Several weeks ago, I had a guest at the Inn and he had brought his own beer and wine for him and his wife. I don't have a problem with that. Hey it's cheaper and I am not in the bar business.

After noticing his marine buzz cut, I asked him if he was in the service. He said yes and that he just got back from Iraq, where he was stationed in Dubai for over a year. Okay, I'm thinking he's married, served in Iraq for one year, and then it dawned on me. He didn't look old enough to be drinking. So I asked him how old he was. He said that he was 20 and that he was turning 21 tomorrow. He showed me his military ID and he was turning 21 tomorrow. She was already 21. Here they are drinking at my busniess and he is underage. After he had finished his beer, he asked if I had any that I could sell him. Do you know the fine for selling to minors? $10,000 and jail time. Here is this guy who was putting his life on the line and defending my right to be free and I had to tell him that I could not serve him a beer. I felt horrible not to mentioned pissed off.

Where are his rights and freedoms that he is fighting for? The right to have to wait another day until he turns 21. WTF. The next day on his 21st birthday while they were out, I placed six coronas in an ice chest, made a cheesecake and placed a card to the top of it thanking him for his service. At breakfast, one of the guests was a retired WW2 infrantryman and I told him of the Marine and they talked all through breakfast. After breakfast, they sat in the parlor and talked for hours. When they came to check out, I comped their stay and once again thanked them for his service and how sorry I was for not being able to sell him a beer the day before his 21st birthday.

It just isn't fair. I obeyed the law but had a hard time understanding the law.

tMR

You are right completely. So he isnt mature enough to drink a beer, but he is mature enough to learn to fire a gun and die for his country?

Well, the drinking age over here is 18, so I think it's fair. You don't want to be drunk while you still have to go to school and stuff, it'll just (well, it might) mess up your school life. I do think 21 is a little unfair. Mbmanus is right, if he is old enough to take on such big resposibilities, surely he is old enough to take that one.

This old chestnut...

You're old enough to vote, join the army, get married and have kids before you're old enough to have a beer... amazing.

However - let's not forget that people of a certain age (16-25 year old men... I'm not singling you out... honest. Got that 16-25 year old men? Good) are prone as a group to be slightly more impulsive with their choices than other groups in society. This is why road traffic adccident statistics are heavily concentrated in a certain age bracket. Coincidentally, it's the 16-25 year old men group.

Alcohol is a very dangerous substance. It's surprisingly easy to poison yourself with alcohol, especially if you're not used to it. Now, young lads tend to rush at things like a bull at a gate. If you made it legal for 16 year old boys to buy as muchalcohol as they liked, the hospitals would be full of them - not just the ones who thought they could down a forty ouncer of Smirnoff black label in one go, but the others who got seriously wasted for the first time ever and went fighting, falling off bridges, stumbling out in front of traffic, etc.

It's my personal opinion that 21 is a little to long to wait - over here you can drink at 18. By that age most people are expected to be responsible members of society, capable of voting etc. If they're trusted to have a voice in who should govern, surely they can get a pint?

Having said that, nobody ever waits until they are of a legal age to start drinking... so maybe setting the bar at 21 is taking account of that truism.

I know that most of you who know me will be falling off your chairs laughing at my audacity to post this, given that I'm usually as drunk as a Lord when I post here... but it's a serious topic. There's nothing big or clever about getting off yer face... Except when I do it. :)

I've always felt that if you're old enough to die for your country and vote for the next leader of the free world then you're old enough to drink. That being said, I really don't think that 18 should be the drinking age -- personal experience has taught me that kids that age just aren't ready to handle it. I think the that the age for the draft (God forbid!) and for voting should be increased to 21. Keep it level. 90% of the college freshman I've talked to this year still thought Gore was running...I don't know about y'all, but that scares the shite out of me! :eek:

I feel it is unfair. Even though I haven’t drank yet. Well may be not ever but not on a consistent basis. There was that time when I was younger and I was 16 of course. Just got a job as a dishwasher at a bar. Well the combination wasn’t very good. But any way. They had glasses of booze on the bar and pop for the employees. Guess which I took by accident. The booze. The thing was I knew it was booze after the first but realizing I was getting away with it. Well I drank so much that night that I had a hang over so bad that I swore I was blind in the morning. I actually thought in the afternoon it was still night. Any way I think it should be 18 not 21 in my opinion. But it doesn’t effect me seeing that I am 23.

i think the dringking age 21 is stupid. here you can drink beer and wine when you're 16. and harder stuff when you're 18. the truth is people drink if they want to. laws don't change that much.

I'm going to have to agree that if you are old enough to do any number of other responsiblity-oriented things, you should be old enough to drink. I happen to live in International Falls, which is a bridge trip away from Fort Frances, Ontario, where the drinking age is 19 instead of 21. My friends and I go over there quite a bit, because it's something to do rather than sit around. I consider myself in a unique position to compare the differences between ages, and I think that drinkers in Canada are much more responsible. As I understand, Canada has much more strict public drunkeness laws and DUI/DWI laws. This helps to instill responsibility, because the penalties are much harder than they would be here.

Granted, when we come back to the US, we can still be arrested for illegal consumption, etc. Even if you have reciepts from the bars, you are still drunk underage when you get back here. The way I see it, lowering the drinking age to 18 wouldn't hurt anything. After all, you are/could be already making decisions that will be affecting the rest of your life. Drinking is another one of those choices. I know people who won't drink a drop, and that's fine, and I have some friends that are borderline alcoholic. Either way, it's their choice and there shouldn't be a government mandate protecting them from themselves.

I appeal to one of those counterintuitive policies that the more scarce you make something, the more desirable you make it, and so by forbidding alcohol consumption the government has actually increased binge drinking as a problem.

It also increases the risk of alcoholism, for the same reasons--people drinking heavily earlier because it is "cool." Make it legal, you remove the mystery from it.

I would say sell beer (and equivalents, anything 5% or under) to people as young as 16 and let people's parents buy alcohol for them in restaurants either at that age or maybe as young as 14. Rather than teaching all or nothing in school with some discussion on drunk driving, emphasize drinking responsibly. This also starts the process while they are still under their parents' roof. Start selling liquor to them at age 18--by that time you can vote, pose nude for photographs, and join the marine corps, so it is patently silly to not let you have a few drinks out with friends or to order a bottle of wine with dinner.

I appeal to one of those counterintuitive policies that the more scarce you make something, the more desirable you make it, and so by forbidding alcohol consumption the government has actually increased binge drinking as a problem.

It also increases the risk of alcoholism, for the same reasons--people drinking heavily earlier because it is "cool." Make it legal, you remove the mystery from it.

I would say sell beer (and equivalents, anything 5% or under) to people as young as 16 and let people's parents buy alcohol for them in restaurants either at that age or maybe as young as 14. Rather than teaching all or nothing in school with some discussion on drunk driving, emphasize drinking responsibly. This also starts the process while they are still under their parents' roof. Start selling liquor to them at age 18--by that time you can vote, pose nude for photographs, and join the marine corps, so it is patently silly to not let you have a few drinks out with friends or to order a bottle of wine with dinner.

WOW the first smart thing I have ever ehard you post.. :D ;)

The irony for most people to be able to pose nude, they would have to have had several drinks. At least for me.

Where are his rights and freedoms that he is fighting for?

tMR


What about the people under 21 who aren't in the service?

What about them?

That is like asking "but what about the people who don't vote" when asking when someone should be tried as an adult.

Say what?

