriggling about the floor, you'd beat them to death with a rolled up magazine...

I'd be too freaked out to move. That would make for a great horror/porn film.

You know I have a few piercings. Every time I get another I lose a piece of skin in the needle. I love it. I guess if you want to fight the "it's natural" clause you should probably do so in the nude... and not on the computer, it's not natural. Hypocrite.

Wow. This thread just got interesting

1. Sorry, but a Ph.D. does NOT automatically make you more intelligent than everyone else. I know all of these dumbasses who are doctors. They got through med school and they're complete idiots. They perform neurosurgery and make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Again, real idiots. I think that they all post in the 'Talk to the Band' Forum.

3. Circumcision ALWAYS causes irreparable loss of sexual pleasure. Men circumcised in adulthood say this loss is as much as 90%!!! 1. I hear that very few men do it in adulthood.
2. Actually, that area is more sensitive than the rest of the penis.
3. I've walked around Mike's 'David' in Florence. He's clipped. Sorry this pictures isn't so good but it'll do: http://www.sealetter.com/artwork/cprdavart.jpg
4. If you're calling 'great western art' renaissance christian work from roughly 1400-1550, then the preferred depiction of the penis was clipped. And believe me, I've seen A LOT of work from the particular era.
A circumcised penis is LESS PENIS!!!!! Guys, don't you care about that? It doesn't change the overall size. Its only a small bit of flesh that isn't there.

It destroys the victims sense of wholeness and their rights. Actually, I feel ok.

Wow. This thread just got interesting

I know all of these dumbasses who are doctors. They got through med school and they're complete idiots. They perform neurosurgery and make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Again, real idiots. I think that they all post in the 'Talk to the Band' Forum.
Hon, not to pick at you (and I agree with you, believe me), Ph.D.s are not medical doctors. M.D.s are medical doctors.

Actually, I feel ok.
And I'm glad to hear it.

<3 Mary

this nearly made me cry

by Marilyn Fayre Milos



I didn't know what circumcision was when I consented to have my three sons circumcised. My doctor had told me the surgery was a necessary health measure, that it didn't hurt, and that it only took a moment to perform... like cutting the umbilical cord, I thought. I certainly wasn't prepared when, in nursing school several years later, I saw the surgery for the first time.

We students filed into the newborn nursery to find a baby strapped spread*eagle to a plastic board on a counter top across the room. He was struggling against his restraints - tugging, whimpering, and then crying helplessly. No one was tending the infant, but when I asked my instructor if I could comfort him she said "Wait till the doctor gets here." I wondered how a teacher of the healing arts could watch someone suffer and not offer assistance. I wondered about the doctor's power which could intimidate others from following protective instincts. When he did arrive, I immediately asked the doctor it I could help the baby. He told me to put my finger into the baby's mouth; I did, and the baby sucked. I stroked his little head and spoke softly to him. He began to relax and was momentarily quiet.

The silence was soon broken by a piercing scream - the baby's reaction to having his foreskin pinched and crushed as the doctor attached the clamp to his penis. The shriek intensified when the doctor inserted an instrument between the foreskin and the glans (head of the penis), tearing the two structures apart. (They are normally attached to each other during infancy so the foreskin can protect the sensitive glans from urine and faeces.) The baby started shaking his head back and forth - the only part of his body free to move - as the doctor used another clamp to crush the foreskin lengthwise, which he then cut. This made the opening of the foreskin large enough to insert a circumcision instrument, the device used to protect the glans from being severed during the surgery.

The baby began to gasp and choke, breathless from his shrill continuous screams. How could anyone say circumcision is painless when the suffering is so obvious? My bottom lip began to quiver, tears filled my eyes and spilled over. I found my own sobs difficult to contain. How much longer could this go on?

During the next stage of the surgery, the doctor crushed the foreskin against the circumcision instrument and then, finally, amputated it. The baby was limp, exhausted, spent.

I had not been prepared, nothing could have prepared me, for this experience. To see a part of this baby's penis being cut off - without an anaesthetic - was devastating. But even more shocking was the doctor's comment, barely audible several octaves below the piercing screams of the baby, "There's no medical reason for doing this." I couldn't believe my ears, my knees became weak, and I felt sick to my stomach. I couldn't believe that medical professionals, dedicated to helping and healing, could inflict such pain and anguish on innocent babies unnecessarily.

