What do you all think about the current sentiment towards the United States from the rest of the world? A recent study showed that many other countries, including Mexico and Canada, strongly dislikes us and our foreign policies.

To me, this just solidifies what we are doing in the war on terror. People dislike the leader, and we are the leader in the war on terror. Countries are going to dislike us and what we are doing until they have a terrorist attack in their country as Russia can attest.

In order to be a leader, you have to do what's RIGHT and what is sometimes very unpopular in order to accomplish great things. That goes for individuals as well as for nations. You have to set a course and then stay true to that course in order to be successful as a leader. You need a vision, and you need to have a mission. America's vision and mission is to rid the world of terror and to make it a safer place for everyone, including those countries that hate us so much. You can't be cow-towing to the Frances and Mexicos of the world when your mission is much greater than what anybody ever thinks of you.

And as far as Mexico hating us so much, let them. As long as they keep flooding across our borders and into our country illegally, they have no room to talk.

America has recieved alot of bad media over in the UK, with conspircies and the war on terror. I don't think George W Bush is a good leader. I don't think alot of people like him because they say he is un-intellegent. I think America is a nice, prospoerous country.

Trust me, you really don't wanna know how the media bashes the US over here...

A recent study showed that many other countries, including Mexico and Canada, strongly dislikes us and our foreign policies.
They sure are friendly and up our US ass when it's time for the US to shell out money to help them.

I guess you're right. They don't seem to have too big a view of them over in the Middle East, either. I know Bush is just trying to do what he can for his country, so I don't see why people bash him so much. It's not easy being a world leader. Oh yeah, and I saw that thing about the 9/11 Conspiracies, about how the Government planned the attack. I seriously find that hard to believe :rolleyes: I mean, I can understand that they may have overlooked some significant warnings, but I doubt very much they would do something as horrific as that. I think maybe that's why some people may have an unpopular view of America over here. Or well, namely Bush.

I don't think it's fair how some people think of America...well, I don't think it's America they really dislike, but the leader. You should hear my dad go on about him :rolleyes: and Blair. I still don't understand why people are so hostile to America...I can understand from the viewpoint of Iraq or something, but otherwise I see no reason for it.

You are so right, ToB.

As for me, I neither know nor care what foreign opinion of the US is. I guarantee you that if they need our help, they will change their tune - and quickly. The whole world is one backstabbing bitch to the US, and I can't stand it. But, good people that we are, we still have to play helping hand to every last one of them.

The French don't like us? Well, we don't particularly love the French either (ok, John Kerry does, but the rest of us? No.) They would be speaking German if it wasn't for our help. I am so sick of stinky French people acting like they're better than everyone else. To me, the best cheese comes from Wisconsin and the best wine from Sonoma Valley. They will hate us until they need our help again. And then you best believe that they will be knocking on our door. No offense to any French people on this board. This is an overgeneralization, but Americans have never been truly embraced by the French. For instance, all the French know English, but won't speak it with a traveler. This implies that they think they are superior to us. And they're not. By the way, I'm not making that up. My friend just got back from a trip to Paris. The French even ignored her attempts to speak French. She was lost in the subway for hours trying to find her way back, and no one would help her. So I guess I'm bitter.

Canadians in general may dislike us because they are a quiet nation of peace, while we are louder. Canada is like the quiet kid in the corner who never bothers anyone, while America is simply louder, more boisterous in debate and opinion. Who's more likely to get into a fight? We are. And terrorists attack us, not Canada. They have no idea how the fear of terrorism affects Americans. They don't experience as much terrorism because they are not as involved in trying to keep the peace. Funny that to keep peace, we have to go to war. :(

As for Mexico, why are THEY pissed at us? I must have missed that one!

As I said, just watch. When France, or Mexico, or Canada has a huge terrorist attack, you bet that they'll be asking for our help. And we won't say no, because that's our character.

<3 Mary

You are so right, ToB.

The French don't like us? Well, we don't particularly love the French either (ok, John Kerry does, but the rest of us? No.) They would be speaking German if it wasn't for our help. I am so sick of stinky French people acting like they're better than everyone else. To me, the best cheese comes from Wisconsin and the best wine from Sonoma Valley. They will hate us until they need our help again. And then you best believe that they will be knocking on our door. No offense to any French people on this board. This is an overgeneralization, but Americans have never been truly embraced by the French. For instance, all the French know English, but won't speak it with a traveler. This implies that they think they are superior to us. And they're not. By the way, I'm not making that up. My friend just got back from a trip to Paris. The French even ignored her attempts to speak French. She was lost in the subway for hours trying to find her way back, and no one would help her. So I guess I'm bitter.

<3 Mary


i'm French and i love your country, i even have the American flag on my wall.... ;)
you are right you Americans helped us a lot in the past and thank God you were there but don't forget where you all come from : europe .... maybe you have French blood and you don't know it....lol
and please don't tell me you don't like french cheese.....neufchatel is the best when you put it 10 seconds in the micro-wave... :D

i'm French and i love your country, i even have the American flag on my wall.... ;)
you are right you Americans helped us a lot in the past and thank God you were there but don't forget where you all come from : europe .... maybe you have French blood and you don't know it....lol
and please don't tell me you don't like french cheese.....neufchatel is the best when you put it 10 seconds in the micro-wave... :D
You are an exception to the phenomenon I am speaking of. Thank you. I don't have any French blood. I am half Irish, 1/4 Cherokee, and 1/4 South American. Not everybody came from Europe. Besides, I object more to the French attitude than to the French bloodline, if that makes any sense. In other words, were I a French person, I would still object to the snobbish attitude of those around me.

Oh, and as for Neufchatel? We have American cream cheese, which is a little different, but very similar. I've never microwaved it though. I'll have to try that.

<3 Mary

Trust me, you really don't wanna know how the media bashes the US over here...

I agree.

There are very few who can see beyond the US foreign policy: I mean American citizenship daily routine instead of your Government actions.

Europeans dislike you because most believe that Americans are kinky arrogant people.

But we know that ToB is the only kinky American moron. Heh! :D

Europeans dislike you because most believe that Americans are kinky arrogant people.
Europeans think we're KINKY? You've got to be kidding me!

Europeans think we're KINKY? You've got to be kidding me!

Most Europeans believe their countries are more civilizated because got a history, roots, no Death Penalty and are closer friends of Russia and the Middle East now... :/

ew... a little bit hypocrite I think.

But Europeans are not united anyway, too many different languages and cultures, even within the own borders. Too complicated society structure many times.

Nah... never mind... :)

As for Mexico, why are THEY pissed at us? I must have missed that one!

As I said, just watch. When France, or Mexico, or Canada has a huge terrorist attack, you bet that they'll be asking for our help. And we won't say no, because that's our character.
Mexico is pissed at us because in the Mexican-American war(1846-48) we conquered roughly 1/3 of their country. The modern Southwest, including all of New Mexico, Arizona, about half of California, half of Nevada, parts of Utah, and a huge chunk of Texas used to be Mexican real-estate. So when Robert E. Lee, Zachary Taylor and co. marched in, there weren't many happy mexicans thereafter.

Furthermore, it seems as though the world views the 'war on terror' as an American issue that keeps fucking with everyone else's respective countries. For example, the US support of Israel has caused a lot of resentment in the Middle East, not to metion the fact that Western Society and its common perceptions and practices are considered disgusting by many middle eastern societies(treatment of women, materialism, energy consumption, obesity, etc.).

As for the rest of the world disliking us, some of the same reasons that the middle east doesn't like us are the same with other countries. It seems as though the general perception of the US in other countries is a hedonistic, slovenly, consumptive, and wasteful society. I briefly lived in Italy a few years ago and the general complaints with Americans were set on a very basic level. The Italian waiters and cab drivers were simply waiters and cab drivers who didn't like people intrusively asking dumbass questions, taking pictures of everything in sight, aughing like a hyenia, getting drunk of your ass and vomiting all over someone's property(i can attest to seeing all of those first hand).

So besides all of that, the war in Iraq hasn't made us any new friends in the international community for financial reasons. France, Germany, and Russia had vast investments in Iraqi oil before the war started. Now that we've invaded they've lost enormous sums of money with the regime change. Last week, top Russian officials said that they would eradicate all global terrorists bases. Its interesting, however, because the Madrid train bombings had the exact opposite effect as the hostage situation.

I kinda wish their was a death penalty in the UK, the police are way to leaniant here.. In America they have done the right thing by being strict Our history is filled with death.

As my grandmother always banters on about: They should get rid of all these Murderers (she still lives in the oldern days in her mind lol)

Canadians in general may dislike us because they are a quiet nation of peace, while we are louder. Canada is like the quiet kid in the corner who never bothers anyone, while America is simply louder, more boisterous in debate and opinion. Who's more likely to get into a fight? We are. And terrorists attack us, not Canada. They have no idea how the fear of terrorism affects Americans. They don't experience as much terrorism because they are not as involved in trying to keep the peace. Funny that to keep peace, we have to go to war. :(

<3 Mary

I have actively participated in the other thread on terrorism, and after reading this as well as another post in that thread, I realized I am out of line saying many of the things I did. I am not affected by the terrorist attacks, so my stance/argument was "Why does the US have the right to go into other countries and kill their people (and obviously violating their national security and also International laws) all in the name of their own national security?" To me, that doesn't make sense, and probably never will. But I do not feel the same way about terrorism as someone living in a country that is under terrorist attack. While I am still opposed to the US sending the military to the Middle East, I am more neutral, and understanding of the action than before. I realize that a terrorist attack on one's country, whether or not one is directly affected or not, will create huge psychological impacts, and of course, retaliation. Thanks for letting me realize this, and I will in the future try to stop making arguments for/against something which I have not truly experienced myself. :)

There are alot of reasons some countries hate us.

I think alot of it is sheer jealousy. They hate us because we have what they want. We are the most secure country in the world.

Muslim extremists hate us because Islam used to be the dominant religion in the world, until Christianity took over, and these extremists use the ignornance of the poor citizens of their country to direct their hate towards us.

It comes down to its so much easier to blame others for your problems, then to face them and solve them yourselves.

Yes it is true that the U.S. has done some pretty bad things to other countries, but not to the extent the media would have us believe.

We are the most secure country in the world.
Not really. I'd say that Canada is a lot more secure than the US, simply because they stay out of international conflicts.

Muslim extremists hate us because Islam used to be the dominant religion in the world, until Christianity took over, and these extremists use the ignornance of the poor citizens of their country to direct their hate towards us. I think that Christianity and Islam are roughly the same size; I know that Islam is growing faster, however.

Muslim extremists hate us because Islam used to be the dominant religion in the world, until Christianity took over,

What? When???


