19:32 AEST Wed Oct 20 2004


A plea for clemency to Singapore's president is the last hope for a Melbourne man facing the gallows for drug smuggling.

Nguyen Tuong Van, 24, could become the first Australian to be executed in Singapore after the country's highest court on Wednesday dismissed his appeal against his conviction and a mandatory death sentence for drug trafficking.

Nguyen's legal team and the Australian government will now make an application for clemency directly to Singapore's president, S.R. Nathan.

His Melbourne-based lawyer, Lex Lasry QC, maintained that Nguyen was not a hardened criminal.

"There are particular aspects of the case and of our client that we think justify clemency being given to him in these circumstances," he told ABC radio from Singapore.

But history shows these appeals have little chance of success, with just six being granted over 35 years, according to human rights organisation Amnesty International.

Singapore has staunchly defended its use of the death penalty and maintained that foreigners are not to be exempted from its execution laws.

Half of the more than 400 people hanged since 1991 have been foreigners.

Nguyen has been on death row at the notorious Changi prison since March, when he was found guilty of smuggling 396.2 grams of heroin - 26 times the limit for the mandatory death penalty.

Arriving from Cambodia, he was arrested in transit at Singapore's Changi airport in December 2002, when police found a packet of heroin strapped to his back and another in his hand luggage after a routine check.

His lawyers argued in the appeal that Nguyen's confessions to Singapore police were inadmissible, the integrity of the heroin presented as evidence was compromised, and Singapore's death penalty was unconstitutional.

All three arguments were rejected by the three-member appeal court led by Chief Justice Yong Pung How.

Wearing a loose prison uniform of orange overalls, with his hands shackled, Nguyen stood mostly expressionless as the verdict was read to a courtroom that included Australia's High Commissioner and his mother, Kim.

Nguyen, a former salesman from Mulgrave in Melbourne, told police soon after his arrest that he had carried the drugs on behalf of a Sydney-based drug syndicate in a bid to pay off legal fees owed by his twin brother.

Nguyen and his brother were born in a transit camp in Malaysia after their mother fled Vietnam in 1980.


I was just wondering what you guys thought about this? Personally, I'm still up in the air about it all. I respect the fact that other countries have their own laws and when in that country you play by their rules. However I'm still a bit iffy about it all. I'd need to know a little bit more about it, but if the crime was committed to help his twin brother, in my eyes that sort of changes it a bit. Although I do realise that doesn't change the fact that it was wrong and that you have to stick to same rules for everyone.


So yeah... opinions?




OMFG I MADE A THREAD :D

We can go into a country forecably as they pose a threat to another. It comes to an Australian citizen, however dumb they may be, they should be treated in the same respect and given some form of chance to get them saved from death apart from 'file form a,b,c and sign on the dotted lines, then I'll just tell you no anyway.'

Whatever racial/social/economic standing, and whatever incredibly stupid fucking positions they get themselves into, they are registered as a citizen of this country, none else. Any legal reprimand should be done in a society in which they have been raised in, from morals and rules they have been taught. I don't think anyone could get a fair trial in a different country, which poses a threat to pretty much the entire legal system and how it works. Hah, did I say works?

My opinion:
Up yours.
Give him back.

In Singapore, you can be flogged for spitting in the street. Seems a little harsh. I think that any countries with draconian laws are behind on basic human rights. That said, Heroin does kill quite regularly however.

Andy

I'll agree with the basis of herion, plus he was carrying nearly four hundred grams on him at the time. Its drug trafficking no matter what way you look at it, but our laws aren't going to have the guy necked. If he goes to jail to be somebodies bitch it doesn't bother me, but I'd rather see it done over here.

personally, im against the death penalty
it doesnt really prove anything imo, and whos to say the people behind the execution are any better than the person being executed?

then again, every country does have its own set of laws.

still, i dont think anyone should have the death penalty.

-Dave

12 years ago, an American kid vandalized a school, and was caned. Singaporians are quite consistent on enforcing their laws and punishment. Even though the American gov't tried to win his release, they still carried it out... in surprise.

In the future, international drug traffic agents should look up local laws so they know all risks as to what their getting into.

I'm regret the his parents will soon be mourning his loss. However, there's really not much that can be done about his situation.

My opinion:
Up yours.
Give him back.
I disagree with you on this one. When you enter a country, you agree to adhere to its laws, even if they are harsh in your eyes. If you willingly break one of these laws, you should be punished according to the countries laws. The guy wasn't forced into carrying four hundred grams of herion and its not like he was unaware it was illegal to do so. Yeah, its sad but he would have known the consequences beforehand. It is completely his own fault and he has no one else to blame for his current situation.

Harsh but true.

This one is really hard to work out.