What had I allowed my own babies to endure? and why?

The course of my life was changed on that day in 1979. I have now dedicated my life to bringing an end to this horrendous practice.

taken from http://members.ozemail.com.au/~stormboy/circumcision/circwish.htm

i know this isnt my opinions but when i saw this i had to post it here
i beleive that this practice is totally unesasary and should be out lawed

The course of my life was changed on that day in 1979. I have now dedicated my life to bringing an end to this horrendous practice.Good thing they use local anesthetics like Xylocaine, with methods like the dorsal penile nerve block, otherwise that sort of thing may actually still take place in any civilized country.

Seriously, there is no reason not to use the anesthetics, and if a circumcision is truly what the parents desires, the pain can be significantly reduced, if not entirely.

OK, dude... having a foreskin does NOT make a penis beautiful. NOTHING can do that... the male genitals can be described in many ways - flacid, proud, shrivelled, relaxed, occasionally scary - but NEVER beautiful.

The soft curve of a woman's cheek is beautiful... the orange glow of a perfect sunset... a summer storm... these things are beautiful.

Male genitals, on the other hand, are pretty monstrous. If you saw them detached and wriggling about the floor, you'd beat them to death with a rolled up magazine...
Ahahahahaha!!! Thanks for that mental image...

My roomies are all wondering what the hell I'm laughing so hard about.

I am not circumcised. I live in the US in Minnesota. I would never circumcise any of my sons. I have had not one infection not even a uti as a infant. I have had not problems what so ever. I have found my foreskin very useful in certain circumstances. That’s why I like having it. I have never been teased for it. Girls I meet that saw it wondered sometimes if there was any thing different at all some did not even know there was on till I told them. I was the only one in my family not circumcised. So in general all the problems associated with having a foreskin have not effected me. So if the chances of having a problem with it were so great I should guaranteed had one.

I am not circumcised. I live in the US in Minnesota. I would never circumcise any of my sons.Do they not use commas in Minnesota, by any chance?

So in general all the problems associated with having a foreskin have not effected me. So if the chances of having a problem with it were so great I should guaranteed had one.Unfortunetly, you don't make up the entire mass population. Believe it or not. (http://www.medicirc.org/meditopics/statistics/more_info_statistics.html)

Seriously, there is no reason not to use the anesthetics, and if a circumcision is truly what the parents desires, the pain can be significantly reduced, if not entirely.


I honestly don't believe it is actually possible to make the pain acceptable there..... :\
Sadly I had a medical exam there, and let me tell you that it wasn't the best day of my life! (and I was aneasthetized....)

Seriously I don't wish this to my worst enemy !

I honestly don't believe it is actually possible to make the pain acceptable there..... :\
Sadly I had a medical exam there, and let me tell you that it wasn't the best day of my life! (and I was aneasthetized....)

Seriously I don't wish this to my worst enemy !Cool, you remember being a 12 hour old infant? I really hope that wasn't the best day of your life.. ;P

Cool, you remember being a 12 hour old infant? I really hope that wasn't the best day of your life.. ;P


ahah no... that was...8 months ago....
You think a twelve hours baby doesn't feel as much pain as a grown up?


*god, this probe was huge http://forums.megadeth.com/images/smilies/adam.gif *

ahah no... that was...8 months ago....
You think a twelve hours baby doesn't feel as much pain as a grown up?


*god, this probe was huge http://forums.megadeth.com/images/smilies/adam.gif *I honestly don't know exactly how much pain a 12 hour old baby feels while being circumcised..

However, I bet your experience was one you would have rathered to have forgetten, which is exactly the idea behind it being done while they are newborns.

That is more or less the thinking behind it. If you believe your child would be healthier, and wanted to limit their risks or UTI's, balanoposthitis, invasive penile cancer, and STD's, doing so as an infant is more ideal. I bet if you ask any circumcised male what his worst experience in life was, it would not be the day he was cut.

I honestly don't know exactly how much pain a 12 hour old baby feels while being circumcised..

However, I bet your experience was one you would have rathered to have forgetten, which is exactly the idea behind it being done while they are newborns.

That is more or less the thinking behind it. If you believe your child would be healthier, and wanted to limit their risks or UTI's, balanoposthitis, invasive penile cancer, and STD's, doing so as an infant is more ideal. I bet if you ask any circumcised male what his worst experience in life was, it would not be the day he was cut.