I don't necessarily care what other countries think, but it might be a good idea to not totally alienate them considering that we are eventually going to need their help, just based on sheer numbers. We already had to pull crucial troops out of Afghanistan for our little adventure in Iraq... what, are we gonna wait 5-6 years until Iraq sorts itself out and then move on to the next country? The war on terror is going to come to a screeching halt if we don't take other nations' concerns into consideration... we just won't have enough bodies if we do it all by ourselves!!

As for "just wait til <insert country here> has a terrorist attack"... yeah, that's funny considering France was a target for terrorism before we even knew what terrorism was. And Mexico has been fighting a civil war in Chiapas for as long as I can remember so it's not like they are terror virgins either. It's the United States that is the new kid on the block when it comes to terrorism. Canada will never have a terrorist attack for the same reason Iceland will never have a terrorist attack... nobody gives a rat's ass about Canada. Also, look at Spain, they had a major terror attack and I don't see Paco on the block in Barcelona kissing our feet yet... so, uh... when's that gonna start?

What? When???


I don't necessarily care what other countries think, but it might be a good idea to not totally alienate them considering that we are eventually going to need their help, just based on sheer numbers. We already had to pull crucial troops out of Afghanistan for our little adventure in Iraq... what, are we gonna wait 5-6 years until Iraq sorts itself out and then move on to the next country? The war on terror is going to come to a screeching halt if we don't take other nations' concerns into consideration... we just won't have enough bodies if we do it all by ourselves!!

As for "just wait til <insert country here> has a terrorist attack"... yeah, that's funny considering France was a target for terrorism before we even knew what terrorism was. And Mexico has been fighting a civil war in Chiapas for as long as I can remember so it's not like they are terror virgins either. It's the United States that is the new kid on the block when it comes to terrorism. Canada will never have a terrorist attack for the same reason Iceland will never have a terrorist attack... nobody gives a rat's ass about Canada. Also, look at Spain, they had a major terror attack and I don't see Paco on the block in Barcelona kissing our feet yet... so, uh... when's that gonna start?

Fun little thread. . thanks for the support from those outside the US. WE appreciate it. . really we do.

One thing to point out Sheep. . the Terrorist attack on Spain was to influence their elections and put the person in power who would do what the TERRORISTS wanted them to do . .it WORKED!!! Their PM is either secretly in league with, or scared to death of, terrorists organizations, and Spain will never respond except locally (some 15-20 have been arrested over the attacks), and will keep itself well outside the realm of the "War on Terror" since they have proven that reprisals will work against them (making them pretty much a non factor in any world actions for a long time to come).

ToB is mostly correct, however. . . the US does more for the rest of the world, than any other Nation . .yet we are spat upon and vilified. Anything we do is condemned by very vocal and jealous opponents. .Well. .Screw Em all!!! GW Bush said it properly .. you are either with us. .or against us.

Ok guys, since you’ve started that topic…
Before you read all my text below, I want you to understand a few things. Please don’t take me wrong ‘cause I have nothing against America, against its people, I respect them, respect all of you, I just don’t approve the policy of your country. I understand that you’re a real patriots of your country. That is laudable indeed.
I was going to write completely different words but your arguments made me write what I wrote. If my words somehow offend anyone, I apologize.
Ok, back to the topic. As I was reading all your posts, I saw through them only one thing - selfishness. Just hear yourself:
People dislike the leader, and we are the leader in the war on terror. In order to be a leader, you have to do what's RIGHT and what is sometimes very unpopular in order to accomplish great things. That goes for individuals as well as for nations. You have to set a course and then stay true to that course in order to be successful as a leader. America's vision and mission is to rid the world of terror and to make it a safer place for everyone, including those countries that hate us so much.
World leader… accomplish great things… America's vision and mission… What are you talking about? I must have missed such little detail as the whole WORLD proclaiming America as a WORLD’S leader and that now every country has to grovel at your feet begging to safe them from terrorists and each other.
I know Bush is just trying to do what he can for his country, so I don't see why people bash him so much. It's not easy being a world leader.
Oh indeed, there’s nothing to bash him for, especially that he is OUR leader now. I’m just curious, do you know where was Bush when Twins were attacked? He was flying in his plane over country ‘cause he was tooo afraid to get a terrorist kick on his butt.
Who's more likely to get into a fight? We are. And terrorists attack us. They have no idea how the fear of terrorism affects Americans. They don't experience as much terrorism because they are not as involved in trying to keep the peace.
I’m posting here as a person living in a country that has undergone terrorists attacks for the last 5-6 years, they’ve blown up apartment houses, bus stops, metro stations, pedestrian subways, cars, planes, blown up themselves in a centre of mass open festivals/parties, took hostages (in the theatre and school), killed many of them including kids… Moreover, all these attacks started much earlier than 9/11 but I’m sure you don’t even know of them except for the tragedy in Beslan maybe. So believe me I know what that fear is. I knew it before 9/11 And what about all of you?
There are very few who can see beyond the US foreign policy: I mean American citizenship daily routine instead of your Government actions.
That’s a point, of course people must distinguish daily routine and Government actions. They must learn not to extend their anger on common people like you and me, ‘cause we aren’t in charge of any decisions and actions our countries perform, but we are in charge when we elect people in government. I know that there will be President Elections in your country soon, hope you’ll do the right choice.
"Why does the US have the right to go into other countries and kill their people (and obviously violating their national security and also International laws) all in the name of their own national security?"
Please anybody answer me this question. Bush send troops in Iraq ‘cause of the weapons that were thought to be there and that were thought to be a real thread to your country. However, they found no weapons there, so what was the real reason/cause?
There are alot of reasons some countries hate us. I think alot of it is sheer jealousy. They hate us because we have what they want. We are the most secure country in the world.
You make yourself blind of your own free will and you’ve become too self-confidence. 11th of September is a real proof of that. Bush’s got warnings about future terract but he ignored them ‘cause he thought the same way – no one would dare to harm America. Terrorists have proved him wrong, they proved that even America isn’t almighty. In addition, if I were American I would have considered such events as a hard lesson of life.

But you still sure that you’re the most secure country in the world, you’re a leader, you’re the best, you alone could do anything possible and impossible… Bush is a world leader…and so on and so on… Somehow, such words piss me off. They make me feel miserable, but I know that it’s not true, but I can’t help myself and think about that again and again.
it might be a good idea to not totally alienate other countries considering that we are eventually going to need their help
Think of that too guys.

Somehow I didn't manage to say good things here, sorry I'll do it in my next post.

World leader… accomplish great things… America's vision and mission… What are you talking about? I must have missed such little detail as the whole WORLD proclaiming America as a WORLD’S leader and that now every country has to grovel at your feet begging to safe them from terrorists and each other.
Where in my statement did I say that anybody declared America leader? REAL world leaders are not appointed by the nations (read: UN), but leaders lead by example. That's what the US does. We are the economic, militaristic, and supposed human rights leader. Nobody appointed the US to do this; we've stepped into a void that needed to be filled by someone, anyone! Nobody needs to grovel at the feet of America; they need to either lead or follow. Nobody is leading, so therefore they're following.

I’m just curious, do you know where was Bush when Twins were attacked? He was flying in his plane over country ‘cause he was tooo afraid to get a terrorist kick on his butt.
Actually, he was in a school reading to children at the time.

I’m posting here as a person living in a country that has undergone terrorists attacks for the last 5-6 years, they’ve blown up apartment houses, bus stops, metro stations, pedestrian subways, cars, planes, blown up themselves in a centre of mass open festivals/parties, took hostages (in the theatre and school), killed many of them including kids… Moreover, all these attacks started much earlier than 9/11 but I’m sure you don’t even know of them except for the tragedy in Beslan maybe. So believe me I know what that fear is. I knew it before 9/11 And what about all of you?
And what has your government done about it? What would you choose for them to do about it? Until the Beslan massacre, your government and your people weren't doing anything about it. Our government has done something about it and there hasn't been another terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11.

Please anybody answer me this question. Bush send troops in Iraq ‘cause of the weapons that were thought to be there and that were thought to be a real thread to your country. However, they found no weapons there, so what was the real reason/cause?
The UN said there were weapons in Iraq, but refused to do anything other than pass "resolutions". The US backed the UN's decision even when they refused to do so themselves. Saddam has had a history of using WMD's (chemical, biological, nuclear, whatever) against his OWN PEOPLE; how much more would he want to use these against the "infidels?" Saddam was a horrible man and committed HORRIBLE atrocities on his people. That, to me, was reason enough to go in there and take him out.

Terrorists have proved him wrong, they proved that even America isn’t almighty. In addition, if I were American I would have considered such events as a hard lesson of life.
That is the difference between America and the rest of the world. These kinds of attacks on our people just strengthen our resolve to do something about the world we live in. In other places people cower in fear trying to appease the terrorists, but we won't do that in America anymore. The terrorists attacked us, thinking we were weak, fat, and stupid. But what they did was wake us up and they do NOT like what they are getting from us now.

But you still sure that you’re the most secure country in the world, you’re a leader, you’re the best, you alone could do anything possible and impossible… Bush is a world leader…and so on and so on… Somehow, such words piss me off. They make me feel miserable, but I know that it’s not true, but I can’t help myself and think about that again and again.
We are. Like I said earlier, you lead by example, not by sitting idly and watching the world fly by. When you are attacked, you push back. You don't wait for it to happen again. You take the fight to THEM instead of waiting for another attack to happen on your soil.

I know that most forgein coutries don't like us, and honestly, it's not hard to see why. I am an American, and I love my country, but when you look from the outside in, you can see why we are disliked so much.

I haven't read any of the arguments here or anything, i'll let that be known straight out
However,
I think it's just fashionable to hate america.
That it's done because its seen as the morally right thing to do and upstanding crap and all of that.
Personally, I don't really care.
I don't like Bush, he's a business man (not a very good one) and not a politician,
I don't like the southern american accent (mississippi) it drives me up the wall :P
But they're my opinions and they really don't count for much in the grand scheme of things.
On the whole, The individual isn't held accountable for the actions taken under the guise of the "collective"

I know that most forgein coutries don't like us, and honestly, it's not hard to see why. I am an American, and I love my country, but when you look from the outside in, you can see why we are disliked so much.

You're leaving us hanging here. Why do you think we are disliked?

Not really. I'd say that Canada is a lot more secure than the US, simply because they stay out of international conflicts.
I think that Christianity and Islam are roughly the same size; I know that Islam is growing faster, however.
As of 2000, there were approximately 1,999,563,838 Christians in the world, about 33% of the world's population. There were 1,188,242,789 Muslims, about 20% of the world's population. Islam does have a higher growth rate though, 1.36% to 2.13%. (Source (http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm)) However, I don't see our involvement in international conflicts as a conflict between Christianity and Islam. Truthfully, it is a conflict between a world superpower and radical terrorists, whether Islamic, Christian, or otherwise.