You have to respect the laws of other countries. Everyone knows what Singapore is like with things like this. But I'd like to see more information about it.

The death penalty is harsh. I do feel bad for this man, but laws are laws, break them and you face the consequences of your actions.

i feel bad for this guy, as i do for that woman who got caught with 4kg of cocaine (i think she was framed tho) but you would have to be soooo stupid to smuggle drugs in and out of countries like Singapore, everyone knows their laws...and i really dont know why anyone would risk it

When you enter a country, you agree to adhere to its laws, even if they are harsh in your eyes. If you willingly break one of these laws, you should be punished according to the countries laws.

That's where I think it is a little off in the sentancing of death sentences. In a non-government hostage suitation where they are threating with execution, everyone is outraged, wants to send troops yadadada, however to sentence a citizen of a different country to death is a completley different story. In accordance to the legal system where the person is from, other countries should at least give some slack when it comes to condemning another countries man to death. Let them haul the guy back home and punish him with our rules.

In my opinion, 'sad but true' really doesn't cut it when it comes something like this...

Harsh but true.
Know much about Australia's drug market?

My opinion:
Up yours.
Give him back.

i agree! bring him home and we will punish him! death penalty is way harsh!

Let them haul the guy back home and punish him with our rules.
So what happens when the citizen committing the crime has no compareable law in their home country? If a man from one of the more backward Muslim states, where adultery is punishable by stoning, came to Australia on an extended stay, met a woman, found out she was having an affair and killed her. Back in his country of origin, he did not commit a crime and therefore his victim and country receives no justice.

i feel bad for this guy, as i do for that woman who got caught with 4kg of cocaine (i think she was framed tho) but you would have to be soooo stupid to smuggle drugs in and out of countries like Singapore, everyone knows their laws...and i really dont know why anyone would risk itUmm, for the huge amounts of CASH that drug mules can make?

From this guy's name, its possible that he is Singaporean and an immigrant to Oz. He should have known MUCH better, but greed reared its ugly head obviously.

Umm, for the huge amounts of CASH that drug mules can make?

.yeah that is definalty worth risking your life for...isant it!:rolleyes:

i say kill the fucker and everyone else who deals in illegal drugs, ive seen how much damage they cause and death penalty isnt enough...

maybe a life of continued torture for drug dealers....

may sound harsh to some ppl, but i think its justified....

So what happens when the citizen committing the crime has no compareable law in their home country? If a man from one of the more backward Muslim states, where adultery is punishable by stoning, came to Australia on an extended stay, met a woman, found out she was having an affair and killed her. Back in his country of origin, he did not commit a crime and therefore his victim and country receives no justice.
I agree with you. A person should be punishe by the law of the country they are in at the time. If somebody went to australia and killed somebody, but was given a small sentence in their own country, or no punishment at all then you guys wouldnt like it.

He committed a crime, he knew the risks, he was caught, he is being punished. End of story. Whether death penalty is a harsh punishment or not is another question - but he needs to be punished, and it needs to be done according to the laws of the country he was smuggling drugs in - no matter what they are. He knew them.

The death sentence was carried out today. He was hung.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/12/01/australia.singapore.reut/index.html

Not sure if Aussies have heard the news yet.

why cant they do the same to the bali bombers? fuck all the trials....kill them!

its sad...i feel sorry for his mother :( i still dont agree with the death penatly..it doesnt seems right that people can just be killed like that, i think he derseved a life sentence, but not death

i say kill the fucker and everyone else who deals in illegal drugs, ive seen how much damage they cause and death penalty isnt enough...

maybe a life of continued torture for drug dealers....

may sound harsh to some ppl, but i think its justified....
lol u tosser! i feel bad for his family, but he new the risks and took the chance. thats why u get so much money for doing it.Every country has different laws religon ect,all which must be respected. its a shame, but the next drug mule might hopfully think twice!

if you do something that stoopid where you know the penalty is death then ya deserve what ya get .

like a lecturer told me . "if you don't wanna get into trouble. DON'T DO ANYTHING STOOPID."

The problem with Aisan countries having such strict drug laws will mean big $$$ for anyone who can get them in. They need substantial laws but not over the top stuff like the death penalty

In brief, my opinion:
- No-one has the right to take away someones life no matter what.
- He DID break the law, he DID know of the penalties and he should DEFINITELY get punished for what he did, but not death...especially not hanging...

I was in Singapore for three weeks, got my tat at Johnny two thumbs, and that is the most beautiful city in the world. It is clean and the people are friendly.

When you know the rules of engagement and you still take the risk then you pay the price. Most drug smugglers know the rules but the money drives them to think differently.

He should be put to death. The government can't show weakness. If they do then their city and way of life will be threatened, if not destroyed. Drugs have no place in society and a government that takes strong stances on drugs should not be held in question when they enforce them.