You are right. If their parents wants to circumcise them -whatever the reason is- they better do it at that time.

http://forums.megadeth.com/images/smilies/linkbiggrin.gif

Do they not use commas in Minnesota, by any chance?

Unfortunetly, you don't make up the entire mass population. Believe it or not. (http://www.medicirc.org/meditopics/statistics/more_info_statistics.html)
I am sorry what was your point? Saying that because I am in the minority that some how the fact that I have had no problems what so ever means nothing? I really don’t really care that I am in the minority. In fact I am so happy that I am I tell girls that I am not just to see there response to it. I am very much love being different I guess that is just me. It is my individuality that girls love and not my foreskin. All I have met so far did not even care about it. In fact some were very curious as to what it was and why it was there. I love getting hand jobs with it there to hehe.

I honestly don't know exactly how much pain a 12 hour old baby feels while being circumcised..

However, I bet your experience was one you would have rathered to have forgetten, which is exactly the idea behind it being done while they are newborns.

That is more or less the thinking behind it. If you believe your child would be healthier, and wanted to limit their risks or UTI's, balanoposthitis, invasive penile cancer, and STD's, doing so as an infant is more ideal. I bet if you ask any circumcised male what his worst experience in life was, it would not be the day he was cut.

Since when is there direct evidence that it guaranteed will reduce UTI's penile cancer and stds. So far the studies I have read say there is a potential prevention of it and the studies have some unanswered factors that need to be further studied to know for sure. Well guess what about Uti's they actually are treatable can you believe that!!!! And stds well not having sex or using protections does actually prevent your son from getting them wow I cant believe all of this!!! And o ya penile cancer did you know men get is so much that as many as 10 out of 1 million men actually get it. Wow penile cancer is so conmen you know every man who is not circumcised is dying of it right at this moment except me!!!!!

I am sorry what was your point? Saying that because I am in the minority that some how the fact that I have had no problems what so ever means nothing?

The point was that you don't count for the entire uncircumcised male population of the world.

I love getting hand jobs with it there to hehe.

Because you just know the difference between being circumcised and uncircumcised, correct?

Since when is there direct evidence that it guaranteed will reduce UTI's penile cancer and stds. So far the studies I have read say there is a potential prevention of it and the studies have some unanswered factors that need to be further studied to know for sure. Well guess what about Uti's they actually are treatable can you believe that!!!! And stds well not having sex or using protections does actually prevent your son from getting them wow I cant believe all of this!!! And o ya penile cancer did you know men get is so much that as many as 10 out of 1 million men actually get it. Wow penile cancer is so conmen you know every man who is not circumcised is dying of it right at this moment except me!!!!!

You really need to read the links in this thread, of course, you probably didn't read this entire thread. Why should you? You know everything about what you're talking about, right? If you had read it, maybe you would have seen Angelia's post where she said it's rare for any man to get penile cancer.

This has got to be the strangest debate I've ever read in my life. Yet rather interesting and amusing at the same time.

But anyway, both my brother and my father are circumcised, my brother at birth, my father when he was in his late 20s, I believe. So, naturally, that was his own choice... From what I've been told anyway.

So, I guess living in a family were the men are circumcised, I guess if I have sons, I'll have them circumcised also, if it is okay with the father. I do believe it is tider and easier...but that's just my opinion. :)

The point was that you don't count for the entire uncircumcised male population of the world.



Because you just know the difference between being circumcised and uncircumcised, correct?



You really need to read the links in this thread, of course, you probably didn't read this entire thread. Why should you? You know everything about what you're talking about, right? If you had read it, maybe you would have seen Angelia's post where she said it's rare for any man to get penile cancer.

Sorry I was just having some fun with the debate may be I took it to far. I know I do not account for all of the worlds uncircumcised population. But the only area that has had problems with being uncircumcised is in Africa. Why only Africa these problems with it seem to occur why are there no studies in other countries that are closer to our own. how about this idea do a studies right here in the US to see if there is a difference? I guess the evidence they present me just does not sit with me. I believe there are significant other factors that are being left out on purpose in order to make people happy that chose to circumcise there children. I read her posts I see what she said I just don’t agree that the benefits are actually there I guess. As I said earlier the benefits are so small that you might see the very same benefits for removing other parts of the body based off of how the studies are done.
I am very sorry you thought I was being offensive I just was pointing out facts thats all.