And what has your government done about it? What would you choose for them to do about it? Until the Beslan massacre, your government and your people weren't doing anything about it. Our government has done something about it and there hasn't been another terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11.
After 9/11 you've been poisoned with anthrax and I didn't see any serious attempts from your government to stop that. As for the fighting terrorism you must have forgotten that our country began to fight terrorists long ago with the war in Chechnya - the origin of terrorism. Your country blamed us for these actions instead of helping. We knew then about the thread coming from Chechnya. But you only accused us. Nevertheless, you’ve woken up only after 11/09 and “start” the war against the terrorism. And now you proclaimed America “the leader in the war on terror”
In addition, you know nothing about our government's attempts to stop them, ‘cause your media is too busy broadcasting such important news as Clinton's heart operation, elections preparation and so on even in the days the tragedy in Beslan occurred. And now you’re telling me about how concerned you’re with terrorism?

The UN said there were weapons in Iraq, but refused to do anything other than pass "resolutions".
The UN delegation didn’t find anything in Iraq not before, nor after the war. That’s why they’ve passed the resolution.

That is the difference between America and the rest of the world. These kinds of attacks on our people just strengthen our resolve to do something about the world we live in.
You’ve drawn other countries into the war in Iraq and they pay for that with death ‘caused by terracts. But I didn’t see how you protecting them.

Actually, he was in a school reading to children at the time.
Of course reading books... What else would President of a country do when planes had crashed to the Twins and Pentagon? Have I written something else? Hmm, sorry I must have been mistaken...

I think that America is obsessed with Terrorism at the moment. I think that 9/11 gave everyone a bloody nose and we were all totally outraged and angry and rightly so. But we've allowed it to reach fever pitch... I think the fallout is causing arguments between nation states that used to be inseperably close...

I seem to recall that the Statue of Liberty was a gift to America from France.

I think it's sad that America has trodden on so many toes to express her outrage at a group of extremists, even though we don't know who they are or where the are. We know how Americans can react when they're scared of something - remember McCarthy? Witch-hunts for anyone suspected of being a Communist? You could get locked up for refusing to state if you were a communist sympathiser or not. And now we've got Guantanamo bay.

America is the last superpower on the planet. With that comes an awesome responsibility to look after weaker countries. I'm just worried that this "you're with us or you're against us" policy is going to end in tears with America waking up to find itself as the biggest bully on the block that no-one wants to play with anymore.

I miss what America used to be 5 years ago.

And it's hard being British in Europe at the moment - cos it's not like everyone here doesn't laugh at the English anyway - now we Brits are the only country left that is really standing up for America.

All of this sounded really negative, and I'm sorry for that, but I think it's what you wanted to hear.

Hell with it - I still love ya. Well, most of you. :p

After 9/11 you've been poisoned with anthrax and I didn't see any serious attempts from your government to stop that. As for the fighting terrorism you must have forgotten that our country began to fight terrorists long ago with the war in Chechnya - the origin of terrorism. Your country blamed us for these actions instead of helping. We knew then about the thread coming from Chechnya. But you only accused us. Nevertheless, you’ve woken up only after 11/09 and “start” the war against the terrorism. And now you proclaimed America “the leader in the war on terror”
In addition, you know nothing about our government's attempts to stop them, ‘cause your media is too busy broadcasting such important news as Clinton's heart operation, elections preparation and so on even in the days the tragedy in Beslan occurred. And now you’re telling me about how concerned you’re with terrorism?

As to your point about Russia dealing with Chechnya and the civil war you guys have going on; it's a completely different situation. Has Russia ever asked for the US's help in the war against Chechnya? No. They've specifically asked for everyone to stay away from their internal affairs. They can handle it. They don't need anybody's help.



The UN delegation didn’t find anything in Iraq not before, nor after the war. That’s why they’ve passed the resolution.

Um, actually you have your facts mixed up. This wasn't as much about finding WMD, as it was about holding Saddam accountable to his obligations.

13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;



You’ve drawn other countries into the war in Iraq and they pay for that with death ‘caused by terracts. But I didn’t see how you protecting them.
Other countries have joined us willingly, out of their own volition.


Of course reading books... What else would President of a country do when planes had crashed to the Twins and Pentagon? Have I written something else? Hmm, sorry I must have been mistaken...
He could have been taking a crap, walking his dog, having a meeting with Tony Blair, performing cold fusion in the basement of the White House, developing a cure for cancer in the woodshed out behind the White House, etc, etc, etc and you would still have a problem with whatever he was doing.

I seem to recall that the Statue of Liberty was a gift to America from France.
Yeah. Because we helped them out by distracting Britain. The war for independence, in my mind, wouldn't have exploded if it hadn't been advantageous for France. Anyway, that was over 200 years ago.

He could have been taking a crap, walking his dog, having a meeting with Tony Blair, performing cold fusion in the basement of the White House, developing a cure for cancer in the woodshed out behind the White House, etc, etc, etc and you would still have a problem with whatever he was doing.
See, you were doing fine with the crapping and dog-walking... Then you took it too far. :p

There are alot of reasons some countries hate us.
I think alot of it is sheer jealousy. They hate us because we have what they want. We are the most secure country in the world.
Muslim extremists hate us because Islam used to be the dominant religion in the world, until Christianity took over, and these extremists use the ignornance of the poor citizens of their country to direct their hate towards us.
It comes down to its so much easier to blame others for your problems, then to face them and solve them yourselves.
Yes it is true that the U.S. has done some pretty bad things to other countries, but not to the extent the media would have us believe.

I think that forein countries don`t hate u. They just criticize u. And criticism is god, `couse it can show you on your mistakes and deficits.
Each country has weak sides in its military defence, so you can`t be the most secure country in the world. 11/9 have shown this. If terrorists decide to arrange terract, they`ll do it in any country.
Religion don`t play the main role.Christianity have been the dominant religion since some century BC. Islam appeared only in 5 or 6 century. Extremists use religion to warrant themselves.
America and other countres should forget about difficulties. We should team up in fight with terrorism.

I think that forein countries don`t hate u. They just criticize u. And criticism is god, `couse it can show you on your mistakes and deficits.
Each country has weak sides in its military defence, so you can`t be the most secure country in the world. 11/9 have shown this. If terrorists decide to arrange terract, they`ll do it in any country.
Religion don`t play the main role.Christianity have been the dominant religion since some century BC. Islam appeared only in 5 or 6 century. Extremists use religion to warrant themselves.
America and other countres should forget about difficulties. We should team up in fight with terrorism.

Orgi . . please define "Mistake". . wait. .I'll do it for you.

Mistake:. .1) a word to communicate that everyone else in the world thnks you should do it a different way. . even though THEIR way has never worked.

As ToB has intimated . .ANY "Team" we have will have the US in the lead, and other countries following behind. . .I can't remember the last time ANY other country besides the US took the "Lead" in ANY international crisis. America "Goes it alone" because NO ONE ELSE CAN DO IT!. . it's as simple as that. If we waited for the French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, India or UN to lead the way ..NOTHING would ever get done. In 20 years. .has anyone besides the US taken the lead in ANY International Crisis (Besides the Falklands War . .Hail Britannia!!!!!)

America is THE world superpower, THE world leader, and THE country that is most villified because we are GOOD at what we do. Excuse me. .but may I suggest a serving of Americus Buskus Buttockus to the rest of the world???

2

This is the last time I don't keep in touch with a thread I've posted in. Ever.

World leader… accomplish great things… America's vision and mission… What are you talking about? I must have missed such little detail as the whole WORLD proclaiming America as a WORLD’S leader and that now every country has to grovel at your feet begging to safe them from terrorists and each other.

America is the most prosperous nation in the world. If it isn't the most it is definately one of the very top. Also, our country is the symbol for freedom. When you think of a "free country," isn't America what you think of? It's our idea and determination to be free so long ago that has crumbled monarchies. If you look at and question growing nations, their ideal lifestyle IS the US lifestyle. For this reason we are the "WORLD'S leader." It was not something we took (do you really think the US wants to do something like fart and have it made worldwide news? no), it was something that was expected of us and forced upon us.

Please anybody answer me this question. Bush send troops in Iraq ‘cause of the weapons that were thought to be there and that were thought to be a real thread to your country. However, they found no weapons there, so what was the real reason/cause?

Bush did send troops to Iraq because of weapons, but remember--he did this on false information. This information was not his fault, and he was assured by the highest officials that the information was true. Bush made the best decision he could with the information he had, you can't blame him for that.

You make yourself blind of your own free will and you’ve become too self-confidence. 11th of September is a real proof of that. Bush’s got warnings about future terract but he ignored them ‘cause he thought the same way – no one would dare to harm America. Terrorists have proved him wrong, they proved that even America isn’t almighty. In addition, if I were American I would have considered such events as a hard lesson of life.

America gets tons of threats! Every single threat has to be searched and investigated. We almost can't take every single threat we get seriously, it could be from a 9 year old who watches Die Hard too much. The threats weren't ignored, they just didn't have enough evidence to back them up.

We knew then about the thread coming from Chechnya. But you only accused us.
That phrase sounds eerily similar to the fact that we spoke of the threat from Iraq, but instead of support we were accused of going there for our own selfish reasons (note the fact that some of the countries most opposed were profiting from Iraq and didn't want to invade for their own selfish reasons).

In addition, you know nothing about our government's attempts to stop them, ‘cause your media is too busy broadcasting such important news as Clinton's heart operation, elections preparation and so on even in the days the tragedy in Beslan occurred. And now you’re telling me about how concerned you’re with terrorism?
Out of curiousity, what has your country done? Little to nothing was heard about them until the school incident. Because we were too busy talking about an ex-president, or because there wasn't much to say? Little to nothing was heard about your country until the school incident, and it was only after that Russia seemed to promote an end to terrorism (I mean terrorism as a whole, not just one's own country).

The UN delegation didn’t find anything in Iraq not before, nor after the war. That’s why they’ve passed the resolution.
It doesn't mean it wasn't there. The UN didn't enter Iraq for years, that gave the country plenty of time to hide anything they wished.

Of course reading books... What else would President of a country do when planes had crashed to the Twins and Pentagon? Have I written something else? Hmm, sorry I must have been mistaken...
Let's set up a scenario here. Let's say that your country's leader happened to have been taking a nap as hundreds of innocent children were being taken hostage. Given that statement, you shouldn't be offended by the fact that if this scenario were true we'd be calling him an ineffective and useless president.


America and other countres should forget about difficulties. We should team up in fight with terrorism.
I really wish that could happen. But we're all too damn stubborn.