I feel sorry for his Family!!!! He was carrying the drugs to trade them to pay a debt for his Brother How Awful Must his Brother Feel? It is unfair that he was hanged, When The Bali Bombers And Such are given such feeble sentances.. Yes I Know Different countries... But the principle is the same!!!!

He Should have gotten life, Then He could have been extrodited and brought back to OZ. He Deserved punishment But Death is Way harsh!!! And If we don't put a stop to it an innocent person will be killed,

I think some of the Bali bombers are getting the death penalty. but thats Indonesia, not Singapore. I wouldn't go to Singapore not because of the hanging but because you can pay a heavy price for spitting or littering.

But how is the extremism carried out by the Bali Bombers different to what our governments are doing in other countries which never threatened us?

I think some of the Bali bombers are getting the death penalty. but thats Indonesia, not Singapore. I wouldn't go to Singapore not because of the hanging but because you can pay a heavy price for spitting or littering.

But how is the extremism carried out by the Bali Bombers different to what our governments are doing in other countries which never threatened us?
My Aunty went to Singapore and she reckons she will never go agian... Indonesia has Capital Punisment as well as the Bali 9 and facing Death by firing squad.
Also excellent point about extremisim...

My Aunty went to Singapore and she reckons she will never go agian... Indonesia has Capital Punisment as well as the Bali 9 and facing Death by firing squad.
Also excellent point about extremisim...

My grandmother went to Singapore approx 20 years ago and she recalls she was on a bus. There was a news announcment that a woman found posessing drugs or something was going to be hanged, even though she had two little children :eek:

Some people reckon Capital punishment would reduce the amount of crime. But you would have to enforce it to the extent of taking away basic human rights for it to be effective. America has capital punishment but still has crime and homocide. (I mean no disrespect to US members :))

I thought I would actually get ripped apart for my comment on extremism.

I thought I would actually get ripped apart for my comment on extremism.
You still may just coz I agree it doesn't mean others won't... But that's what i like about you, you posted it even though you knew you'd prolly get ripped apart..

i've been to singapore. not that crash hot i can tell you that much . lol .
only best place was the hotel . but i was there back in 87 . so yeah

You still may just coz I agree it doesn't mean others won't... But that's what i like about you, you posted it even though you knew you'd prolly get ripped apart..

I thougth it would happen almost instantly. So its nice to have time to prepare my response.

i say kill the fucker and everyone else who deals in illegal drugs, ive seen how much damage they cause and death penalty isnt enough...

maybe a life of continued torture for drug dealers....

may sound harsh to some ppl, but i think its justified....

Anyone who takes illegal drugs of their own volition get everything they deserve. They are the only ones responsible and the only ones who can be blamed.

Two more Aussies were given death penalties for drug operation. This time in Indonesia. Taken from here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060214/ts_afp/indonesiaaustraliacrimedrugs_060214100559)...

Two get Indonesia death sentence in drugs trial Tue Feb 14, 5:09 AM ET

Two Australians have been sentenced to death by an Indonesian court for leading a drug ring exporting heroin to Australia through the resort island of Bali.

Two others got life in prison on Tuesday, the second day of sentencing in the case of the so-called Bali Nine, which has irked many in Australia. Two defendants were given life terms on Monday.

Andrew Chan, 21, and Myuran Sukumaran, 24, were both found guilty and given the death penalty in line with the recommendations of prosecutors. The two will join 35 other people on death row in Indonesia for drug offences.

"The message that needs to be heard by traffickers overseas is that if you want to go to Indonesia, do not bring forbidden drugs as the risks are very high," presidential spokesman Dino Patti Djalal said in Jakarta.

In Australia, where the death penalty was abolished more than 20 years ago, Prime Minister John Howard described the actions of Chan and Sukumaran as "stupid" and said their verdicts were a warning to others.

Howard said his government would appeal to the Indonesian government for clemency for the pair but warned that Canberra had no power to overturn the laws of countries with harsh drug laws.

"They are the penalties prescribed by the laws of Indonesia and I don't think anybody is suggesting that the law wasn't carried out," he said, adding that he hoped "every young Australian... will take a lesson from this."

The gang allegedly tried to smuggle a total of 11.2 kilograms of heroin to Australia from the resort island.

Muhammad Rifan, the Indonesian lawyers for both Chan and Sukumaran said he will advise his clients, both of whom remained calm during the reading of their verdicts, to make an appeal.

Judges said Sukumaran had been proven "to have ordered or organized the export of first class narcotics from Bali," and also "funded and arranged the transport and accommodations for his friends".

"According to the teachings of various religions, the death penalty can be justified," said judge Arief Supratman.