I am not sure, it's not done much anymore, is it? If you want to, go ahead, if not, fine. For me, though, I think I would have my son circumsised.

I am not sure, it's not done much anymore, is it? If you want to, go ahead, if not, fine. For me, though, I think I would have my son circumsised.
What makes you think you would need to circumcise your son? I was just curious. I am warning you though if you post and say your reasons some people might jump all over you and possibly call you names. I have seen it on other boards I personally don’t agree with it but they do it. So respond if you wont take offence to the responses.

Because you just know the difference between being circumcised and uncircumcised, correct?


In a way I do talking to guys about being circumcised and having to use loob all the time to masturbate. I have never touched the stuff in my hole life. I will never need to use it to masturbate or get hand jobs.

What makes you think you would need to circumcise your son? I was just curious. I am warning you though if you post and say your reasons some people might jump all over you so respond if you wont take offence responses.
I didn't see where she added the word "need". But yes, it would have been nice to see her reasons for what she chooses.

And no one is being "jumped all over" here. You stating that shows that you are the one taking offense to someone debating with you (oh wow, are we in that forum?), and the suggestion that you should read the entire thread before posting.

I didn't see where she added the word "need". But yes, it would have been nice to see her reasons for what she chooses.

And no one is being "jumped all over" here. You stating that shows that you are the one taking offense to someone debating with you (oh wow, are we in that forum?), and the suggestion that you should read the entire thread before posting.
Ok Ok I just read the hole thread your right no one is being jumped all over sorry. I was wrong. Some people when debating can take offence to just about anything from I have observed. I guess I am new to this forum and debating on it in general. Like I said I read the hole thread and your right.

I really don't think circumcision is much of a deal over here (Scotland).
Unless I'm just being completely ignorant again ;)

I don't know anybody who is, but then again it's not something I ask people :p

I am sorry what was your point? Saying that because I am in the minority that some how the fact that I have had no problems what so ever means nothing? I really don’t really care that I am in the minority.You're actually not a minority at all, but that does not mean you make up an entire population, either.

I love getting hand jobs with it there to hehe.As oppose to you getting handjobs without your foreskin there? I am pretty sure all guys like getting handjobs.. period.

Since when is there direct evidence that it guaranteed will reduce UTI's penile cancer and stds. So far the studies I have read say there is a potential prevention of it and the studies have some unanswered factors that need to be further studied to know for sure. First off, it's science we're talking about here, nothing is guaranteed. Second, significantly reducing your chances of such problems, is actually a pretty big deal.

I am not pulling this out of thin air Shawn, I am just relaying some known statistics to you, and you can be the judge from there. Nobody is telling you that you not being circumcised is a bad thing, or that you're guaranteed to have an STD or penile cancer, I am merely suggesting that before you completely banish the idea, you may want to atleast consider the possible benefits of someone circumcising their child. No parents wants to put their child through any pain be it as little as it may be, especially not within the most precision moments of their existence. But given everything that we do know, the idea is not really so bad.

Wow penile cancer is so conmen you know every man who is not circumcised is dying of it right at this moment except me!!!!!You're odds of getting it are significantly higher.