I think America has some of the greatest ppl in the world living there. The ppl are amazing, but the government is horrible. I think the government is entirely different than the actual ppl living there. Bush is an ass. That is my opinion. He's dumb. He can't lead a country into prosperity. He's a liar. And hopefully he won't be elected again.

When the American elections come on...believe it or not...not only is America effected the WHOLE world is. Look at Iraq. Poor ppl suffered so much...for wat? The soldiers died for no justified reason. Bush better not be elected again. Dont like that bastard!!!!!!!! :mad:

The ppl are amazing, but the government is horrible. Bush is an ass. That is my opinion. He's dumb. He can't lead a country into prosperity. He's a liar.

The soldiers died for no justified reason.

You going to back that bullshit up with anything? I would really like for you to lay out for me on a case by case basis where Bush lied about things. Just so I could know where you're coming from and what you're talking about, so you could be argued with on each point. Or did you just let some highly liberal media organization/journalist pump you full of that same old crap without you thinking for yourself and just accepting it as the gospel? If you did, that's unfortunate because there's just way too many dumbasses in this world that believe what the tv tells them and go from there.

Did you read this? You might want to, and then think about it:
Bush did send troops to Iraq because of weapons, but remember--he did this on false information. This information was not his fault, and he was assured by the highest officials that the information was true. Bush made the best decision he could with the information he had, you can't blame him for that.

Personally, I believe the weapons were there and they were removed or destoryed right as the war was approaching because Saddam knew he could hurt Bush/America the most by making them look like asses in the eyes of the world. (Hint hint... not finding weapons... how convenient)

I think America has some of the greatest ppl in the world living there. The ppl are amazing, but the government is horrible. I think the government is entirely different than the actual ppl living there. Bush is an ass. That is my opinion. He's dumb. He can't lead a country into prosperity. He's a liar. And hopefully he won't be elected again.

When the American elections come on...believe it or not...not only is America effected the WHOLE world is. Look at Iraq. Poor ppl suffered so much...for wat? The soldiers died for no justified reason. Bush better not be elected again. Dont like that bastard!!!!!!!! :mad:


I'm just wondering where you get such information... the news? The internet? Would not doubt it. I'm laughing inside right now.

You are being spoon fed so much crap, I feel sorry for you.

The election is getting more and more ridiculous. :rolleyes: It's really Bush vs. anything-but-Bush. No one seems to care about how little Kerry has done throughout his political lifetime. It's ridiculous.

Bush did send troops to Iraq because of weapons, but remember--he did this on false information. This information was not his fault, and he was assured by the highest officials that the information was true. Bush made the best decision he could with the information he had, you can't blame him for that.
If you’re such a leading country how could your highest officials get the fault information on which depends such important decision whether to send troops in Iraq or not?
America gets tons of threats! Every single threat has to be searched and investigated. We almost can't take every single threat we get seriously, it could be from a 9 year old who watches Die Hard too much. The threats weren't ignored, they just didn't have enough evidence to back them up.
Yeah, don’t you think that such a threat about a seizure of three planes should be seriously considered at first place? As I can recall Bush’s got warnings several time. Please don’t justify such government mistake.
That phrase sounds eerily similar to the fact that we spoke of the threat from Iraq, but instead of support we were accused of going there for our own selfish reasons (note the fact that some of the countries most opposed were profiting from Iraq and didn't want to invade for their own selfish reasons).
Yes but the result/consequences are absolutely different. Every one only now understands what a great threat Chechnya is but your actions toward Iraq are still doubtful.
Out of curiosity, what has your country done? Little to nothing was heard about them until the school incident. Because we were too busy talking about an ex-president, or because there wasn't much to say? Little to nothing was heard about your country until the school incident, and it was only after that Russia seemed to promote an end to terrorism (I mean terrorism as a whole, not just one's own country).
During this time, we’ve caught and condemned so many rebels from Chechnya that if they were free terracts would increase three times. Or what actions are you talking about? Why haven’t we used our nuclear weapons to wipe Chechnya off the face of the earth?
Let's set up a scenario here. Let's say that your country's leader happened to have been taking a nap as hundreds of innocent children were being taken hostage. Given that statement, you shouldn't be offended by the fact that if this scenario were true we'd be calling him an ineffective and useless president.
We don’t need any scenarios we have concrete examples here.

Ok I understood one thing it’s nonsense for me to write some more arguments here, ‘cause almost all of you completely sure that whatever America do or done is or was unexampled right. And this fact defy any discussions. Whether we’re talking about war or peace America was, is and will be the hub of the universe. The question is what was the point of creation of this thread? Nobody of you even listen to a small amount of our foreign opinions, but find a justification to every US action by turning it into “yes we did that ‘cause that was very right”. As I said Americans here writing about America.


The ppl are amazing, but the government is horrible.

The election is getting more and more ridiculous. :rolleyes: It's really Bush vs. anything-but-Bush.

That's the same situation here in Britain, it's Tony Blar vs whoever isn't Tony Blair. Because nobody wants him in control again, but there's nobody to replace him. I'm expecting the weirdest ever election because nobody will vote Labour but a whole load of people will vote anything just to keep them out of power. Go Greens!!! Hehehe. I won't be voting for Blair anyway, hate the guy. He should think more about fixing the problems in Britain instead of going to war, country's going down the plughole with him in charge... he wants a ten hour schoolday? Is he mad?! The only decent thing he's done is try to ban foxhunting. *rant over*

As for America... I love you guys! One of my best ever friends is American. And hey I wanna live there someday. I just hate your president, who is in fact a moron, and a laughing-stock in the UK. I don't know anything about his policies, or if he's all trigger happy. What makes me think he is a moron is that his grammatical and linguistical skills aren't exactly... satisfactory. If I was American anyway I'd be considered a liberal. I'm left wing, yeah, I admit it. Oh why is the American president called the Leader of the Free World? He's only the leader of America...

Ok then, so I didn't really support the Iraq war, because I'm basically a pacifist. I didn't go out and protest in London like the million other people. What really pissed me off was Bush's state visit to Britain. So much money was spent on protecting him with the police pulled from all over the country to go to London to protect one guy. During the time he was here, with the reduction of law-enforcers, crime went way up where I live and in cities around here and all over Britain. :mad:

Criticism isn't directed at America specifically, and it has nothing at all to do with jealousy, that's just what Americans tend to think, that all us foreigners are jealous of America, which we aren't really. It's mostly just your foreign policies which piss people off, and the way your government deals with people who don't support America.

The one thing that made me truly disappointed in America was the way a lot of people acted towards France after they didn't supoprt the Iraq war. Declaring themselves anti-French and conducting boycotting just because France didn't jump up and go "YESSIR MR PRESIDENT!" and go off to fight the war. Now there is not much love between the French and the British, but most people here when the American anti-French boycott was on, most people supported France and hardly a bad word was said about them. Their "respectablity" went way up. I love France by the way, I think the people are great. The stereotypes directed at them are all false. No they do not all eat garlic or wear stripy clothes or have weird moustaches or smell. All the French people I have met have been lovely people. Not deserving of the image they have in foreign countries. Jsut because some country protests against something American doesn't mean they're anti-American. At least half of the British was against the Iraq war but that was just the war. We still like America!

The image America gets is also undeserved. Yes, we know you're not all fat trigger-happy junkfood-addicts. You have a lot of support here in Britain, which is why we are also a prime terrorist target for helping you. For helping you we have endangered ourselves badly. So we've stopped some bombs in Heathrow airport even... but we still love you! *hugs Americans*

Just get rid of your president ok? And McDonalds. Wow that "food" is bad... ;)

amy la calabazita

If you’re such a leading country how could your highest officials get the fault information on which depends such important decision whether to send troops in Iraq or not?

Yeah, don’t you think that such a threat about a seizure of three planes should be seriously considered at first place? As I can recall Bush’s got warnings several time. Please don’t justify such government mistake.

Yes but the result/consequences are absolutely different. Every one only now understands what a great threat Chechnya is but your actions toward Iraq are still doubtful.

During this time, we’ve caught and condemned so many rebels from Chechnya that if they were free terracts would increase three times. Or what actions are you talking about? Why haven’t we used our nuclear weapons to wipe Chechnya off the face of the earth?

We don’t need any scenarios we have concrete examples here.

Ok I understood one thing it’s nonsense for me to write some more arguments here, ‘cause almost all of you completely sure that whatever America do or done is or was unexampled right. And this fact defy any discussions. Whether we’re talking about war or peace America was, is and will be the hub of the universe. The question is what was the point of creation of this thread? Nobody of you even listen to a small amount of our foreign opinions, but find a justification to every US action by turning it into “yes we did that ‘cause that was very right”. As I said Americans here writing about America.

You know Scratchy. . I'm going to try REALLY hard to be civil and fair about answering this .. then I want you to THINK about every point I make. .okay??? Just stop attacking for long enough to THINK.

First off, Information from a variety of sources, including the Agencies from FRANCE, and England, was used in making up the total picture about what Saddam was doing in Iraq. It went back some 15 YEARS .. not just yesterday, in showing a pattern of actions, and tendencies, and attempts by Saddam to acquire Nuclear Weapons, Chemical Weapons, Biological Weapons, and also showed his willingness and HELP with terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah and the PLO. He also had stockpiles in place, after the 1991 war, that he was supposed to destroy. He also USED some of those stockpiles on his own people in 1992 and 1993 showing that he did not destroy them but stillhad them. He failed to show, in any way, that he had ever destroyed a single vial of chemicals. . and his agents were actively trying to acquire low-grade nuclear materials that could be enriched. . also the machines to refine those materials were being sought, and purchased from both France and Germany (in violation of UN mandates). Look at all that .. it's pretty clear he had the weapons in 1993. . and could not prove they were gone .. . so he had them. . .best guess is that they are in Syria or Jordan right now. . since they could have been moved on 8-10 large trucks very easily.

Your second point, about planes. . . .there was no SPECIFIC threat about airlinesrs. . only passing reference. . and no dates, times, or other information available to act upon. I could bomb the Kremlin tomorrow. . and you could never stop me. . if I wished to keep it secret enough. What would Vladimir Putin do about it? not much. Also, if you recall, back in 1985 a young German man flew a CESSNA completely through Soviet airspace, against the greatest Anti-Aircraft defense system in the world, and landed in Red Square. ..they could not find his plane and never saw him visualy till he landed. Air attacks against a heavily defended target are also impossible to stop . .do you REALLY think we could have stopped 9-11 with NO information to help us? Please. . . . .you are not being realistic.