I don't know why they made it 21... why not 19? Most seniors are out of school by the time they are 19... Didn't the legal drinking age used to 18? I think it still may be in certain states... not too sure about that. I can see why they raise it, but all the way to 21? hmmm... :rolleyes:

I didn't know if the discussion was turning to the way of only people who fight for their rights, get those rights. Almost like saying a soldier who's under 21 should be allowed or not AS punished as a non-soldier under 21 for drinking alcohol?

I'm not to clear on this, and I doubt my question is either. :confused:

What about the people under 21 who aren't in the service?

His freedoms are your freedoms. Service or not. It is the age not the occupation. When one fights for freedom he isn't just fighting for his.

Do you always approach things from a negative angle? The statement that I made had nothing to do with him fighting for just his rights.

tMR

The way I see it, it really doesn't matter what the "legal" age is. Yes, when you turn 18 you are legally responsilble for yourself. But does that mean you are "responsible"? There are kids under 21 who WILL get drunk. That is a fact. The LAW says that should an adult (i.e. 21 and up) permit a juvenile (technically anyone under 21) to drink, they can go to jail (both adult and juvenile). Should we change that law, though? I doubt it. In the general population, a 21 year old (and at the time the law was passed--don't ask because I don't know) has maybe graduated college, has a good job and is contributing to society. Not a lot of 18 , 19, or 20 year olds are, they are generally still in school. I don't think that this law should be changed. I like it just the way it is. BTW, I did not have a single drink until I was 25. And I am 25. I was smart enough to wait until I was older and could control it, and I believe that is the reason the law is set at 21. And that woman should be in jail for allowing her UNDERAGE husband to drink. He could have waited until tomorrow! (IMO)


deb

If it makes you feel any better, this young man can (with his military ID) purchase alcohol on a military base (at least my friend can, and he's only 18). I'm a prohibitionist myself (if we could make it work), so I have no opinion about whether the drinking age is fair.

<3 Mary

The way I see it, it really doesn't matter what the "legal" age is. Yes, when you turn 18 you are legally responsilble for yourself. But does that mean you are "responsible"? There are kids under 21 who WILL get drunk. That is a fact. The LAW says that should an adult (i.e. 21 and up) permit a juvenile (technically anyone under 21) to drink, they can go to jail (both adult and juvenile). Should we change that law, though? I doubt it. In the general population, a 21 year old (and at the time the law was passed--don't ask because I don't know) has maybe graduated college, has a good job and is contributing to society. Not a lot of 18 , 19, or 20 year olds are, they are generally still in school. I don't think that this law should be changed. I like it just the way it is. BTW, I did not have a single drink until I was 25. And I am 25. I was smart enough to wait until I was older and could control it, and I believe that is the reason the law is set at 21. And that woman should be in jail for allowing her UNDERAGE husband to drink. He could have waited until tomorrow! (IMO)


deb

That is a nonsensical view if I ever heard one. Essentially you seem to be saying that things should remain the way they are because they are that way, not for any biological or sociological reason.

Here is a question for you:

How is binge drinking viewed in France and Australia, and how common is alcoholism?

How is binge drinking viewed in France and Australia, and how common is alcoholism?
I don't live there, do not plan on living there, and really it doesn't apply to me. So, in my world, it doesn't matter.

deb

i think the dringking age 21 is stupid. here you can drink beer and wine when you're 16. and harder stuff when you're 18. the truth is people drink if they want to. laws don't change that much.


True. No one listens. I hear people in school talk about their drinking stories and stuff all the time. I have never drunken any alcoholic beverages or beer or whatever before. So eh. There are a lot of laws people don't abide by. Drugs for example. :rolleyes:
Proud to be drug free....Oh. I don't smoke either. People I know think I'm weird because of that. :o

Let me first say that I've never posted in this forum. EVER. I just don't like debating. I'm just going to say what I feel knowing fully well that some of you might slam me for my opinion.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but in America, 21 is the legal drinking age because at 21 you are considered to be a responsible adult. How can you drink responsibly?? Alcohol is a drug. I hate when adults say that kids shouldn't be drinking at such a young age because they're not mature enough to be drinking. How does age determine your maturity?? I know kids my age who are much more mature than most adults. It is disturbing to me when I hear my cousin's parents telling her not to drink because it's bad for her yet I see her parents drunk all the time. I think I'm getting slightly off topic...

I've always though that either there shouldn't be a drinking age at all or drinking in general should be banned. Really, "age ain't nothing but a number".

I don't live there, do not plan on living there, and really it doesn't apply to me. So, in my world, it doesn't matter.

deb
Very typical, and unfortunate, US American attitude.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion on the topic of drinking age, you don't think being informed about its status in other core, neoliberal countries is important?

In general, I don't think it matters. Each person has their own opinion. And the US constitution says I am entitled to mine. And it has been posted.

deb

In general, I don't think it matters. Each person has their own opinion. And the US constitution says I am entitled to mine. And it has been posted.

deb
Debating does not = the stating of opinions.

Debating does not = the stating of opinions.
that could be why I never made the debate team... (if you read my post, most was not opinion, and the thread opener asked essentially what we thought not what we knew...)

deb

Let me first say that I've never posted in this forum. EVER. I just don't like debating. I'm just going to say what I feel knowing fully well that some of you might slam me for my opinion.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but in America, 21 is the legal drinking age because at 21 you are considered to be a responsible adult. How can you drink responsibly?? Alcohol is a drug. I hate when adults say that kids shouldn't be drinking at such a young age because they're not mature enough to be drinking. How does age determine your maturity?? I know kids my age who are much more mature than most adults. It is disturbing to me when I hear my cousin's parents telling her not to drink because it's bad for her yet I see her parents drunk all the time. I think I'm getting slightly off topic...

I've always though that either there shouldn't be a drinking age at all or drinking in general should be banned. Really, "age ain't nothing but a number".
Couldn't have said it better myself :cool:

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Before sometime in the '80s the drinking age varied from state to state, from 18 to 21. Because of this, people between the ages of 18 to 20 who lived in a 21-to-drink state near a 18-to-drink state would travel into the 18-to-drink state to get hammered, resulting in drunk driving accidents on the way home. Reagan wanted to put an end to this, but couldn't directly change the states' drinking laws. So he passed a bill that withheld federal highway funds from states that didn't change the age to 21, effectively blackmailing them.

In spite of this, I agree with tMR. I think families should allow their kids to drink a little wine or beer now and then. Take the mystery and stigma out of it.

In general, I don't think it matters. Each person has their own opinion. And the US constitution says I am entitled to mine. And it has been posted.

deb
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts" -- Sen. Moynihan

You are entitled to whatever opinion you believe, but simply holding that opinion does not make it equivalent to a well thought out belief that is justified with evidence and reasoning.

To paraphrase a very famous quote: When I find that the facts that I have based my views on are incorrect, I change my mind. What do you do?

hehehehe 'tis funny cos down here in australia the legal age is 18, and i know its even less in other countries, such as germany. anywayz
whether ur 'too young' to drink depends more on ur size, weight, and motabolism than your actual age. usually this depends on your age really, and that is the reason for the age limit. The government has to control it somehow, and rather than measuring up everyone individually, they just put an age which the average person is able to be mature enough to control their drinkin, and also physically able to keep it down :D

but as i said, its more about your physical and mental maturity than the number that classifyes how long youve been alive for :P meh, i'm not legally allowed to drink for another 5 months or soemthing, cant wait....

How can you drink responsibly?? Alcohol is a drug. I hate when adults say that kids shouldn't be drinking at such a young age because they're not mature enough to be drinking. How does age determine your maturity?? I know kids my age who are much more mature than most adults. It is disturbing to me when I hear my cousin's parents telling her not to drink because it's bad for her yet I see her parents drunk all the time. I think I'm getting slightly off topic...