"We prepared ourselves mentally. The entire panel of judges prayed according to their respective beliefs. We meditated until we were really convinced that this is the verdict to be made," he said.

Many in Australia were angered after it emerged that the nine Australians were arrested in Indonesia after a tip-off from Australian police.

But Howard defended the police's actions.

"I think that's very unfair, the police are there to protect us from the ravages of drugs," he said

In the first verdicts on Monday, Renae Lawrence, and Scott Rush were each given life sentences. Prosecutors had only asked for a 20-year term for Lawrence, 28, the only woman on trial.

In separate trials Tuesday, judges also followed the recommendations of prosecutors and handed life sentences to Michael Czugaj, 20, and Martin Eric Stephens, 28.

Czugaj, Stephens, Lawrence and Rush were the four alleged carriers arrested at Bali airport while awaiting a flight to Australia. They were caught with packages of heroin allegedly strapped to their bodies.

Czugaj and Stephens remained calm and resigned upon hearing the verdicts. Czugaj's mother and a sister who were watching the trial broke into tears.

Czugaj's lawyer Frans Passar told AFP that his client had told him he was prepared for the eventuality of a life sentence but also said he felt he was innocent.

All four couriers said during the trial that Chan had threatened to kill their families if they did not comply and strap the drugs to their bodies before flying home.

The verdicts on three other defendants are to be announced Wednesday.

I know a lot of people believe the death penalty is justified, but i wonder, are they able to come up with more substantial reasons then "He's a drug dealer" or "look at all the lives that can be saved".

Drug taking like a lot of things is quite often down to choice,there are acceptions I know. Streets could be crawling with drug dealers but if people made the choice to stay away there wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Also, alcohol, nicotine and many other pharmaceutical drugs can be as bad as or worse then illicit substances.

I know that this might sound horrible, but I really have no compassion for these people. They know the consequences of getting caught, but they still do it, so it's their own fault.

the death penality as harsh as it is has to be better in some peoples view as life in a bali jail cell cannot really be called life. i think the death penality is execisive and heavy handed.
the unfortuante ones who are killed are made an example of... of what the consquences are.
i went to singapore on the papers to sign to enter all had major notifications of the death penalty for drugs. the warnings are there.
i realise im in the middle here i am in the grey area. i think the drug traffickers should be punished, should be used deter others but i can't offer a solution to the problems.
the people know what they are getting in to to continue for the cost is just greedy and stupid.

I wasn't refuting that, but I think it's silly that we condemn their actions but are more sympathetic to those who are stupid enough to take the drugs.

i know wha tyou mean but the people on drugs can be helped the dealers can't really they do it cus there is money to be made again like i said greedy

Drug taking like a lot of things is quite often down to choice,there are acceptions I know. Streets could be crawling with drug dealers but if people made the choice to stay away there wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Sorry for the long post - but I feel pationate about this subject.

This, like all penalties, boils down to the protection of innocence and the rights of others. What you said there is a reminder of the selfish comments I heard on the news here in the UK last week when it was announced smoking would be banned in bars and clubs. People saying things like "I want to smoke therefore it's my right". Yes... they have that right.. but others have the right not to have to suffer because of this. You're saying if an area was bad due to drugs then people could just stay away... well... it shouldn't be allowed to get that bad... and people should have the right to live in a nice area and be free from abuse, violance and crime.

I'll say the same thing as I said in my previous post in this thread. People convicted of crimes like this know exactly what the punishment is. If they don't want to be convicted of a crime then they shouldn't commit it in the first place. They knew the risks... so they pay the price. Obviously in cases where he's doing it to help his family or a woman has 2 small children it's sad... but by risking their life in the name of money they themselves are being selfish to everybody that knows them and to the people that their actions may affect.

I'm not speaking here as somebody pro or against the death penalty - i'm not in a position to be able to make that judgement... especially for countries that I've never been to and that are thousands of miles away. But I've made my opinion clear - every country sets laws which people know and which they feel are appropriate for each situation in their own country. If the person committing the crime had also raped and murdered several children you'd be calling for the death penalty. I know the two crimes are different - but each country sets what they think is appropriate for each individual crime.

Also speaking from my point of view... I would rather be put to death for a crime that either had that option or life in prison without parole. Not only would that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to everybody else - but I wouldn't have much of a life anymore. My life would be over from the time I was convicted. Yes that would affect the people that know me... but if I had committed a crime which would affect others in such a way - i should pay the price.

Think about it this way... that Betts girl that was all over the papers for taking an extacy tablet at her party in the UK a few years back. It was her choice to take it yes...but another tragic loss of teenage life due to the effects of others. If there were no drugs... no life would be taken as a result of them. Drug dealers and drug smugglers concent to the senseless death of hundreds of people - and are party to those deaths... so should pay the price.