Third. . you actions in Chechnya are ILLEGAL. . you have slaughtered 10's of thousands of CIVILIANS in a country that is NOT YOURS. Please do not preach to the US about invading Iraq until EVERY Russian troop is withdrawn from Chechnya. YOUR actions in that country caused the terrorists to attack YOU. When you pull out of Chechnya, and then REBUILD it with trillions of Rubles, come tell us how to handle Iraq. . in the meantime YOUR occupation of Chechnya is illegal.

Its very amusing that YOU, a Russian, given Russia's long history of wars and slaughtering millions of it's own people, and invading Czechoslovakia, Poland, Afghanistan, and holding Georgia, Poland, Byeloruss, and about 8 other discrete countries under YOUR slavish dominance for 70 years, would DARE to try to tell the US how to do things.

I want to PERSONALLY thank the RUSSIAN people for allowing their government to invade Afghanistan in 1980 . That invasion led to the ascent of Osama Bin Laden, it ripped that part of the world to shreds, allowed the Taliban to come to power, fed Islamic extremism by helping it focus on Russia as "THE Great Satan" (greater than the US). . and now. . once again . . the United States has to go in where the Russians screwed things up. .and FIX IT. . AGAIN. . We fixed Egypt .. we fixed Nicaragua and the rest of Central America, we fixed Grenada, Germany, and now Afghanistan. . . Everything the Russians touch gets ruined. . . . maybe it's time to just nuke your aging and unusable nuclear arsenal to hell and back. . What're you gonna do about it?

Everything the Russians touch gets ruined. . . . maybe it's time to just nuke your aging and unusable nuclear arsenal to hell and back. . What're you gonna do about it?

Whereas everyplace the US goes turns into an idyllic paradise of light and honey right? Please. I think the lesson is ANYtime ANY country goes ANYwhere, things get fucked up.

Maybe you're right though, maybe we should just blow up the world and start over.

Whereas everyplace the US goes turns into an idyllic paradise of light and honey right? Please. I think the lesson is ANYtime ANY country goes ANYwhere, things get fucked up.

Maybe you're right though, maybe we should just blow up the world and start over.

Normally I'd agree with your point, Sheep. . but History has shown that the majority of countries America has had "Ventures" in have become for the most part economically stable and peaceful places. I'll cite Japan, S. Korea, Germany, Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, and the burgeoning democracies of Afghanistan and, yes, Iraq, as examples, thought he last two still have a long way to go but are showing promise. On the other hand, any country that has fallen under repressive influence from the USSR/Russia has been turned on it's head, it's economy ruined, it's people slaughtered or crushed, and has taken decades to recover form it.

I'm certainly not saying that the US is a pristine Angel. . but compared to the atrocity laden past of the USSR/Russian political sphere, it almost seems utopian .. I'd wonder. . . can ANYONE show me a country that was aligned with Russia in the last 80 years, that was NOT damaged by their policies and has succeeded without US intervention? I certainly cannot think of one (Vietnam is an example of Chinese intervention, as is N. Korea. . not strictly Russian)

My understanding of America's history in Iraq is this;

The CIA assisted the Ba'ath party overthrow of General Abdel Karim Kassem (who overthrew the pro-West monarchy in 1958 in a coup) in 1963. Kassem had been tolerated earlier because he was seen as a counter to Egypt's Abel Nasser, but his domestic policies of 1963 were not tolerated. These included nationalising foreign oil companies and withdrawing from the US Baghdad Pact.

The Ba'ath Party was assisted by the CIA in arms and organisation of the resistance, including providing lists of "suspected leftists" to the Ba'ath Party, who them proceeded to murder the people on those lists. Western businesses took an interest in Iraq after the takeover.

However, the Ba'ath party was toppled two years later, and Saddam Hussein, a member of the Regional Command of the Ba'ath Party and a brutal interrogator, was imprisoned by the new regime, although he escaped after a few years. Apparently Hussein was a regular at the American embassy and CIA station during 1963.

In 1968, yet another coup, backed by the CIA again, occured under Ba'athist General Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr, who appointed his cousin Saddam Hussein as second in command; Secretary General of the Ba'ath Party. He set up the secret internal party and police network Jihaz Haneen, which enabled him to build up his power and influence. Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr resigned in 1979, officially because of "health problems", and Saddam gained power that year.

I'm sure that some people would have seen the infamous video of Saddam reading out the list of names at a Ba'athist party assembly and the men leaving the hall and never being seen again. That list was provided by the CIA if I remember correctly. The head of the labour unions, a leading Shiite member of the Revolutionary Command Council and other high ranking officials were mrudered by Saddam. Other military leaders and people alleged to be enemies of the Party were also executed shortly afterwards.

The rest, including the Iran-Iraq war, the massacre of the Kurds and torture and imprisonment of Iraqis, Rumsfeld meeting with Saddam (again, this was video-taped) and so on I think we're all aware of.

Normally I'd agree with your point, Sheep. . but History has shown that the majority of countries America has had "Ventures" in have become for the most part economically stable and peaceful places. I'll cite Japan, S. Korea, Germany, Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, and the burgeoning democracies of Afghanistan and, yes, Iraq, as examples, thought he last two still have a long way to go but are showing promise.

Liberia? Haiti? Lebanon? Colombia? We fucked around in Chile's government, basically installed Pinochet and look how he turned out. We propped up Saddam Hussein in Iraq when we were more concerned about Iran and look how HE turned out. We fucked around in American Indian territory (when it still belonged to them) and they didn't exactly come out smelling like roses either.

Panama has an unemployment rate of near 15% and over a third of its population lives below the poverty line. Grenada has a bunch of tax-loophole overseas banks (before Hurricane Ivan anyway :)) but a third of its population lives in poverty also, and unemployment is around 12%. Fully HALF of the population of Nicaragua lives under the poverty line and unemployment is well over 20%. Peaceful, maybe, but these are not "economically stable" countries, unless you mean stable in their economic shittyness. Then again these countries weren't exactly economic powerhouses before we got there either.

We did a fine job in Japan and Germany but they already had infrastructure in place and were already successful countries before we bombed the crap out of them in WWII (not making any value judgment on that). We basically just helped them rebuild what they already had. Which was very good of us, yes.

And Afghanistan and Iraq... how exactly are either of these places economically stable OR peaceful? You can't cite them as examples because you think one day they might be.

Basically what I'm saying is, we have a long history of fucking other places up when we take an active interfering role, and when have we ever invaded somewhere and actually improved it, made it a powerful, successful, self-sufficient nation? South Korea is the only one I can think of. And I'm not saying we are as bad as the Soviets were. Just that "bad" is still bad, even though it's not as bad as "worse". We do a LOT better helping countries build themselves up rather than doing it for them, seems like.

First off, Information from a variety of sources, including the Agencies from FRANCE, and England, was used in making up the total picture about what Saddam was doing in Iraq. It went back some 15 YEARS .. not just yesterday, in showing a pattern of actions, and tendencies, and attempts by Saddam to acquire Nuclear Weapons, Chemical Weapons, Biological Weapons, and also showed his willingness and HELP with terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah and the PLO. He also had stockpiles in place, after the 1991 war, that he was supposed to destroy. He also USED some of those stockpiles on his own people in 1992 and 1993 showing that he did not destroy them but stillhad them. He failed to show, in any way, that he had ever destroyed a single vial of chemicals. . and his agents were actively trying to acquire low-grade nuclear materials that could be enriched. . also the machines to refine those materials were being sought, and purchased from both France and Germany (in violation of UN mandates). Look at all that .. it's pretty clear he had the weapons in 1993. . and could not prove they were gone .. . so he had them. . .best guess is that they are in Syria or Jordan right now. . since they could have been moved on 8-10 large trucks very easily.

Your second point, about planes. . . .there was no SPECIFIC threat about airlinesrs. . only passing reference. . and no dates, times, or other information available to act upon. I could bomb the Kremlin tomorrow. . and you could never stop me. . if I wished to keep it secret enough. What would Vladimir Putin do about it? not much. Also, if you recall, back in 1985 a young German man flew a CESSNA completely through Soviet airspace, against the greatest Anti-Aircraft defense system in the world, and landed in Red Square. ..they could not find his plane and never saw him visualy till he landed. Air attacks against a heavily defended target are also impossible to stop . .do you REALLY think we could have stopped 9-11 with NO information to help us? Please. . . . .you are not being realistic.

Third. . you actions in Chechnya are ILLEGAL. . you have slaughtered 10's of thousands of CIVILIANS in a country that is NOT YOURS. Please do not preach to the US about invading Iraq until EVERY Russian troop is withdrawn from Chechnya. YOUR actions in that country caused the terrorists to attack YOU. When you pull out of Chechnya, and then REBUILD it with trillions of Rubles, come tell us how to handle Iraq. . in the meantime YOUR occupation of Chechnya is illegal.

Its very amusing that YOU, a Russian, given Russia's long history of wars and slaughtering millions of it's own people, and invading Czechoslovakia, Poland, Afghanistan, and holding Georgia, Poland, Byeloruss, and about 8 other discrete countries under YOUR slavish dominance for 70 years, would DARE to try to tell the US how to do things.

I want to PERSONALLY thank the RUSSIAN people for allowing their government to invade Afghanistan in 1980 . That invasion led to the ascent of Osama Bin Laden, it ripped that part of the world to shreds, allowed the Taliban to come to power, fed Islamic extremism by helping it focus on Russia as "THE Great Satan" (greater than the US). . and now. . once again . . the United States has to go in where the Russians screwed things up. .and FIX IT. . AGAIN. . We fixed Egypt .. we fixed Nicaragua and the rest of Central America, we fixed Grenada, Germany, and now Afghanistan. . . Everything the Russians touch gets ruined. . . . maybe it's time to just nuke your aging and unusable nuclear arsenal to hell and back. . What're you gonna do about it?

You call yourself the world leader, but you're not a leader, you just want/pretend to be the leader in everything. Other countries just trying to settle their internal problems/business but US always poke it's nose in their business. Whether there's any need or not.
You brought a lot of countries into the war in Vietnam thinking you would conquer it but as a result of that you had a crisis in your own country, you were condemned by many other countries and didn't reach a goal you'd settled. The same now in Iraq. This war if far from ending.
In the end of 70th and in the beginning of 80th you openly started to interfere in internal business of other countries and to infringe national independence and sovereignty. The objects of your bareness interference were Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Grenada and so on... It seems to me that you won't calm down until you conquer all such countries under some ridiculous pretence.
You do nothing for no particular reason you just want to get greater advantages of all your actions no matter where these actions are directed into the war or peace.