I've always though that either there shouldn't be a drinking age at all or drinking in general should be banned. Really, "age ain't nothing but a number".

Age = life experiences.

Life experiences are the number one contributors to maturity. Without them, a person cannot truly be mature.

Teenagers always think they know what is best for them, and think their parents are "out of touch" or that their parents don't know what they are talking about. But it's not true. Their parents have been exactly where they are, and know everything that their teenager knows about life, plus an extra 15-19 years.

That being said, moderation is the word of the day here. If you know your limits and you are able to stay within them, then you should be legally able to drink.

As Plato said, "Moderation, which consists in an indifference about little things, and in a prudent and well-proportioned zeal about things of importance, can proceed from nothing but true knowledge, which has its foundation in self-acquaintance."

I dont think its fair.

I think it should be raised. v.v Well, I dislike moderate-to-large amounts of alcohol around me, period. So thats just why I think the drinking age should be RAISED- therefore, its still unfair. And I wouldnt consider it 'unfair', either. Im not sure what i'd call it- but not 'unfair'. Anyway, yeah, so basically:

It isnt fair. THe age should be raised. IMO.

I agree with what ToB said. Although age does not always determine one's maturity, it's the best we can do to seperate the people that know their limits and drink moderately, and the dumbass teenage alcoholics. No offence to any teens, I am one myself, but admit it, you've all made your share of mistakes during this age. I know I have.

That is a nonsensical view if I ever heard one. Essentially you seem to be saying that things should remain the way they are because they are that way, not for any biological or sociological reason.

Here is a question for you:

How is binge drinking viewed in France and Australia, and how common is alcoholism?

I couldn't find too many recent up to date statistics on alcoholism here in Australia, but here's what I could find;

* The annual cost of alcohol misuse to the community is around $4.5 billion Australian per annum.

* "Five percent of people in Australia are dependent on alcohol. However, 11% of women and 17% of men drink alcohol to the extent that causes them physical and/or psychological harm.”" (10 Alcohol. How Much is too Much?: www.nrdgp.org.au)

* 80 percent of under 18-year-olds drink, 50 percent binge drink. Around 10 percent of 12-year-olds drink regularly. Four percent will become alcohol dependent by their late teens.

From my personal viewpoint and experiences with alcohol, it is a tradition (I must confess that I find most beers, especially Australian ones to taste like utter piss) to have a few beers with your friends down at the pub or at their place. Being able unwind with alcohol is pretty much considered to be part of the Australian psyche. Drinking to be more social is the main reason usually given by people (certainly amongst my age group) to drink, but the old reason of trying to pick up people is also a major reason.

Binge drinking is only looked down (again, this is amongst discussion with my friends and other people my age) in the sense of "Man, he/she was wasted last night!", which is seen as mainly amusing both that night and the day after.

People seem to be posting alot of opinions in this topic without any reson given behind them.

Nemo- I have no idea what you just said. You don't like drinking around you, so the age should be raised for everyone? Unless it's your parents drinking in your home, if you are around drinking and you don't like it LEAVE the situation. Don't expect the whole world to change just because you don't like bieng around it!

The same goes for the prohibitionist, Sangreal.

As for the current age of 21 in the US, I do think it is incongruous with the other age limits for smoking, voting, joining the military and sexual consent. I agree with what Llywellen said that by witholding the right to drink until a later age we actually encourage, or at least foster the development of irresponsible drinking habits.

As for tMR's original post; You seem to have been thinking that it was bad of you not to serve him BECAUSE he served in Iraq. A day is still a day, and as you said, you could have been fined or imprisoned and lost your establishment. If he could stay in Iraq with people shooting at him for a year, he could certainly wait one more day to drink a beer legally, regardless of whether you think it's right or not.

As for the current age of 21 in the US, I do think it is incongruous with the other age limits for smoking, voting, joining the military and sexual consent. I agree with what Llywellen said that by witholding the right to drink until a later age we actually encourage, or at least foster the development of irresponsible drinking habits.
Another side of this debate is, why not have no drinking age limit? There is none in China, and you rarely ever see teenagers getting drunk. Could the age limit be exact thing that makes drinking so exciting, making it the forbidden fruit? I can understand how people would be scared to actually try this, but it's quite possible that the more restricted we make alcohol, the more teens would try to get it. This goes for all drugs.

Another side of this debate is, why not have no drinking age limit? There is none in China, and you rarely ever see teenagers getting drunk. .

There is a much greater social stigma against getting drunk in China than there is in the US.

How about we get rid of all age limits, such as those for driving, smoking and sexual consent? You have to ask, why is there an age limit in the first place? What purpose does it serve?

There is none in China, and you rarely ever see teenagers getting drunk.

China is quite intense about many of their laws and having obedient citizens. There are other variables there that influence teenage drunkenness that aren't present in most other countries, thereby making a direct drinking age comparison with other countries have misleading results.

Edit: Paradise kinda beat me to it.

the way i see it, since you are legally an adult by the time you're 18, and alcohol is an adult beverage, then then it should be legal for you to have a beer or whatever it is that you want by then.

China is quite intense about many of their laws and having obedient citizens. There are other variables there that influence teenage drunkenness that aren't present in most other countries, thereby making a direct drinking age comparison with other countries have misleading results.

Edit: Paradise kinda beat me to it.


exactly. hey beating someone for being publicly intoxicated will get rid of a drinking problem real quick.

There is a much greater social stigma against getting drunk in China than there is in the US.
But that doesn't eliminate the fact that even though North Americans try infinitely harder to control drinking, there's still more drunk teenagers here than in other countries. Laws and enforcement are one way to go, but if you take a look at the situation around you, can you honestly say that it's working? Sure, blame it on social or cultural differences, but in the end, we're still faced with the same problem; and people determined to solve it by using a solution that does not work. And before you say something like "why not have no laws?" like you just said below, I want to say law and enforcement isn't the only solution to social problems.

How about we get rid of all age limits, such as those for driving, smoking and sexual consent? You have to ask, why is there an age limit in the first place? What purpose does it serve?
You know what, why don't we? Perhaps that'll teach those crazy teenagers. :rolleyes:

exactly. hey beating someone for being publicly intoxicated will get rid of a drinking problem real quick.
Maybe I'm drinking in my house, with 5 other teenage buddies of mine. Why exactly does drinking have to be public? In most cases, including in North American, it's not public.


As long as you keep defending the North American way of dealing with drinking, I'll keep telling you to take a good look at reality, and the fact that we have still have so many alcoholics - teens and adults - that the statistics are scary to look at. You tell me that our governments aren't doing something wrong about this issue.


And here's something else to ponder: Why exactly is it the government's, or your, business if I decide to go get drunk and have sex with my sofa when I'm 16? My life is my responsibility, not the government's.

well here people are free drinking after 18 but honestly no one follows the rule
14 year old child can go and buy a beer or wine and not one bottle (though he couldn't buy vodka and other strong drinks) he can buy cigarettes may be not everywhere, but nevertheless he can. he's got only to say it's for my father and that's it, no problem.
as for me i don't think that's good i mean 14 years old, he's too young to start drinking esp when no one controls him but his friends also the same age.
but 21 is not serious too - 16-17 i think is alright

Maybe I'm drinking in my house, with 5 other teenage buddies of mine. Why exactly does drinking have to be public? In most cases, including in North American, it's not public.

