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cruithne
07-28-2004, 04:53 PM
HEADLINE: Prosperity: It's heaven on Earth;
The devil makes us honest, St. Louis Fed suggests.

BYLINE: By Alister Bull; Reuters

DATELINE: WASHINGTON

BODY:
Economists searching for reasons that some nations are richer than others have found that those with a wide belief in hell are less corrupt and more prosperous, according to a report by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.

Researchers at the regional Federal Reserve bank acknowledged the importance of productivity and investment in the economic process but looked at some recent unconventional efforts to explain differences in national prosperity.

The St. Louis Fed drew on work by outside economists who studied 35 countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India and Turkey, and found that religion shed some useful light.

"In countries where large percentages of the population believe in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living," the St. Louis Fed said in its July quarterly review.

For instance, 71 percent of the U.S. population believes in hell, and the country boasts the world's highest per-capita income, according to the 2003 United Nations Human Development Report and 1990-1993 World Values Survey.

Ireland, not far behind the United States in terms of income, likewise has a healthy fear of a netherworld, with 53 percent of the population acknowledging hell's existence.

"I'm not surprised," the Rev. Eileen Lindner, deputy general secretary of the U.S. National Council of Churches, said when told of the results.

"The expectation that there is a cultural belief in hell or perpetual and eternal punishment for wrongdoing will act as a disincentive to wrongdoing," she said.

The St. Louis Fed's researchers took a two-step approach to linking religion and the economy.

"A belief in hell tends to mean less corruption, and less corruption tends to mean a higher per-capita income," they wrote. It correlated the belief-in-hell findings of the World Value Survey with a measure of corruption produced by Transparency International, a nonprofit group that works to fight corruption.

It then looked at the relationship between corruption and per-capita gross domestic product and found "a strong tendency for countries with relatively low levels of corruption to have relatively high levels of per-capita GDP."

The researchers also noted the long tradition among classical economists to equate a society's honesty, and the strength of the rule of law, with economic vitality.

"Adam Smith wrote that one of religion's most important contributions to the economic-development process is its value as a moral enforcement mechanism," they said.

None of which cut any ice with nonbelievers.

Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study the latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up government support.

"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they do, so they turn to other things," she said.

The St. Louis Fed's essay "Fear of Hell Might Fire Up the Economy" can be found at http://www.stlouisfed.org/publicati.../c/default.html

I don't think belief in Hell has much to do with prosperity. Many people "prosper" because of criminal or unethical activity--Saddam Hussein certainly had a tad more prosperity than he deserved, before the war. And by the reasoning of the authors, Latin American countries should have as much prosperity as the US.

Shivercide
07-28-2004, 07:05 PM
The belief that there may be repercussions after death does make people think about their actions. This may lead to prosperity in some ways, but I'm not entirely sure.

I always thought that was part of the idea of religion and the belief in hell/heaven in the first place. It reminds me of the idea of santa clause for kids (if you're good you get presents, but if you're bad, you get coal).

Whether or not they truly exist, people were comforted by the thought of having somewhere better to go when they die, and then others emphasized the potential punishment in the after life for behaving badly.

Just another way of keeping people in line.

SangReal
07-29-2004, 09:21 AM
I tend to disagree. I believe in hell, but I don't think that doing bad things will make me go to hell, so...how would my belief in hell make me behave myself?

Nope. Not buying it.

<3 Mary

cruithne
07-29-2004, 09:30 AM
I tend to disagree. I believe in hell, but I don't think that doing bad things will make me go to hell, so...how would my belief in hell make me behave myself?

Nope. Not buying it.

<3 Mary


What would make you go to Hell, if not "doing bad things"? Just curious.

SangReal
07-29-2004, 12:17 PM
Not to impose my religious beliefs on you guys (but hey, the thread does tangentially relate to religion), but to me, my belief in Christ washes away all my wrongdoing. Being a "good person" and doing "good things" doesn't get people to Heaven; oppositely, being a "bad person" and doing "bad things" does not force people into Hell. While I wouldn't condone purposely doing wrong, if I do something bad that does not automatically condemn me; as long as I earnestly and honestly ask for forgiveness and trust that Christ's death on the Cross was the wages for my sin, I won't go to Hell. I've already been paid for. That doesn't mean I can go around and do whatever I want - that's not pleasing to God - but certainly, the occasional wrong I commit is not going to send me to Hell.