First off, Information from a variety of sources, including the Agencies from FRANCE, and England, was used in making up the total picture about what Saddam was doing in Iraq. It went back some 15 YEARS .. not just yesterday, in showing a pattern of actions, and tendencies, and attempts by Saddam to acquire Nuclear Weapons, Chemical Weapons, Biological Weapons, and also showed his willingness and HELP with terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah and the PLO. He also had stockpiles in place, after the 1991 war, that he was supposed to destroy. He also USED some of those stockpiles on his own people in 1992 and 1993 showing that he did not destroy them but stillhad them. He failed to show, in any way, that he had ever destroyed a single vial of chemicals. . and his agents were actively trying to acquire low-grade nuclear materials that could be enriched. . also the machines to refine those materials were being sought, and purchased from both France and Germany (in violation of UN mandates). Look at all that .. it's pretty clear he had the weapons in 1993. . and could not prove they were gone .. . so he had them. . .best guess is that they are in Syria or Jordan right now. . since they could have been moved on 8-10 large trucks very easily.

Your second point, about planes. . . .there was no SPECIFIC threat about airlinesrs. . only passing reference. . and no dates, times, or other information available to act upon. I could bomb the Kremlin tomorrow. . and you could never stop me. . if I wished to keep it secret enough. What would Vladimir Putin do about it? not much. Also, if you recall, back in 1985 a young German man flew a CESSNA completely through Soviet airspace, against the greatest Anti-Aircraft defense system in the world, and landed in Red Square. ..they could not find his plane and never saw him visualy till he landed. Air attacks against a heavily defended target are also impossible to stop . .do you REALLY think we could have stopped 9-11 with NO information to help us? Please. . . . .you are not being realistic.

Third. . you actions in Chechnya are ILLEGAL. . you have slaughtered 10's of thousands of CIVILIANS in a country that is NOT YOURS. Please do not preach to the US about invading Iraq until EVERY Russian troop is withdrawn from Chechnya. YOUR actions in that country caused the terrorists to attack YOU. When you pull out of Chechnya, and then REBUILD it with trillions of Rubles, come tell us how to handle Iraq. . in the meantime YOUR occupation of Chechnya is illegal.

Its very amusing that YOU, a Russian, given Russia's long history of wars and slaughtering millions of it's own people, and invading Czechoslovakia, Poland, Afghanistan, and holding Georgia, Poland, Byeloruss, and about 8 other discrete countries under YOUR slavish dominance for 70 years, would DARE to try to tell the US how to do things.

I want to PERSONALLY thank the RUSSIAN people for allowing their government to invade Afghanistan in 1980 . That invasion led to the ascent of Osama Bin Laden, it ripped that part of the world to shreds, allowed the Taliban to come to power, fed Islamic extremism by helping it focus on Russia as "THE Great Satan" (greater than the US). . and now. . once again . . the United States has to go in where the Russians screwed things up. .and FIX IT. . AGAIN. . We fixed Egypt .. we fixed Nicaragua and the rest of Central America, we fixed Grenada, Germany, and now Afghanistan. . . Everything the Russians touch gets ruined. . . . maybe it's time to just nuke your aging and unusable nuclear arsenal to hell and back. . What're you gonna do about it?
You call yourself the world leader, but you're not a leader, you just want to be the leader in everything. Other countries just trying to settle their internal problems/business but US always poke your nose in their business. Even when they don't ask for that.
You brought a lot of countries into the war in Vietnam thinking you would conquer it but as a result of that you had a crisis in your own country, you were condemned by many other countries and didn't reach a goal you'd settled. The same now in Iraq. This war if far from ending.
In the end of 70th and in the beginning of 80th you openly started to interfere in internal business of other countries and to infringe national independence and sovereignty. The objects of your bareness interference were Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Grenada and so on... It seems to me that you won't calm down until you conquer all such countries under some ridiculous pretence.
You do nothing for any particular reasons you just want to get greater advantages from your actions no matter where you direct them into the war of peace.

Liberia? Haiti? Lebanon? Colombia? We fucked around in Chile's government, basically installed Pinochet and look how he turned out. We propped up Saddam Hussein in Iraq when we were more concerned about Iran and look how HE turned out. We fucked around in American Indian territory (when it still belonged to them) and they didn't exactly come out smelling like roses either.

Panama has an unemployment rate of near 15% and over a third of its population lives below the poverty line. Grenada has a bunch of tax-loophole overseas banks (before Hurricane Ivan anyway :)) but a third of its population lives in poverty also, and unemployment is around 12%. Fully HALF of the population of Nicaragua lives under the poverty line and unemployment is well over 20%. Peaceful, maybe, but these are not "economically stable" countries, unless you mean stable in their economic shittyness. Then again these countries weren't exactly economic powerhouses before we got there either.

We did a fine job in Japan and Germany but they already had infrastructure in place and were already successful countries before we bombed the crap out of them in WWII (not making any value judgment on that). We basically just helped them rebuild what they already had. Which was very good of us, yes.

And Afghanistan and Iraq... how exactly are either of these places economically stable OR peaceful? You can't cite them as examples because you think one day they might be.

Basically what I'm saying is, we have a long history of fucking other places up when we take an active interfering role, and when have we ever invaded somewhere and actually improved it, made it a powerful, successful, self-sufficient nation? South Korea is the only one I can think of. And I'm not saying we are as bad as the Soviets were. Just that "bad" is still bad, even though it's not as bad as "worse". We do a LOT better helping countries build themselves up rather than doing it for them, seems like.
Hey Kris^ listen to this guy 'cause he seems to know history better in his 23 than you in your 46

You call yourself the world leader, but you're not a leader, you just want/pretend to be the leader in everything. Other countries just trying to settle their internal problems/business but US always poke it's nose in their business. Whether there's any need or not.
You brought a lot of countries into the war in Vietnam thinking you would conquer it but as a result of that you had a crisis in your own country, you were condemned by many other countries and didn't reach a goal you'd settled. The same now in Iraq. This war if far from ending.
In the end of 70th and in the beginning of 80th you openly started to interfere in internal business of other countries and to infringe national independence and sovereignty. The objects of your bareness interference were Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Grenada and so on... It seems to me that you won't calm down until you conquer all such countries under some ridiculous pretence.
You do nothing for no particular reason you just want to get greater advantages of all your actions no matter where these actions are directed into the war or peace.

And then? I am trying to find any facts in your statement other than vague obscurity, and my brain is starting to hurt.

We do a LOT better helping countries build themselves up rather than doing it for them, seems like.
We don't often agree, but I agree with you on this point and all the ones you made in your previous post. It seems as though when the country WANTS our help thrives, while the one that rebels is the venture that fails. I really hope that Iraq is successful, but my gut says it won't be.

EDIT: Oh, and Scratchy...You just ignored the last post I made! I feel so sad :(

And then? I am trying to find any facts in your statement other than vague obscurity, and my brain is starting to hurt.

Well they are 17 and are starting to learn what opinions are, but no one ever taught them how to back up what they say.

So... what do you expect :p

And then? I am trying to find any facts in your statement other than vague obscurity, and my brain is starting to hurt.
Hey I don't understand what facts are you talking about? Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Grenada? You can read about them in every history textbook.

Hey I don't understand what facts are you talking about? Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Grenada? You can read about them in every history textbook.

You took one sentence with capital letters in some of the words from that whole paragraph of bullshit and you think that constitutes "facts?"

Liberia? Haiti? Lebanon? Colombia? We fucked around in Chile's government, basically installed Pinochet and look how he turned out. We propped up Saddam Hussein in Iraq when we were more concerned about Iran and look how HE turned out. We fucked around in American Indian territory (when it still belonged to them) and they didn't exactly come out smelling like roses either.

Panama has an unemployment rate of near 15% and over a third of its population lives below the poverty line. Grenada has a bunch of tax-loophole overseas banks (before Hurricane Ivan anyway :)) but a third of its population lives in poverty also, and unemployment is around 12%. Fully HALF of the population of Nicaragua lives under the poverty line and unemployment is well over 20%. Peaceful, maybe, but these are not "economically stable" countries, unless you mean stable in their economic shittyness. Then again these countries weren't exactly economic powerhouses before we got there either.

We did a fine job in Japan and Germany but they already had infrastructure in place and were already successful countries before we bombed the crap out of them in WWII (not making any value judgment on that). We basically just helped them rebuild what they already had. Which was very good of us, yes.

And Afghanistan and Iraq... how exactly are either of these places economically stable OR peaceful? You can't cite them as examples because you think one day they might be.

Basically what I'm saying is, we have a long history of fucking other places up when we take an active interfering role, and when have we ever invaded somewhere and actually improved it, made it a powerful, successful, self-sufficient nation? South Korea is the only one I can think of. And I'm not saying we are as bad as the Soviets were. Just that "bad" is still bad, even though it's not as bad as "worse". We do a LOT better helping countries build themselves up rather than doing it for them, seems like.


Man you guys are HILARIOUS . .where to start?

Okay., .Iraq . .things were going pretty well until Saddam came to power. .and the Ayatollahs overthrew the Shah of Iran (with covert Soviet backing) at the same time the USSR set up to invade Afghanistan and try to put the lower Asian continent under their control. With Iran neutralized as a US Ally, and India/Pakistan afraid of the USSR. . it was pretty much impossible to straighten things out without helping Saddam, who was not then quite the Tyrant he became. I don't suppose you people remember how NICE it was to live in Iran before the Ayatollahs took over, do you? (I visited once. . it was different, butnice) I guess not (Again. . thank you the USSR). . the Entire lower Asian/Pesian destabilization can be traced to the fomentation of Islamic fundamentalism in Iran, and the efforts of the USSR to acquire control in that area, and the aftermath of those efforts which started as early as 1975-7 (THANK YOU JIMMY CARTER)

What we are looking at, currently, is a still destabilized area thanks almost entirely to the USSR. You can't look at this in a 5-10 year period. . you have to look at it in a generational scope of things, because that is the timelines involved . .so .. we kicked the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Terrorists are on the run, Iran is about to have a really bad upheaval AGAINST the Ayatollahs, Saddam is now gone, and we are basially back where we were some 30 years ago . . .and it's taken almost 20 years of effort and a couple of wars to get to this point. .Again . .Thank You USSR. Since it is now in RUSSIA's best interest to allow the stabilization of the countries along their Southern border, they will be more than happy to allow this to continue, since they have to focus on slaughtering Chechnyans.

Remember, Russia openly sided with Saddam up until the time of our invasion, as did China and France and Germany. . .the weapons being shipped into that country from those four benefactors was tremendous (kalashnikovs, missile parts, fuel for missiles, AA systems, a LOT of Russian NBC gear, and other items), and how much you wanna bet a lot of the funding for the current "insurgency" has roots in those four countries?

So, I'm sorry, our effors in that area, to stabilize the region some 30-40 years ago were directly countered by Soviet expansionism, which we are just now being able to finally repair to some extent.

Next . .lets see. . ORGI. . .