As long as you keep defending the North American way of dealing with drinking, I'll keep telling you to take a good look at reality

I think he was saying that CHINA has a way of breaking your legs if you act like an ass or look at the government crosseyed. The point wasn't about where the drinking was taking place. Reality is that China is a bad example.

Why exactly is it the government's, or your, business if I decide to go get drunk and have sex with my sofa when I'm 16? My life is my responsibility, not the government's.

Think VERY carefully. Are you sure you're willing to keep that same government/responsibility stance if we change the issue here?

You know what, why don't we? Perhaps that'll teach those crazy teenagers. :rolleyes:

You drew a correlation between teenagers not getting drunk in China and their not having a drinking limit over there, but due to the other variables affecting China that aren't present in most other places, this makes that reasoning inaccurate. I think he was just trying to make you see that removing age limits isn't necessarily the way to solve a problem.

You shouldn't be so willing to discard thoughts on this subject from people who have passed the drinking limit themselves. You see this whole thing from the firsthand perspective of a teenager, and not even an older one at that. There are many things that teeneagers think they are mature enough for, but in actuality they most certainly are not. I PROMISE you'll feel differently about some things in a few short years. Drinking may not be one of them, but there are things that you don't know you weren't ready for until later, no matter what anyone tells you.

I have always thought the drinking age should be lowered. In high school and even now, I never understood who would want to drink. But I think that by lowering the age limit, less kids would be drinking. It seems to me that most drinking occurs underage because it's forbidden to them by law. So lets lower the age limit, and perhaps fewer kids would feel the pressure to drink underage or even at all. I would say the proper age should be 18. The age when most things occur. You can buy cigarettes, you register to vote, you can serve your country, you legally become an adult.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Before sometime in the '80s the drinking age varied from state to state, from 18 to 21. Because of this, people between the ages of 18 to 20 who lived in a 21-to-drink state near a 18-to-drink state would travel into the 18-to-drink state to get hammered, resulting in drunk driving accidents on the way home. Reagan wanted to put an end to this, but couldn't directly change the states' drinking laws. So he passed a bill that withheld federal highway funds from states that didn't change the age to 21, effectively blackmailing them.


Thats right on, actually.
If i'm not mistaken, those 'federal highway funds' were $$$ to build our current interstate road system. So basically, everyone got screwed except the people who were prohibition friendly.

Of the experiences that I've had of US teenagers going to Europe, the general vibe was to drink drink drink because once you get home, it will be years before you'll be able to casually drink in public again. The European teenagers, however, didn't have that same vibe. They drank wine at meals and sometimes a beer in the afternoon, but that was about it. Of course, if something special was going on, they would go to bars and get hammered; that didn't happen a whole lot from what I could tell.

I've also run into people who can't get out often because they have restrictive parents and hence, when they do get out, they feel an impetus to get as drunk as possible because being drunk =good or =fun. So I certainly think that there's some validity to the notion that witholding alcohol for as long as possible makes it even more desirable.

And here's something else to ponder: Why exactly is it the government's, or your, business if I decide to go get drunk and have sex with my sofa when I'm 16? My life is my responsibility, not the government's.


Because believe it or not, you arent mature enough at 16 to make those decisions.

Hell there are 21 year olds who arent mature enough to be drinking.

I agree that it is highly hypocrital to say someone can go into the military before they can drink, but at least when you are in the military you are supervised by someone who is hopefully mature enough to stop you from doing something stupid. When you are drinking, especially at a young age, you are in a situation where there is probably not someone there to step in if things get out of hand.

And they didnt just come up with the age out of thin air. There are studies after studies done showing the number of teen drunk driving accidents.

So, in short, is it unfair that you can be drafted before you can drink? yes
is it a necessary evil? probably.

maybe they should raise the age you can be drafted and when you can go to the armed forces to 21.

I am all for lowering the drinking age to 18. I think if kids learn to drink in a responsible manner in public, the need to binge in private will cease to exist. Having the drinking age at 21 just promotes underage over-consumption behind closed doors. If you have to learn to drink in public, you will be exposed to the constructive criticism of your friends and the general public. Make something forbidden, and the lemmings are gonna flock right to it. Moderation is a learned skill that very few people actually know how to practise.

Andy

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts" -- Sen. Moynihan

You are entitled to whatever opinion you believe, but simply holding that opinion does not make it equivalent to a well thought out belief that is justified with evidence and reasoning.

To paraphrase a very famous quote: When I find that the facts that I have based my views on are incorrect, I change my mind. What do you do?

Philosophy!!!!AAAAAHHHHHH. Thinking! AAAAHHHHHH

Philosophy!!!!AAAAAHHHHHH. Thinking! AAAAHHHHHH

...and the truth finally comes out. (Officially at least...)

Because believe it or not, you arent mature enough at 16 to make those decisions.
So, until I'm a certain age, I don't have the right to make decisions about my own life? Does the Bill of Rights only apply to people over a certain age?

Whether or not my desicion is right, it's my decision to make, not the government's.


(For the record, no I'm not an alcoholic. But I do believe that despite one's age, one should be able to have complete control over one's own life as long as he/she does't hurt someone else.)

So, until I'm a certain age, I don't have the right to make decisions about my own life? Does the Bill of Rights only apply to people over a certain age?

Whether or not my desicion is right, it's my decision to make, not the government's.


(For the record, no I'm not an alcoholic. But I do believe that despite one's age, one should be able to have complete control over one's own life as long as he/she does't hurt someone else.) Your Libertarian position is admirable, but until such time as we have control over national policy, you must come to grips with the very real legal constraints on individuals who have not reached the age of majority (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a023.htm).

Your Libertarian position is admirable, but until such time as we have control over national policy, you must come to grips with the very real legal constraints on individuals who have not reached the age of majority (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a023.htm).
I fully understand the reason for such age limits, but they're not always fair and in harmony with the Constitution. The voting age and the driving age limits are certanly fair, because your actions affect other people, and can potentially harm or kill someone. But I'm not exactly hurting anyone by drinking underage, or by having sex under the age of consent. And whatever consequence that comes after that is my responsibility to deal with. Why then does the government have to have a legal drinking age and an age of consent?

So after you get tanked up on beer and get in your car at age 16 and plow into my car and kill me on the highway, how is it that you will deal with those consequences?

As trite as it sounds, experience does come with age. Becoming intoxicated severely affects judgment. (I can attest to this from personal experience last Saturday night.) It is dangerous enough for teenagers to be driving at all - but give them alcohol?!

Nemo- I have no idea what you just said. You don't like drinking around you, so the age should be raised for everyone? Unless it's your parents drinking in your home, if you are around drinking and you don't like it LEAVE the situation. Don't expect the whole world to change just because you don't like bieng around it!


I only said my opinion- i didnt EXPECT anything to change- because it never will. I dont like alcohol at all, and in my opinion, it shouldnt exist. But thats my opinion- and thats all it will be, and I expect nothing to come of it. Sorry if you felt I attacked the entire world and i am trying to force people to change. Somehow.

So after you get tanked up on beer and get in your car at age 16 and plow into my car and kill me on the highway, how is it that you will deal with those consequences?

As trite as it sounds, experience does come with age. Becoming intoxicated severely affects judgment. (I can attest to this from personal experience last Saturday night.) It is dangerous enough for teenagers to be driving at all - but give them alcohol?!
Drinking and driving's against the law for people of any age, not just teens.

So, until I'm a certain age, I don't have the right to make decisions about my own life? Does the Bill of Rights only apply to people over a certain age?

Whether or not my desicion is right, it's my decision to make, not the government's.