That said, many people who believe in hell live their lives very waywardly. They do whatever they want, assuming they can turn their lives around before they die. "Live a little before you die," or however the saying goes. So I don't think belief in Hell (especially the American belief in Hell, which is growing ever more abstract) really causes people to behave better. Americans "live for today" anyway.

<3 Mary

DhammaSeeker
07-29-2004, 12:39 PM
I'm curious. What is "the American belief in Hell, which is growing ever more abstract"?

gilwellian
07-29-2004, 12:44 PM
I sold my soul to Hell and no benefits up to date. I'm still poor and working hard to earn few bucks per month. Heaven sucks, Hell sucks, all of you suck and my only chance is jerking off for free. :mad:

Head
07-29-2004, 01:01 PM
Not part of the debate, but Gil's last post was SOOOOOO sigworthy...

:D

SangReal
07-29-2004, 01:27 PM
I'm curious. What is "the American belief in Hell, which is growing ever more abstract"?
Our American forebears really thought about Hell. It was a serious consequence, and it was a real threat. Preachers preached ever Sunday about "Hellfire and brimstone." These days, Hell is an abstraction. We use it to describe unpleasant situations and tell people to go there without actually considering how bad "going there" would be. We take everything a lot less seriously these days, religion and hell not excluded. So I guess that's what I meant, if it makes any sense.

<3 Mary

PS Gil I SOOOO love you for that comment..."jerking off for free" *collapses*

DhammaSeeker
07-29-2004, 04:00 PM
Our American forebears really thought about Hell. It was a serious consequence, and it was a real threat. Preachers preached ever Sunday about "Hellfire and brimstone." ... "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758) (http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/sermons/sinners.html)

A fine example of early-American religious rhetoric.

Christian_Djinn
08-01-2004, 11:08 PM
Murdering people makes one hungry for ice cream? Or is it ice cream that is feeding our need for primitive violence? Same idea.

It's a cause and effect thing, Ice cream sales are directly perportionate to murder rates, but the two are not related, there is another factor: the heat (which causes the two to increase or decrease)

I do not think the people who are doing good things and leading their lives in a peaceful mannor are doing so from fear of a Hell. Gates and the Waltons are good examples that a belief in a Hell does not lead a nation to be prosperous.

SangReal
08-02-2004, 11:33 AM
Murdering people makes one hungry for ice cream? Or is it ice cream that is feeding our need for primitive violence? Same idea.

It's a cause and effect thing, Ice cream sales are directly perportionate to murder rates, but the two are not related, there is another factor: the heat (which causes the two to increase or decrease)

Oh. My. Gawd. Somebody was actually listening to my little lecture on causalation. *faints*

<3 Mary

Hiro
08-10-2004, 01:09 AM
Oh. My. Gawd. Somebody was actually listening to my little lecture on causalation.
Well not exactly. Christian_djinn is still claiming that murder rates and ice cream consumption are "caused" by the heat. Maybe Ben & Jerry have been particularly good marketers this summer. Maybe murderers have found more efficient means of killing beginning in July. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Correlation, not necessarily causation.

SangReal
08-10-2004, 09:43 AM
Well not exactly. Christian_djinn is still claiming that murder rates and ice cream consumption are "caused" by the heat. Maybe Ben & Jerry have been particularly good marketers this summer. Maybe murderers have found more efficient means of killing beginning in July. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Correlation, not necessarily causation.
Actually, I said CAUSALATION, not CAUSATION. Causalation is the tendency of humans to take what is really a correlation and misinterpret it as causation.

<3 Mary

Christian_Djinn
08-11-2004, 01:18 AM
Well not exactly. Christian_djinn is still claiming that murder rates and ice cream consumption are "caused" by the heat. Maybe Ben & Jerry have been particularly good marketers this summer. Maybe murderers have found more efficient means of killing beginning in July. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Correlation, not necessarily causation.

What do you mean still??

So Hell does make people more apt to be prosperous? More efficient means of killing beginning in July... I guess it's the annual I want to Kill conventions they hold in June?

Except then you'd only be dealing with the preemptive murders and not the common spur of the moment slash and thrash (and commonly a rape.) Maybe you could blame those on the less clothing people wear in the summer, thus provoking we horney males (and the select few females who murder in this fashion) to kill.

Finally, Ben and Jerry may have been particularly good marketers this summer, but I doubt they took a single year as a basis for the study, that's ludicrous. They did the study by looking at a period of years, not a single example. Trend.

You are right on one thing, caused was a poor chioce of wording.


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