Bullshit. .you are making no sense. . If the USSR had not tried to intervene in any of those places, they would probably be 25-30 years ahead of their current situation . .Again. . thank you for destroying a lot of nice places. You stuck your money and influence into perfectly nice places, and ruined them. . .and new they are slowly recovering. .with OUR help.

Sheep. . .Panama. . 15% unemployment is LOW for that country. . stop playing like they have the US economy. . what you want us to do. .hire them ALL . .we left when the Canal was turned over to them . .now it's THEIR problem what is done with their country and NOT our fault they can't hold it together. As for Noriega, he was being paid off by the Russians (is there a pattern here), importing drugs to the US, and killing a lot of people. . What was the unemployment picture like THEN??? Also, please define "Poverty" This is starting to sound like a Democratic Kerry commercial where a lot of bs is thrown around with no actual numbers. . AND. . again. . how many lived in poverty BEFORE Cuba tried to build a Soviet Airbase in Grenada that would have housed 30-40 Soviet Nuclear Bombers as well as a few discrete short range missile launchers??? The current economy of Grenada is far better than 20years ago . .and as for being a money/banking place. . well. . GOOD .. Trickle Down economics is on the way :)

The infrastructures of Japan and Germany were GONE after WW2, and their governments did not exist. . we totaly rebuilt them from the bottom up, including setting up a Democracy in Japan (instead of Feudal Autocracy), and went as far as to PROTECT Germany for some 45 years until the fall of the USSR .. I guess you don't remember the Berlin Airlift, or the BILLIONS in Aid to Germany we sent every year. . .for 45 YEARS


So, there are a few countries that still need work .. but hey, now that the USSR is GONE, and China is busy with their business. . maybe things can get straightened out .. or. .maybe we should just quit trying, and watch he entire 3rd world just disintegrate. . Kinda funny how the US is sending all this aid and help to Africa, yet Russia has not raised a hand, and neither has China. . or France. . . or Germany. . .or it's a pittance compared to what WE are doing. .. kinda funny there if you ask me.

If the Bolsheviks had lost. . Hitler would not have been so keen on destroying the monster he saw in the USSR .. WW2 might have been a lot different, if it occured at all. . . If Lenin had died in his 20's, The USSR would never have been. .and the last 80 years would have been tremendously different, and probably a LOT more peaceful. Every time someone needs help, whom do they call? The United States or Great Britain. .. Not Russia. .Not China. . very seldom France, Germany, Spain or Italy. . .kinda shows what its really all about.

You took one sentence with capital letters in some of the words from that whole paragraph of bullshit and you think that constitutes "facts?"
I didn't mean to say that we misunderstood each other.

I just hate your president, who is in fact a moron...

I don't know anything about his policies...

What makes me think he is a moron is that his grammatical and linguistical skills aren't exactly... satisfactory.

He is in FACT a moron? Or is than an opinion? If it is an opinion, is it based on the fact (<--you said it, not me--->) that you know nothing about his policies?

Is overall intelligence directly and proportionately related to grammatical composition ability? I bet you that if I called a dyslexic person, or one with a stuttering problem, etc a moron because of it that I'd get blasted with all kinds of hateful speech about how wrong, insensitive, and politically incorrect that was. How that poor person couldn't help it and how mean it was to make a judgement about their intelligence and potential like that based on their one hangup. All these people who are saying Bush is an idiot based on that attribute alone must really be pawing at thin air to come up with a reason to hate him.

And Phoenix Fires, I'm just having a little fun at your expense... don't take it too personally. :)

What? When???


I don't necessarily care what other countries think, but it might be a good idea to not totally alienate them considering that we are eventually going to need their help, just based on sheer numbers. We already had to pull crucial troops out of Afghanistan for our little adventure in Iraq... what, are we gonna wait 5-6 years until Iraq sorts itself out and then move on to the next country? The war on terror is going to come to a screeching halt if we don't take other nations' concerns into consideration... we just won't have enough bodies if we do it all by ourselves!!

As for "just wait til <insert country here> has a terrorist attack"... yeah, that's funny considering France was a target for terrorism before we even knew what terrorism was. And Mexico has been fighting a civil war in Chiapas for as long as I can remember so it's not like they are terror virgins either. It's the United States that is the new kid on the block when it comes to terrorism. Canada will never have a terrorist attack for the same reason Iceland will never have a terrorist attack... nobody gives a rat's ass about Canada. Also, look at Spain, they had a major terror attack and I don't see Paco on the block in Barcelona kissing our feet yet... so, uh... when's that gonna start?

Let me clarify...I had said Muslim extremists...I was not refering to your average Muslim follower...I am talking about the terrorists who in the name of Allah do what they do.

Part of the reason, a reason that has been forgotten and warped in so many different ways is that Islam used to be the dominant religion in the world and Christianity usurped that.

And somewhere along the line there was resentment and that resentment has been passed down through the generations. Its a common thing, in all religions. Your great grandfather hated a certain religion and told your grandfather to hate them too, your grandfather told your father, to the point that alot of the radicals dont know why they hate us, they just know they are supposed to.

If the Bolsheviks had lost. . Hitler would not have been so keen on destroying the monster he saw in the USSR .. WW2 might have been a lot different, if it occured at all. . . If Lenin had died in his 20's, The USSR would never have been. .and the last 80 years would have been tremendously different, and probably a LOT more peaceful. Every time someone needs help, whom do they call? The United States or Great Britain. .. Not Russia. .Not China. . very seldom France, Germany, Spain or Italy. . .kinda shows what its really all about.

To be a patriot is very good but your patriotism kinda bordered with unhealthy fanaticism. Don’t even get me started ‘cause I don’t have any desire to dig in your country’s history. Everyone knows that US did in the past a lot of shit too. Don’t deny that. Stop blaming USSR for all the bad things that happened in the World. You want everyone to think how good US is and how bad USSR was or how bad Russia is. Go ahead, that’s your right.
If America is so almighty, ok go change the World. You want to climb the ladder all the way to the top then I can't wait `til you fall off and land on your ass.
If you don’t change your international policy this time will come very quickly.

He is in FACT a moron? Or is than an opinion? If it is an opinion, is it based on the fact (<--you said it, not me--->) that you know nothing about his policies?

Is overall intelligence directly and proportionately related to grammatical composition ability? I bet you that if I called a dyslexic person, or one with a stuttering problem, etc a moron because of it that I'd get blasted with all kinds of hateful speech about how wrong, insensitive, and politically incorrect that was. How that poor person couldn't help it and how mean it was to make a judgement about their intelligence and potential like that based on their one hangup. All these people who are saying Bush is an idiot based on that attribute alone must really be pawing at thin air to come up with a reason to hate him.

And Phoenix Fires, I'm just having a little fun at your expense... don't take it too personally. :)

Main Entry: mo·ron
Pronunciation: 'mor-"än
Function: noun
Etymology: irregular from Greek mOros foolish, stupid
1 usually offensive : a mildly mentally retarded person
2 : a very stupid person

Phoenix Fires I believe you owe Mr. Bush an apology .. . so far he has outsmarted EVERY Democrat in this country. . .. .that either makes him very smart, or THEM low-grade morons. .take your pick.

Now Scratchy . .I just want to know. . do you have ANY references in your schools concerning Stalins Purges or the number of people who died in WW2 because of their own leaders?? Try 30-60 MILLION Soviet Citizens. . butcherd by Stalins thugs. . Have you ever seen a Gulag? Do you remember the Berlin Wall, Glasnost, Perestroika, The Cold War or the Czech invasion of 1968? This is YOUR country's own history . .do you deny it?

How about the slaughter of 125,000 German soldiers AFTER they surrendered at Stalingrad?. . less than 20,000 survived to return home .. how about the Invasion of Poland, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the tens of thousand who perished in the Gulags and Concentration camps that existed as late as the 1980's, not to mention the thousands shot while trying to flee their own country.

You have NO place telling the United States how to do ANYTHING. .go mourn your dead, your twisted History, your example to the world of what truly brutal tyranny is.

We don't need you telling us how to do it. . you've already been the perfect example of how NOT to do it.

Do you remember the Berlin Wall, Glasnost, Perestroika, The Cold War or the Czech invasion of 1968?
Glasnost and Perestroika were initiatives introduced by Gorbachev to make Russia more open and friendly to the West. They were Good Things.

But of course you knew that, right? :rolleyes:

You have NO place telling the United States how to do ANYTHING. .go mourn your dead, your twisted History, your example to the world of what truly brutal tyranny is.

Uh huh... Say that in front of a descendent of the Sioux.

You self righteous asshole.

Now Scratchy . .I just want to know. . do you have ANY references in your schools concerning Stalins Purges or the number of people who died in WW2 because of their own leaders?? Try 30-60 MILLION Soviet Citizens. . butcherd by Stalins thugs. . Have you ever seen a Gulag? Do you remember the Berlin Wall, Glasnost, Perestroika, The Cold War or the Czech invasion of 1968? This is YOUR country's own history . .do you deny it?

How about the slaughter of 125,000 German soldiers AFTER they surrendered at Stalingrad?. . less than 20,000 survived to return home .. how about the Invasion of Poland, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the tens of thousand who perished in the Gulags and Concentration camps that existed as late as the 1980's, not to mention the thousands shot while trying to flee their own country.

You have NO place telling the United States how to do ANYTHING. .go mourn your dead, your twisted History, your example to the world of what truly brutal tyranny is.

We don't need you telling us how to do it. . you've already been the perfect example of how NOT to do it.

I don't need you Kris^ to tell ME about the history of MY country. If you think that because of my age I know very little of it you're seriously mistaken. Think more about the history of yours! And please don't even touch WWII topic and especially don't touch the numbers of casualties. Why don't I hear the numbers of slaughters in Vietnam or in desert storm operation. You don't respect the history of other countries. Don't you ever think that you might have had quite different life now if Russia hadn't taken part in WWII? How far Hitler might have gone? If not, think now instead of writing down offences.
Do you remember the Berlin Wall, Glasnost, Perestroika, The Cold War or the Czech invasion of 1968? I don't think that you're good in history that's inexcusable for a man your age. You self righteous asshole.

I don't need you Kris^ to tell ME about the history of MY country. If you think that because of my age I know very little of it you're seriously mistaken. Think more about the history of yours! And please don't even touch WWII topic and especially don't touch the numbers of casualties. Why don't I hear the numbers of slaughters in Vietnam or in desert storm operation. You don't respect the history of other countries. Don't you ever think that you might have had quite different life now if Russia hadn't taken part in WWII? How far Hitler might have gone? If not, think now instead of writing down offences.
I don't think that you're good in history that's inexcusable for a man your age.


On the Contrary!!! Scratchy. .