Does it not make any sense at all that minors aren't allowed to make certain decisions? Should 5 year olds be able to have sexual consent? There is a line somewhere. That somewhere happens to be around 18 to 21. Since you're lucky, you can drive earlier than that. There has to be a line somewhere. You are not an adult. You can't just go with the government letting you do what you feel like as a young person. The government has to set their line where they think it's best, and it happens to be based on more than a whim. If you feel that the line is in an inappropriate place, then you're just going to have to wait it out, and take a glance back on the subject when you're older. We can't let everyone do everything.

Young people between the ages of 18 and 21 should ban together and seek out a Senator who will fight for the rights of those who will come after them. By the time they get it passed, they will be of drinking age. Do it for the cause man. Change the world by electing openminded politicians who feel the same way as you.

Where is the sense in knowing that an 18 y/o will be voting for a person who is set on stopping them from having a drink. That's crazy.

I'm off to get a drink and watch Survivor. See ya after the debates.

Late.
tMR

Does it not make any sense at all that minors aren't allowed to make certain decisions? Should 5 year olds be able to have sexual consent? There is a line somewhere. That somewhere happens to be around 18 to 21. Since you're lucky, you can drive earlier than that. There has to be a line somewhere. You are not an adult. You can't just go with the government letting you do what you feel like as a young person. The government has to set their line where they think it's best, and it happens to be based on more than a whim. If you feel that the line is in an inappropriate place, then you're just going to have to wait it out, and take a glance back on the subject when you're older. We can't let everyone do everything.
That's a parent's responsibility, not the government's.

That's a parent's responsibility, not the government's.

No. You are operating under the incorrect assumption that you are about 25 years old. There are laws for a reason. Laws can pertain to minors too. Parents are not the alpha and omega of every rule in a minor's life. Lots of kids don't have parents that give a fuck, so should they get a free ride in the young alcoholics hall of shame because no one told them no? Or should authorities have a right to intervene with that process? You are legally under the jurisdiction of your parents until you are 18, but that doesn't mean laws for that age group are unnecessary. If there are no laws, then things become totally relative to what the parents want. Some dipshit kid-abandoning parents aren't going to care if their 12 year old is drinking, smoking, and having sex. But the fact of the matter is that it's bullshit and there should be a law against it.

No. You are operating under the incorrect assumption that you are about 25 years old. There are laws for a reason. Laws can pertain to minors too. Parents are not the alpha and omega of every rule in a minor's life. Lots of kids don't have parents that give a fuck, so should they get a free ride in the young alcoholics hall of shame because no one told them no? Or should authorities have a right to intervene with that process? You are legally under the jurisdiction of your parents until you are 18, but that doesn't mean laws for that age group are unnecessary. If there are no laws, then things become totally relative to what the parents want. Some dipshit kid-abandoning parents aren't going to care if their 12 year old is drinking, smoking, and having sex. But the fact of the matter is that it's bullshit and there should be a law against it.
Then that's when social welfare people take the kid away and put him/her under foster care, and then put the parents in jail. You're operating under the idea that people can't be responsible to themselves, and must have laws forcing them to be.

And why exactly is it bullshit? The 12 year old goes out and gets drunk and has sex, and the consequences of that are for him/her to deal with, not you, or anyone else for that matter. Perhaps the solution lies in public education, and teaching young kids about such things in school, if their parents really dont care. But I don't think strict laws and enforcement alone will do the trick.

You're operating under the idea that people can't be responsible to themselves, and must have laws forcing them to be.




Unfortunately, many people do not accept responsibility for their own actions, even with the laws that we currently have. Your ideas are good, but self government just doesn't work on a population scale :cool:

Then that's when social welfare people take the kid away and put him/her under foster care, and then put the parents in jail. You're operating under the idea that people can't be responsible to themselves, and must have laws forcing them to be.

You are apparently quite sheltered. The world is not a happy subdivision where the social welfare people come and make sure everything is going okay on a regular basis. Are you of the position that there shouldn't be any laws for people under 18? That's sure what you're sounding like. Think about the broad implications of that. It is simply idealistic idiocy to assume that the government is going to make sure all the kids in this world are behaving "properly" in a preemptive manner. That's why authorities are authorized with laws to place such kids in juvenile detention over such activity, for at least long enough to work with the parents on it. If the parents are found to be major fuck ups at that point, then the foster system can be examined.

And why exactly is it bullshit? The 12 year old goes out and gets drunk and has sex, and the consequences of that are for him/her to deal with, not you, or anyone else for that matter.

I hate to sound rude here, but are you out of your mind? Do you have any idea how simple, immature, and incapable of processing long term consequences a 12 year old mind is? You're only 4 years away from it so I hope that's the reason you hold that opinion. For the love of humanity, 12 year olds shouldn't be punished with the consequences of sex, drugs, and alcohol by first hand experience if either a law or a parent can do something about it. We have laws about this so that parents are encouraged to teach their children the right way to behave, and also to use them directly on the children if that happens to be necessary.

What you're saying isn't bad Fweddie for a fully adult age group. But for early teens it just doesn't cut it.

You are apparently quite sheltered. The world is not a happy subdivision where the social welfare people come and make sure everything is going okay on a regular basis. Are you of the position that there shouldn't be any laws for people under 18? That's sure what you're sounding like. Think about the broad implications of that. It is simply idealistic idiocy to assume that the government is going to make sure all the kids in this world are behaving "properly" in a preemptive manner. That's why authorities are authorized with laws to place such kids in juvenile detention over such activity, for at least long enough to work with the parents on it. If the parents are found to be major fuck ups at that point, then the foster system can be examined.
Duuuuuude, I'm saying that teens should follow the same laws as adults, not that there should be no laws for teens!!


I hate to sound rude here, but are you out of your mind? Do you have any idea how simple, immature, and incapable of processing long term consequences a 12 year old mind is? You're only 4 years away from it so I hope that's the reason you hold that opinion. For the love of humanity, 12 year olds shouldn't be punished with the consequences of sex, drugs, and alcohol by first hand experience if either a law or a parent can do something about it. We have laws about this so that parents are encouraged to teach their children the right way to behave, and also to use them directly on the children if that happens to be necessary.

What you're saying isn't bad Fweddie for a fully adult age group. But for early teens it just doesn't cut it.
You know what, perhaps I did go too extreme in saying that everyone should have complete control of their own lives, despite their age. I want the government to respect personal liberty as much as possible as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, but it may be impractical and unjust to force 12 year olds to face the consequences of their actions when they cannot truly understand them. Either way, I believe such things should be taught in school, even though they are the parents' responsibilities.

But to have to be 21 to drink is just asinine! You can get married and start a family before that!

speaking as a person with an awful hangover after drinking too much last night i think the age here in the uk should be raised! simply because many people look 18 when they're much younger but not 21! i started drinking at a young age and i nearly died after drinking way too much vodka because i wasn't aware of the dangers! even tho im 18 i still drink far too much when i go out because i forget how much it affects me! i know that lots will disagree and think that the legal age is good here, but it's not safer! it is nice to be able to have a drink once you hit 18 tho!

anyway, now matter what the legal age is, everyone will find a way of getting alcohol anyway!!!!!

young alcoholics hall of shame

what is the criteria? I may be there. Maybe minor alcoholics hall of fame.

For I am young.

So, until I'm a certain age, I don't have the right to make decisions about my own life? Does the Bill of Rights only apply to people over a certain age?

Whether or not my desicion is right, it's my decision to make, not the government's.


(For the record, no I'm not an alcoholic. But I do believe that despite one's age, one should be able to have complete control over one's own life as long as he/she does't hurt someone else.)


According to judicial precedence, the Bill of Rights does not apply to minors.