Departments of Genetics and Pediatrics, Kaiser Permanente Medical Care Program of Northern California (http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/2754/newuti2000.htm)
Objective. To assess the effect of newborn circumcision on the incidence and medical costs of urinary tract infection (UTI) during the first year of life for patients in a large health maintenance organization. Setting. Kaiser Permanente Medical Care Program of Northern California (KPNC). Patients. The population consisted of members of KPNC. The study group consisted of a cohort of 28 812 infants delivered during 1996 at KPNC hospitals; of the 14 893 male infants in the group, 9668 (64.9%) were circumcised. A second cohort of 20 587 infants born in 1997 and monitored for 12 months was analyzed to determine incidence rates. Design. Retrospective study of all infants consecutively delivered at 12 facilities. Outcome Measures. Diagnosis of UTI was determined from the KPNC computerized database using the International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision code for inpatients and KPNC Outpatient Summary Clinical Record codes for outpatients. A sample of 52 patient charts was reviewed to confirm the International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision and KPNC Outpatient Summary Clinical Record codes and provide additional data. Results. Infants <1 year old who were born in 1996 had 446 UTIs (292 in females; 154 in males); 132 (86%) of the UTIs in males occurred in uncircumcised boys. The mean total cost of managing UTI was 2 times as high in males ($1111) as in females ($542). This higher total cost reflected the higher rate of hospital admission in uncircumcised males with UTIs (27.3%) compared with females (7.5%); mean age at hospitalization for UTI was 2.5 months old for uncircumcised boys and 6.5 months old for girls. In 1996, total cost of managing UTI in uncircumcised males ($155 628) was 10 times higher than for circumcised males ($15 466) despite the fact that uncircumcised males made up only 35.1% of the male patient base in 1996, reflecting the more frequent occurrence of UTI in uncircumcised males (132 episodes) than in circumcised males (22 episodes), and the larger number of hospital admissions in uncircumcised males (38) than in circumcised males (4). The incidence of UTI in the first year of life was 1:47 (2.15%) in uncircumcised males, 1:455 (.22%) in circumcised males, and 1:49 (2.05%) in females. The odds ratio of UTI in uncircumcised:circumcised males was 9.1:1. Conclusions. Newborn circumcision results in a 9.1-fold decrease in incidence of UTI during the first year of life as well as markedly lower UTI-related medical costs and rate of hospital admissions. Newborn circumcision during the first year of life is, thus, a valuable preventive health measure, particularly in the first 3 months of life, when uncircumcised males are most likely to be hospitalized with severe UTI.

But the only area that has had problems with being uncircumcised is in Africa.Funny, I don't remember reading that every statistic put forth by the medical institution, could be contributed to just one specific country, especially being Africa.

how about this idea do a studies right here in the US to see if there is a difference?Every link I supplied you with, was from The America Academy of Pediatrics. Are you sure you read my links?

As I said earlier the benefits are so small that you might see the very same benefits for removing other parts of the body based off of how the studies are done. You could.. or you could just get circumcised, and not have to get any body part removed. Hmmm...

In a way I do talking to guys about being circumcised and having to use loob all the time to masturbate. I have never touched the stuff in my hole life. I will never need to use it to masturbate or get hand jobs.Putting lube on does not lessen the experience, and considering you just admitted to have never used it yourself, how do you know it's not better?

I am sorry what was your point? Saying that because I am in the minority that some how the fact that I have had no problems what so ever means nothing?

It doesn't mean a damned thing regardless of whether you are in the minority or the majority.

You are, by definition, a single data point.

It is possible to die from the complications of the smallpox vaccine, that your mother had one and probably suffered no ill consequences is irrelevant, the question is a matter of percentages and distribution curves.

You not being circumcised and not having had any trouble is completely irrelevant from the point of view of debate.

Note: Not all circumcised men have to use lubricant to masturbate. Just as for uncircumcised men, it's an option that may be more comfortable or good-feeling.

<3 Mary

You're actually not a minority at all, but that does not mean you make up an entire population, either.

As oppose to you getting handjobs without your foreskin there? I am pretty sure all guys like getting handjobs.. period.

First off, it's science we're talking about here, nothing is guaranteed. Second, significantly reducing your chances of such problems, is actually a pretty big deal.



Significantly? So what you are trying to tell me is that small chance of getting something = a huge gain when you reduce the chances of getting when they are so small of getting it in the first place.
Ok here is Uti now

There is evidence that circumcision results in an approximately 12-fold reduction in the incidence of UTI during infancy. The overall incidence of UTI in male infants appears to be 1% to 2%.
Look at the chance of actually getting it in the first place 1% to 2%.


Now penile cancer lets look at that you said your self it is extremely rare to actually get it

The risk factors for penile cancer include HPV infection, smoking, and age (most cases are diagnosed after the age of 50). Treatment of psoriasis might also increase penile cancer risk. The ACS has concluded that the presence of a foreskin is NOT a risk factor for penile cancer.

The best way to prevent penile cancer is to not smoke and to engage in safe sex practices.

The ACS estimates 1570 new cases of penile cancer will be diagnosed in 2004, and 270 men will die from it. Penile cancer accounts of 0.1% of all cancer deaths in the US. This is a very rare disease which does not affect young children.

See this statement is from the American Cancer Society them selves so how does circumcision prevent penile cancer again?