KNOW YOUR ENEMY!!!! I studied the USSR for YEARS . .. your battle tactics, your politics, your history in this century AND the last. . I know you much better than you will believe.

Why no numbers of slaughters in Vietnam??? Or Desert Storm? The US lost 57,000 men in Vietnam. . in Desert Storm about 360. . As for the Enemy? It's WAR. . ask THEM. You forget. .Hitler and Stalin made an agreement to Invade Poland and split it up . .Hitler was going EAST all the time.. his records show that, but he had to neutralize England and France before he could do that .. and THEY would not support a war against Communist Russia .. If Hitler could have neutralized France and England and the US. . he'd have done it .. because his true enemy was the USSR the entire time.

After the invasion of Poland. . who killed the majority of the Polish intelligentsia and Military Officers? Stalin. .NOT Hitler.

Your history is waist deep in the blood of your own people, Scratchy . .do not attempt to dictate to America until you have removed the stain of your own blood.

Hey HEAD. . did you know that I am 1/8 Cherokee??? The Sioux were my ancestors enemy. Also, I was offering Glasnost and Perestroika as items Scratchy could use in his favor. . he seems to have failed to do that. . .

Now who's the self righteous asshole. . . . Head?

Part of the reason, a reason that has been forgotten and warped in so many different ways is that Islam used to be the dominant religion in the world and Christianity usurped that.

That's what I'm asking? When was Islam EVER more dominant than Christianity?

Actually, if anybody is going to be going on a US self-righteous crusade, I think that the handling of the US colonists and early government vs. the natives needs to be brought to attention. To date, I can't find anything in US history more downright genocidal and brutal than the treatment ofnative americans from roughly 1814 to 1887.

Actually, if anybody is going to be going on a US self-righteous crusade, I think that the handling of the US colonists and early government vs. the natives needs to be brought to attention. To date, I can't find anything in US history more downright genocidal and brutal than the treatment ofnative americans from roughly 1814 to 1887.


And while we are at it let's not forget how many "Europeans" were killed by the brutal Indigenous Americans. Both sides are covered in History, with the Indians actually getting the better press these days. We Americans look HARD at our History, and I'd venture a majority of us want to know the Truth of it. . we can also add in the slaughter of Inuits by Russian Seal hunters, Mexican campaigns against the Comanche and Indians in that area of the continent, the slaughter of the Aztecs by the Spanish and Portuguese, and even French campaigns in Canada and the area of the Louisiana purchase prior to 1820. Then we could go over to China and look at THEIR internal purges in the last century, and truck on down to Africa where Genocide goes on every day. . and let's not forget Boznia-Herzogovenia. . . which the Europeans and Russians would not touch till the US made it a BIG issue (And Russia was actually on the side of the ones doing the genocide. . . . )

At least the US is trying to do something about it. . .

Part of the reason, a reason that has been forgotten and warped in so many different ways is that Islam used to be the dominant religion in the world and Christianity usurped that.

That's what I'm asking? When was Islam EVER more dominant than Christianity?

Sheep. . .Panama. . 15% unemployment is LOW for that country. . stop playing like they have the US economy. . what you want us to do. .hire them ALL . .we left when the Canal was turned over to them . .now it's THEIR problem what is done with their country and NOT our fault they can't hold it together. As for Noriega, he was being paid off by the Russians (is there a pattern here), importing drugs to the US, and killing a lot of people. . What was the unemployment picture like THEN??? Also, please define "Poverty" This is starting to sound like a Democratic Kerry commercial where a lot of bs is thrown around with no actual numbers. . AND. . again. . how many lived in poverty BEFORE Cuba tried to build a Soviet Airbase in Grenada that would have housed 30-40 Soviet Nuclear Bombers as well as a few discrete short range missile launchers??? The current economy of Grenada is far better than 20years ago . .and as for being a money/banking place. . well. . GOOD .. Trickle Down economics is on the

KRIS LISTEN TO YOUR OWN WORDS FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY.
Here, I'll quote you.

Normally I'd agree with your point, Sheep. . but History has shown that the majority of countries America has had "Ventures" in have become for the most part economically stable and peaceful places. I'll cite Japan, S. Korea, Germany, Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, and the burgeoning democracies of Afghanistan and, yes, Iraq, as examples, thought he last two still have a long way to go but are showing promise.

YOU cited Panama, Nicaragua, and Grenada as "economically stable". Do you really mean that? Not just "a little bit better than the shithole it was before, still a shithole but not quite as deep"... but "economically stable"?? If you were going to make a list of the world's "economically stable" countries, you would put Panama, Nicaragua, and Grenada on it? I'm sorry but there is not a single person who *actually* knows what they are talking about who would agree with you.

YOU cited Afghanistan and Iraq as both "economically stable" AND "peaceful". Kris. Tell me again, to my face, right here in front of everyone, that Iraq is a stable and peaceful society. Tell me that Afghanistan is a stable and peaceful society. You even say, in the very same goddamned sentence, that they "have a long way to go." SO HOW CAN YOU CITE THEM AS EXAMPLES??? If I am making a list of the best teams in the NFL, and I say "well the 49ers are up there because although they totally suck right now, if their young talent blossoms and they have a few good drafts and they get out of salary cap hell, they might be able to put a playoff team on the field in a few years" would you take me seriously?

As far as the poverty figures, those aren't numbers I'm making up. Those are figures I got from the CIA Factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/) (the CIA, Kris!!!). They show the percentage of the population living below the "poverty line" currently recognized by OUR OWN GOVERNMENT.

You are living in a right-wing fantasy world, Kris. Since the Korean War have we ever, ever, ever used our military or political power inside a country and made it a good place to live? Would YOU like to be the average person living in Grenada, Nicaragua, Panama, Lebanon, Bosnia, Somalia, Haiti, El Salvador, Chile, Colombia, Venezuela, Vietnam, Pakistan, Afghanistan, or Iraq?

We aren't the only ones with a bad track record. France didn't exactly do Algeria or Southeast Asia any favors. Russia, as we all know, royally fucked up Eastern Europe, North Korea, and Central Asia (not to mention itself). China laid waste to Tibet and Xinjiang. Middle Eastern countries interfere with each other on a daily basis, and look how that is turning out for them. Britain, farther back, made a huge mess out of South Asia and most of Africa. It doesn't seem like anyone has really had much success 'nation-building'. But I wish you weren't under the illusion that somehow we really know how to fuck with other countries better than anyone else, like we are 'nation-building' experts or something.

And while we are at it let's not forget how many "Europeans" were killed by the brutal Indigenous Americans.

Not NEARLY as many Europeans were killed by Indians as vice versa. It's not even close. I might point out, Kris, that the Europeans weren't being invaded, and that at no point since the arrival of Europeans to North America can you really EVER say that Native Americans had the upper hand for more than one battle. I hope you didn't expect them to sit back and smoke peace pipes while we conquered them, forced them to move to the shittiest pieces of land we could find, and sent them warm friendly blankets infected with smallpox.

And while we are at it let's not forget how many "Europeans" were killed by the brutal Indigenous Americans. Both sides are covered in History, with the Indians actually getting the better press these days. We Americans look HARD at our History, and I'd venture a majority of us want to know the Truth of it. . we can also add in the slaughter of Inuits by Russian Seal hunters, Mexican campaigns against the Comanche and Indians in that area of the continent, the slaughter of the Aztecs by the Spanish and Portuguese, and even French campaigns in Canada and the area of the Louisiana purchase prior to 1820. Then we could go over to China and look at THEIR internal purges in the last century, and truck on down to Africa where Genocide goes on every day. . and let's not forget Boznia-Herzogovenia. . . which the Europeans and Russians would not touch till the US made it a BIG issue (And Russia was actually on the side of the ones doing the genocide. . . . )

At least the US is trying to do something about it. . .
Right, but what I'm saying is that anyone defending the US and bashing other countries on the grounds of genocide against a particular group of people is a hypocrite.

EDIT:
And while we are at it let's not forget how many "Europeans" were killed by the brutal Indigenous Americans.
Did you expect them to lay down their weapons, surrender their food, forget their homes, and move West?/Are you sane?

Is overall intelligence directly and proportionately related to grammatical composition ability? I bet you that if I called a dyslexic person, or one with a stuttering problem, etc a moron because of it that I'd get blasted with all kinds of hateful speech about how wrong, insensitive, and politically incorrect that was. How that poor person couldn't help it and how mean it was to make a judgement about their intelligence and potential like that based on their one hangup. All these people who are saying Bush is an idiot based on that attribute alone must really be pawing at thin air to come up with a reason to hate him.

And Phoenix Fires, I'm just having a little fun at your expense... don't take it too personally. :)

No problem! I don't take it personally in the slightest. Political arguements never solve things so I learned to read them with an open mind.

If he is dyslexic, I didn't know. It hasn't been reported here in the UK. If he is, I'm truly sorry and take back everything I said. I have dyslexic friends, and have nothing but respect for them. They are just the same as me only I'm not dyslexic.

Except the part about not liking him. That would stay true.

There is a poster here, I don't know if it's in America, of dumb things he had said. It makes lots of people laugh when they see it...

@Kris^, um, Democrat? That's a right-wing politician, right? I always confuse them. I won't apologise to Mr. Bush!! Meh, I'm still not a Bush fan... Conservatives never did Britain any good. Left wing policies work better here, not sure how it is in America. I wouldn't know, don't live there!

I don't think any reason could make me like Bush the same way I dislike Blair. Not on a grand scale as much as I hate Hitler or whatever (10 on a score of 1-10, the Bush/ Blair combo wouldn't hit 0.02) but oh well. There will be lots of other politicians in my lifetime...

amy la calabazita

Phoenix, I actually have no idea if Bush has any sort of speech impediment or anything like that, but I was just making a point. And it's Left/Liberal/Democrat, Right/Conservative/Republican.

Right, but what I'm saying is that anyone defending the US and bashing other countries on the grounds of genocide against a particular group of people is a hypocrite.

EDIT:
Did you expect them to lay down their weapons, surrender their food, forget their homes, and move West?/Are you sane?

I believe America is about the only country that makes reparations for those same things, El_Cid. . but recalling the history of horribly brutal governments in the last century (1901-2000), and which is still recent history, can be linked to their behaviour today. I'll also remind you that the indigenous Indians of this country were very capable with firearms (As the 7th cavalry can attest) and overall probably suffered more from diseases than actual organized attacks. No one has claimed immunity from this part of Americas History, but I (Being relatively sane) do expect that those judging the actions of this country, and it's leaders, to be able to at least acknowledge their own histories on the matter, and to have proven that their position is at least on a higher moral ground. I have yet to see that from Americas detractors. What I see, instead, is petty, jealous, and a bit of greed, and form countries that have done their best to beset the US with limitations on what is necessary for t