And yeah you are right, you should be able to make decisions if they dont hurt others.

But look at the number of fatalities of driving drunk.

Sometimes, but rarely, i think it is error of the person serving the drinks (at a bar, mostly). My friend (16) went thru a bar section of a bowling alley to get to the actual food part. She stopped for a soda and was offered a Shirley Temple. I ended up drinking it, because i LOVE cherry -anything-. But thats just one example of error that wasnt because of the immature teen. It was great...she actually went and got another one for me. I was too lazy and unconvincing so i stayed in the arcade and played games...

And before anyone thinks im a hypocrite (since i hate alcohol so much), it wasnt like i got drunk or anything. It was like a soda. =\ Probably because it was mostly soda and probably 0 or nearly no alcohol...

But look at the number of fatalities of driving drunk.
2nd reason why i hate alcohol so much.

But to have to be 21 to drink is just asinine! You can get married and start a family before that!
Youd rather it be 18, when lots of people get their driving liscenes? Not to say that there isnt enough DUI fatalities with those 21+, but... i hate the idea of alcohol's restriction getting closer to the driving restriction age. =\ Now THAT is asinine- having the alcohol restriction age get lower and closer to the driving restriction age. And not to mention how many drunks have murdered others while DUI and gotten away with it...

And if that didnt convince you, then lemme try a counterexample:
Why dont we lower the legal gun ownership (liscencing) restriction age? Alcohol and depressants have a higher fatality rate than guns, I would think... So why not lower that restriction?

Or maybe im wrong- im trying to remember stuff ive learned from driving school...

...and the truth finally comes out. (Officially at least...)

Hey now, let's not get nasty ;)

young alcoholics hall of shame

what is the criteria? I may be there.
That explains your vote for Bush :p I keed, I keed

Bush is in my town this weekend, one block away from my house, am I going? No, why? I.Think.You.All.Know.Whyl :mad:

Bush is in my town this weekend, one block away from my house, am I going? No, why? I.Think.You.All.Know.Whyl :mad:

Because you'll be drunk? This is the drinking age debate, not the presidential election one.

my input on this is this. yes the drinking age is fair, because we don't need kids drinking beer or jack daniels when that more drunks we have to watch out for.

Youd rather it be 18, when lots of people get their driving liscenes? Not to say that there isnt enough DUI fatalities with those 21+, but... i hate the idea of alcohol's restriction getting closer to the driving restriction age. =\ Now THAT is asinine- having the alcohol restriction age get lower and closer to the driving restriction age. And not to mention how many drunks have murdered others while DUI and gotten away with it...

And if that didnt convince you, then lemme try a counterexample:
Why dont we lower the legal gun ownership (liscencing) restriction age? Alcohol and depressants have a higher fatality rate than guns, I would think... So why not lower that restriction?

Or maybe im wrong- im trying to remember stuff ive learned from driving school...
So, people that are considered responsible enough to start their own family are not responsible enough to drink??

Do you seriously believe people are THAT bad and must be forced to be responsible, or else they'll end up killing everyone and destroying the whole world? Do you seriously believe that all drivers are drunk? Because that's what your post is saying. We're all just a bunch of maniacs that'll destroy anything if given the smallest chance to do so.

I think people should have to be able to spell and use proper grammar before they are allowed to drive or drink (or type on message boards), no matter how old they are. ;) :cool:

I think people should have to be able to spell and use proper grammar before they are allowed to drive or drink (or type on message boards), no matter how old they are. ;) :cool:
Err, did I make some really stupid mistake or something? I went back and read my post over and grammatically, I couldn't find anything wrong with it :p

Do you seriously believe people are THAT bad and must be forced to be responsible, or else they'll end up killing everyone and destroying the whole world? Do you seriously believe that all drivers are drunk? Because that's what your post is saying. We're all just a bunch of maniacs that'll destroy anything if given the smallest chance to do so.

Well, i dont mean to bring up a completely diff. issue- but then why is there a problem with legalizing marijuana? Some people are for it, some people against. Heres what happens:
Marijuana legalized- people use it. Some illegally.
Marijuana still illegal- people use it. Illegally.

Alcohol rest. age is raised- underage still get it.
Alcohol age remains- underage still get it.

No one can be forced to be responsible or moral. Its just judgement of the other person. ANd in many drinking teens' cases- bad judgment and lack of responsibilities is common. Its true that raising the drinking age will be like legalizing marijuana- it wont effect. Underage kids are still gonna drink.

I guess what i mean is that more should be done about it- instead of just raising drinking age like that will enforce responsibility.

Because that's what your post is saying.

It may only appear this way because you come from a somewhat biased sorta view (so do i). Anyway, I wasnt saying that people will destroy at the chance they get. I wasnt saying everyone will get drunk and kill. Im saying that if the age is lowered, it will be easier for people to get ahold of it by themselves, thru older friends, etc. And let alone drugs, I hate the idea of seeing something very alcoholic in a kid's possession.

And then you bring up arguments like "Well, let the kid do what he wants, whos got the right to butt into his life? Its his choice". If everyone just did that- NO ONE would grow up and learn anything. Society would literally de-evolve, IMO.

As most of us know, Australia is one of the countries that has a drinking age of 18 years, which coincides with the rights to vote and drive without a licenced driver in the car. I approve of the laws in my country, and think that they work well. These are the following stipulations for drinking alcohol in the state of Victoria (all states have slight differences):
Source : (http://www.thinkb4udrink.com/chapter4f.asp)


When can I drink alcohol?
There are laws about drinking alcohol in pubs or licensed premises and drinking in public places.

In a pub or licensed premises
If you are under 18 you cannot go into a pub or licensed premises, drink or buy alcohol at a pub or licensed premises
UNLESS you are eating a meal with one of the following people:
Your parents;
Your guardian;
Your spouse (if he or she is over 18), or
Another responsible adult who your parents or guardians have trusted to look after you.

The police or an employee of a pub or licensed premises can ask you for your name, address and proof of your age if you try to buy alcohol or try to go into licensed premises. It is an offence to refuse to give your name, address and proof of age or give false information. It is an offence for an adult to send a young person who is under 18 to a pub or licensed premises for the purpose of buying alcohol.

In a public place
It is an offence to receive alcohol, drink alcohol or have alcohol in your possession in a public place if you are under 18. You can be arrested for being drunk in public at any age. It is also an offence to be drunk and disorderly or violent in a public place at any age.

In a private residence
You can drink alcohol in your own home or in someone else's home, even if you're under 18.
There are also laws in place to prevent drink driving. All drivers on L's (Learners permit, which can be obtained after the age of 16 in Victoria - driving with a licenced driver in the car) or P's (Probationary licence, after 18 in Victoria - without a licenced driver in the car) are not allowed to have any alcohol in their system. If alcohol is registered after a breath test, the licence is suspended immeadiately, and if over 18, can be fined and convicted. After the age of 25, regardless of what licence is held, a driver cannot have more than 0.05% alcohol in the bloodstream. Anything on or over constitutes loss of licence and faces fines and convictions.

I feel that there will never be an appropraite age for any substance that can potentially cause harm to others. Maturity does NOT conform to a number. There will always be the fucktards who will go out, get slaughtered, jump behind the wheel of a car and hit innocents, regardless of age.

What I would like to ask is what laws are in place in the US to deter drunk driving? I have seen it come up in many peoples arguments and was wondering if random breath testing occured and what the definition of drunk driving is?