Now Aids and sexually transmitted diseases. lets look at that. You do know that the studies done in Africa were done on none modernized culture. On tribes right? So how does that reflect upon our society in terms of benefits when we have access to protection such as condoms and education. The two cultures are significantly different. If you want to prove the benefit why not do a study on aids and other stds right here in the US. Because then it would mean something. Plus there is a thing called not having sex. Which is a much better solution then just reducing the chances of getting a std. I hate to say it

but have you seen a circumcised guy having unprotected sex with a infected partner and not get the std?

So now the only two possible benefits are the prevention of infections and phimoses. I just learned recently even circumcised guys get balantis but they don’t need treatment because there foreskin is gone so they don’t notice it. Plus even circumcised guys get phimoses if they have a loose circ.





Putting lube on does not lessen the experience, and considering you just admitted to have never used it yourself, how do you know it's not better?



Now I have tried lube and I know I hate it. I have tried just about every type there is. And I just plain don’t like it.

One more thing on UTIs there has been a study recently that says the foreskin has won a clean bill of health. Due to anomalies.


NEW ORLEANS-The maligned foreskin has won a clean bill of health in infants’ urinary-tract infections.

In a prospective study at St. Louis University of 52 circumcised and 56 uncircumcised infants under 6 months with a first UTI, 72 had clinical pyelonephritis. Yet circumcision status (35 were circumcised) wasn’t significant, while anatomical obstructions were.

Abnormal anatomy was responsible for infections in 40 circumcised infants and 42 uncircumcised ones, says Dr. George Steinhardt. Of the 26 boys with normal genitourinary anatomy, 12 were circumcised and 14 were not.

Structural abnormalities, evenly divided between the groups, included 76 with reflux and 23 with obstructions, the team told the American Academy of Pediatrics meeting here. The rest had triad, valves, or bladder diverticulum.

http://www.physweekly.com/archive/97/12_22_97/cu2.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella
I am not sure, it's not done much anymore, is it? If you want to, go ahead, if not, fine. For me, though, I think I would have my son circumsised.

What makes you think you would need to circumcise your son? I was just curious. I am warning you though if you post and say your reasons some people might jump all over you and possibly call you names. I have seen it on other boards I personally don’t agree with it but they do it. So respond if you wont take offence to the responses.


I know people might have different opinions, but I just think I would have my kid circumcised. I guess it's the parents decision, isn't it? I can't say why I would do it though. Maybe it would be best to let the kid grow up and decide for himself what he wants. With all the horror stories about it...it makes me think I wouldn't risk putting my kid through that. But on the other hand, I guess it's the parents choice, because theres no law saying that you cannot have your baby circumcised until he's a certain age.

Another UTI studie saying there is no difference in circumcised and uncircumcised.


http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2004.05014.x/abs



Effect of circumcision on urinary tract infection after successful antireflux surgery
Cheol Kwak*, Seung-June Oh*, Ahnkie Lee* and Hwang Choi*

OBJECTIVE

To evaluate whether circumcision during antireflux surgery can reduce the incidence of urinary tract infection (UTI) after successful ureteric reimplantation in patients with primary vesico-ureteric reflux (VUR).

PATIENTS AND METHODS

Children who had undergone antireflux surgery for primary VUR were divided into group 1 (27, circumcised at the time of antireflux surgery at the parents' request) and group 2 (50, those not circumcised). All antireflux operations were by the Cohen method. Regular urine samples were cultured to detect UTI, which was defined as a single species with >105 colony-forming units/mL in a midstream voided specimen. Numbers of UTI episodes before and after surgery were compared between the groups, with 99mTc-dimercaptosuccinic acid (DMSA) renal scans also taken in all patients. Each scan was blindly reviewed in terms of the size, number and zonal location of cortical defects, based on morphology. Interval changes were categorised as improved, no change, progressed, and new scar formation, and compared between the groups. Prophylactic antibiotics were maintained until the follow-up studies at 4-6 months after surgery.

RESULTS

There was no significant difference between the groups in age at the time of operation (mean 42.4 vs 47.4 months), the age at the first documented UTI (mean 26.5 vs 29.3 months), reflux grade, or number of UTI episodes and renal parenchymal scarring on DMSA before surgery. There was no significant difference between the groups in the number of UTI episodes at a mean (range) follow-up of 151.3 (114-207) months after antireflux surgery. Also there was no significant morphological change on follow-up renal scans and no difference between the groups.

CONCLUSION

These findings suggest that circumcision during antireflux surgery has no effect on the incidence of postoperative UTI.