Sometimes, but rarely, i think it is error of the person serving the drinks (at a bar, mostly). My friend (16) went thru a bar section of a bowling alley to get to the actual food part. She stopped for a soda and was offered a Shirley Temple. I ended up drinking it, because i LOVE cherry -anything-. But thats just one example of error that wasnt because of the immature teen. It was great...she actually went and got another one for me. I was too lazy and unconvincing so i stayed in the arcade and played games...

And before anyone thinks im a hypocrite (since i hate alcohol so much), it wasnt like i got drunk or anything. It was like a soda. =\ Probably because it was mostly soda and probably 0 or nearly no alcohol...

You're still being hypocritical. From what you said, you would have drank any type of alcoholic drink as long as it was cherry, it just happened to be your luck that it wasn't very strong. Also, just because you didn't get drunk from that drink doesn't mean that someone your age that drinks the same exact thing won't get drunk, or at least buzzed. That fact that you didn't get drunk means nothing.

Another problem which has already been brought up with underage drinking is a minor's problem with moderation or lack of it. note: you didn't drink just one ;)

The European teenagers, however, didn't have that same vibe. They drank wine at meals and sometimes a beer in the afternoon, but that was about it. Of course, if something special was going on, they would go to bars and get hammered; that didn't happen a whole lot from what I could tell.

That's why I like the idea of allowing kids to drink a little - with a meal, for example (something that France does, correct me if I'm wrong). That way, their tolerance isn't so digustingly low and, when they do become old enough to drink whenever/wherever the appeal isn't as great.

There are also laws in place to prevent drink driving. All drivers on L's (Learners permit, which can be obtained after the age of 16 in Victoria - driving with a licenced driver in the car) or P's (Probationary licence, after 18 in Victoria - without a licenced driver in the car) are not allowed to have any alcohol in their system. If alcohol is registered after a breath test, the licence is suspended immeadiately, and if over 18, can be fined and convicted.

This sounds like a good law, but it doesn't take in account things that have minute traces of alcohol--like cold medicine/cough syrup. Someone, in theory, could take simple over-the-counter medicine and then get in serious trouble for having a slighty above zero alcohol level.

I feel that there will never be an appropraite age for any substance that can potentially cause harm to others. Maturity does NOT conform to a number. There will always be the fucktards who will go out, get slaughtered, jump behind the wheel of a car and hit innocents, regardless of age.

That is so true. I've been able to drink legally for the last two years and most of my friends have not gotten themselves in too much shit for being drunk. Just because I can doesn't mean that I'm going to drink constantly. Then again, my mother is an alcoholic, go figure.

The one big road rule in australia : don't drink and drive.

This sounds like a good law, but it doesn't take in account things that have minute traces of alcohol--like cold medicine/cough syrup. Someone, in theory, could take simple over-the-counter medicine and then get in serious trouble for having a slighty above zero alcohol level.

Any test that an individual consistently says is wrong can be tested other ways, if they are taking the medicine for a medical reason it can be accounted for. You can go to court about it and they will most likely take more blood tests. It's not something that is taken lightly...

IMHO, the legal age of drinking in Australia is fine. Our population is lower, so any problem is not widescale and can be managed. In America, however, I'm not sure it's a good idea.

This sounds like a good law, but it doesn't take in account things that have minute traces of alcohol--like cold medicine/cough syrup. Someone, in theory, could take simple over-the-counter medicine and then get in serious trouble for having a slighty above zero alcohol level.

Actually, I've talked to local police officer about it. He said you would literally have to down a few BOTTLES of cough syrup for it to show up on a breathalizer test. The cough-syrup issue is just a myth, at least according to what I've heard.

Actually, I've talked to local police officer about it. He said you would literally have to down a few BOTTLES of cough syrup for it to show up on a breathalizer test. The cough-syrup issue is just a myth, at least according to what I've heard.
Nyquil is about 25% alcohol (50 proof). It's pretty strong stuff, for a medicine. So while you might be right about Robitussin or whatever, a shot of Nyquil is just as bad as a shot of some spirits, alcohol content- and breathalyzer-wise.

<3 Mary

Nyquil is about 25% alcohol (50 proof). It's pretty strong stuff. So while you might be right about Robitussin or whatever, a shot of Nyquil is just as bad as a shot of some spirits, alcohol content- and breathalyzer-wise.

<3 Mary


That's curious...

I really didn't think it had that much alcohol content. Again, I'm just going on what I was told by a police officer when we asked him about breathalyzers and cough syrups. I'm pretty sure he'd know being that he's performed many breathalyzer tests, but he/I could be wrong, I suppose.

And I'm insanely lightweight with alcohol in any form and any amount, and I've never had a problem in the slightest with cough syrups, Nyquil included.

That's curious...

I really didn't think it had that much alcohol content. Again, I'm just going on what I was told by a police officer when we asked him about breathalyzers and cough syrups. I'm pretty sure he'd know being that he's performed many breathalyzer tests, but he/I could be wrong, I suppose.

And I'm insanely lightweight with alcohol in any form and any amount, and I've never had a problem in the slightest with cough syrups, Nyquil included.
It might not seriously impair you, but it most likely would show up on a breathalyzer. However, like other types of alcohol, you can have a few shots before you surpass the legal limit. So I think you'd have to surpass the recommended dose a little to actually get in trouble for it.

here the legal drinking age is 18, but in supermarkets you could be minor and they sell you alcohol without even asking for you id. if you're in a restaurant with your parents and you ask for a drink they serve you one just because they see that you're with an adult... i do consider the law of not drinking till you're 21 stupid, you can drive by the time you're 16 and you can't have a beer?.
i understand that drinking is very dangerous if you're irresponsible, but if you're a responsible person that knows it's limits then why not have a drink?. of course if you know that you're going to drive then forget about the drinks and have a coke...
BTW here beers have like 14% of alcohol, having a beer here it's like having what 2 or 3 there right?...
in spain alcohol it's like part of the food (i'm serious...). you can have wine with your launch and dinner...
i remember how weird i felt when they asked me in the us my age when i asked for a drink...
ANW very interesting topic.

peace...

It might not seriously impair you, but it most likely would show up on a breathalyzer. However, like other types of alcohol, you can have a few shots before you surpass the legal limit. So I think you'd have to surpass the recommended dose a little to actually get in trouble for it.


You choose the medication and you choose to abuse it by taking more then the recommended dosage. I was looking it up last night (at work atm) and by taking the recommended dosage it would not be enough to throw you over the limit.

If anything, the manufacturers of the drug should be the one warning consumers about the possibility of having an alcoholic content and the possibility of it coming up on a breath test. As said before, anything can be further tested via blood tests.

You choose the medication... cold medicine is not the only thing that can bring up these sorts of issues and most of the time they have warnings like 'don't operate heavy equipment.'

You choose the medication and you choose to abuse it by taking more then the recommended dosage. I was looking it up last night (at work atm) and by taking the recommended dosage it would not be enough to throw you over the limit.

If anything, the manufacturers of the drug should be the one warning consumers about the possibility of having an alcoholic content and the possibility of it coming up on a breath test. As said before, anything can be further tested via blood tests.

You choose the medication... cold medicine is not the only thing that can bring up these sorts of issues and most of the time they have warnings like 'don't operate heavy equipment.'
But what about the new drivers, who aren't allowed more than 0.00% alcohol content in their blood?

Yes, it's the manufactuers responsibility to warn people of these things, but they certainly take none of the blame when you get pulled over and arrested for having alcohol in your bloodstream.

Further tests may clear the issue, that must be a pretty big hassle. And I'm sure at least some tests have errors that make people get fined for drinking and driving when all they took was cold medication or whatever.

But what about the new drivers, who aren't allowed more than 0.00% alcohol content in their blood?
Like me?
Yes, it's the manufactuers responsibility to warn people of these things, but they certainly take none of the blame when you get pulled over and arrested for having alcohol in your bloodstream.
[original] alcohol, citric acid, D&C Yellow No. 10, FD&C Green No. 3, FD&C Yellow No. 6, flavor, high fructose corn syrup, polyethylene glycol, propylene glycol, purified water, saccharin sodium, sodium citrate
[cherry] alcohol, citric acid, FD&C Blue No. 1, FD&C Red No. 40, flavor, high fructose corn syrup, polyethylene glycol, propylene glycol, purified water, saccharin sodium, sodium citrate
Uh, sorry officer, I didn't read the label?

I have no problem with the 0.00% limit for new drivers, and .05% for experienced ones(aus). As a driver of a one tonne piece of steel and rubber, you are responsible for what you have in your system. If you feel that you should drive after having medicine containing alcohol, fine and so be it. By doing so, however you run the risk of breaking the biggest law in transport. Don't drink and drive. So you taking medication, so be it. Most of the time if you have the bottle on you the police will ask for a story, and if they are sure it was the medicine (which isn't that hard to convince them of) they will let you go, warning you that the medicine does contain alcohol and to be more careful. If they don't believe you, they can take you in and you can get a blood test. Yes, it is a pain in the ass and a waste of time, but as said, you made the choice to use that particular cold medicine. Vicks aren't the only brand of cold medicine out there.
Further tests may clear the issue, that must be a pretty big hassle. And I'm sure at least some tests have errors that make people get fined for drinking and driving when all they took was cold medication or whatever.
Over the small amount that is taken in the recommended dosage, if contested in court will most likely be dismissed. If the user is chugging the bottle down like it's cordial is abusing the medication and not adhering to it's guidelines, with the knowledge that it contains alcohol. If they get behind the wheel, their responsibility.

Of course, there is a chance that in a situation of driver having their license suspended for the second time for DUI is pulled over after having medicine that contains alcohol is arrested, then they really should have known better.

Not reading the label is not an excuse.

I think that the drinking age (21) is fair. There are stupid teenagers like me... (notice I said like me. meaning not all teens...) who go out and do stupid stuff because they can get a little tipsy off 1 beer... yeah 1 beer. Drinking got me into a lot of trouble... a lot. Not like legally or anything... but only a select number of people know what I'm talking about. Some get out and drive and it kills people... yeah it acctuially does. My grandmother's aunt was killed by a drunk driver. I've ridden in a car with a drunk driver and luckily I got her to stop the car before we ran off the road and hit a tree.
Un responsible teens do not need to drink. I mean, I can see drinking if you are around people you know... (but you can't really trust anyone can you?) and if your not drving... it's easy to think your not drunk... when you really are. So if you drink... especially if you are a girl, please becareful. :(
I'm not against drinking... just against the irresponsible ones who drink.

I think that the drinking age (21) is fair. There are stupid teenagers like me... (notice I said like me. meaning not all teens...) who go out and do stupid stuff because they can get a little tipsy off 1 beer... yeah 1 beer. Drinking got me into a lot of trouble... a lot.........
Okay, so let me get this straight. You think that the drinking age limit is fair, yet you have obviously drank before even though you are underage. If you still drink I find this very hypocritical.

The other part of your post bugged me a bit too. So what you're saying is that everybody else who know when to stop should be penalised because some teenagers have no self control?

I find this issue clodely related to the whole legalising drugs argument. Take away the illegal aspect of a drug, social or otherwise and you take away the mystery and appeal, leading to a decrease in some teens doing it to look cool.

Edit: Note the IF in the sentence "If you still drink I find this very hypocritical." ;)

[QUOTE=whisper_softly]I think that the drinking age (21) is fair. There are stupid teenagers like me... (notice I said like me. meaning not all teens...) who go out and do stupid stuff because they can get a little tipsy off 1 beer... yeah 1 beer. Drinking got me into a lot of trouble... a lot......... QUOTE]

Okay, so let me get this straight. You think that the drinking age limit is fair, yet you have obviously drank before even though you are underage. If you still drink I find this very hypocritical.

The other part of your post bugged me a bit too. So what you're saying is that everybody else who know when to stop should be penalised because some teenagers have no self control?

I find this issue clodely related to the whole legalising drugs argument. Take away the illegal aspect of a drug, social or otherwise and you take away the mystery and appeal, leading to a decrease in some teens doing it to look cool.
"Drinking got me into a lot of trouble... a lot........."
Meaning, I did drink, maybe I shuld have clarified it better. I do not drink anymore. I guess that I'm undecided about the whole age thing. There are adults that act stupid too.
But, statistics show that more teens are likely to be in "accidents" than adults... I think it's the same... but anyways...
Ever been in school, one kid pulls a prank on the teacher and the whole class gets into trouble, weither they were in on it or not? Kinda the same deal. It's not fair.
Then again, neither is the fact that miscarragies happen to mothers who want to keep there children. Abortions, not fair to the babies that die. Rape, not fair to the victim. Kids at Columbine... (sp) for believing in Christ, they were shot. Life is full of things that aren't fair. They drinking age isn't one of them.
The gov't or whatever set these rules "for your own saftey"

These are my opions, I'm not saying I'm right... and I'm not being hypocrtical.

just to throw in the situation of another country - austria:

objectively spoken:
here in austria, we allowed to drink beer, wine etc (softer stuff) at the of 16. with 18, you count as an adult. therefore you can do your driving licence, vote at elections, drink whatever you want and/or buy a gun. driving drunk (more than 0.5 per mill) is strictly forbidden and is charged with very high penaltys. sex in all kind of forms in which both agree on, is allowed after both are over 14.

my personal experience:
i first encountered alcohol at the age of 16, but it was harder stuff as well. once i've started to expierence it, i tried most of it. it's a normal process, to be curious about your limititations and the taste and effects of alcohol. well, after awhile, it settled down just like any other "new" thing. like buying a new car - first you are crazy about it and then it gets normal. nowadays i drink from time to time if i want to - either for the taste or the effect. that's the usual development almost every teenager around here gets through. it was the same with all of my friends. you taste/test alcohol, like it or not, and thats it. no big deal.
of course, some don't manage to deal with it so well and in worst cases get addicted, but heavier age limititation wouldn't do any help. if a problem with alcohol is set to happen, then the age doenst matter, whether its 16, 18 or 21. if you have an addictive personality, age regulation won't help that much.

well we could do it like norwat their legal age for everything is eighteen so if ya want to get Messed up and screw your life over go a head, but then again most of them are in college at age 16 too.

The drinking age in Germany, and in many other places, is 16. I think that the US should at least lower it to 18...21 is kind of unreasonable, I think.

Well, the drinking age over here is 18, so I think it's fair. You don't want to be drunk while you still have to go to school and stuff, it'll just (well, it might) mess up your school life. I do think 21 is a little unfair. Mbmanus is right, if he is old enough to take on such big resposibilities, surely he is old enough to take that one.

Over here it's the same age (18) and i totally agree with you...

i totally seee your point he shopuld have been able to drink but what were you supposed to do it was illegal and you could have been seriously in trouble good call on wat you did and the drinking age should be lowered.

i totally seee your point he shopuld have been able to drink but what were you supposed to do it was illegal and you could have been seriously in trouble good call on wat you did and the drinking age should be lowered.
If it weren't for the full stop at the end, that would be one of the longest punctuation-free sentences I'd ever read.

Now... why should it be lowered? Give us your wisdom...