Just thought this would be an interesting debate. I haven't fully decided my opinion on the matter, but I'm curious to see what everyone else has to say.

Is homosexuality a trait one is born with, or is it something that is nurtured and developed in later years of a life?

I think people are born homosexual.

Would you question whether someone is heterosexual from birth? I don't think anyone has. Why would homosexuality be any different?

I think it's a combination of both. So is everything else that makes up one's personality. It puzzles me as to why some people claim the tendency is solely genetic or solely environmental.

I think the term we are looking for here is genetic propensity.

Genes probably account for a certain percentage of the variance (anywhere from <1% to 100%) in whether someone is a homosexual. This means that you can be a homosexual without those genes in place (if the other factors are present), you are just x% more likely to be homosexual if you do. If you do have the gene you could easily still be heterosexual.

Example: The gene for alcoholism accounts for ~3% of the variance in whether someone becomes an alcoholic. (Colloquially) this means that there is a slightly greater chance of you becoming an alcoholic if you have that gene, but that other factors matter ( a lot) more.

That said, I do not believe that what gender you are attracted to is a conscious choice. Even if 100% of the variance is accounted for by early childhood developmental factors, that is still "set in their programming" by the time they get anywhere with it.

I personally think you're born like that. I mean, I am gay and I have alot of friends who are too...and none of us know why. It's not like I woke up one day and said "Wow I think I'm gonna be gay for now on." It just doesn't happen like that. I also think the way the media shoves it in your face may be a factor in the increasing amount of homosexuals. Impresionable (sp?) kids are watching TV all the time and its being shoved at them 24/7. So I think it's a mix of both being born like that and it just being everywhere around you.


Note:I remember one of my friends said once it had something to do with chromosones but I dunno...my friends arn't the brightest people in the world...let me tell you...LoL.

Note:I remember one of my friends said once it had something to do with chromosones but I dunno...my friends arn't the brightest people in the world...let me tell you...LoL.No, there's not been a gay gene discovered yet. The studies that point to genetic factors have to do with the size of structures in the brain IIRC.

No, there's not been a gay gene discovered yet. The studies that point to genetic factors have to do with the size of structures in the brain IIRC.

There is also the possibility that it is a multi-gene trait, which could make finding it really interesting.

I don't think anyone can be born anything. Whether it be hetrosexual or homosexual. I think it's developed.

i'm thinking it's both ... scientists have found that certain structures of the brain (the hypothalamus? if i remember correctly) are said to either be smaller or larger in gay men and women than they are in heterosexual men and women (i forget the specifics). then also, i notice among my gay male friends that they have either a passive father figure or none at all and a dominant female figure in their early childhood to adolescence. i think it's both, neither having more effect on the gay outcome than the other. where it comes from isn't that important to me; it's just one tidbit about that person like their eye color.

I don't think anyone can be born anything. Whether it be hetrosexual or homosexual. I think it's developed.

I tend to think along the same lines.

[QUOTE=image_keeper]I don't think anyone can be born anything. Whether it be hetrosexual or homosexual. I think it's developed.[/QUOTE}

But... why?

I tend to think along the same lines.

So... what would make a common nine year old tell another nine year old he loved him, and then kiss the other boy? You think a nine year old could seriously develop enough thought as to which sex they prefer? Most kids act on pure impulse, they do what they are programmed to do. I'd say genetic. The only real studies have been covered on 20/20, and basically the doctor said the densidity of a certain part of your brain would drive you one way or the other. The reporters wrote that off because the Doctor himself was gay and wanted to say it was genetic. He wanted to prove it wasn't his choice and it was his nature.

...but then the homophobic would try and make a cure... ah shit.

I don't think anyone can be born anything. Whether it be hetrosexual or homosexual. I think it's developed.

Sigh. You mean like being blue eyed? A propensity for retinoblastoma? How about schizophrenic? Or with ALS? Or having a tendency to anger easily?

So... what would make a common nine year old tell another nine year old he loved him, and then kiss the other boy? You think a nine year old could seriously develop enough thought as to which sex they prefer? Most kids act on pure impulse, they do what they are programmed to do. I'd say genetic. The only real studies have been covered on 20/20, and basically the doctor said the densidity of a certain part of your brain would drive you one way or the other. The reporters wrote that off because the Doctor himself was gay and wanted to say it was genetic. He wanted to prove it wasn't his choice and it was his nature.

...but then the homophobic would try and make a cure... ah shit.

Interesting.

First off, kids do alot of unexplainable things. For all you know, he could have been imitating something he saw on TV (Which I've done as a kid. Numerous times...). So that would hardly qualify as an arguement for it being "genetic". One doctor offering his opinion of a plausable, genetic theory (the key word being "HIS", followed by "THEORY), does not make it law. And the fact that this was coming from a gay physician at that, makes it all the more questionable, because of course he's going to push that theory into practice.

I find the flippant use of the term "homophobic", blatently ignorant. At least 9 times out of 10 that is used. Primairly because, people couldn't be bothered examining the real meaning of the term "phobia". By Webster's definition, a "phobia", is: "An exaggerated, usually inexplicable, and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation. ". Any first year psychiatry student will tell you, people that are TRULY "phobic", go above and beyond the point of rationality, to avoid coming into contact with their piticular phobia of choice. Hence the definition "exaggerated and illogical". My ex, for example, was "arachnophobic" (fear of spiders). So not only would she not touch a spider, but even more so, she wouldn't even go near a place where she thought she might remotely run the chance on seeing one (i.e. a barn, a basement, a garage, an abandon building, a cottage, etc..). So by these standards of definitions, for a person to be truly "homophobic", not only would they not associate with anyone homosexual (converse with, keep company with, work alongside), then they would also do everything in thieir power, to avoid homosexuals at all costs. Even if it meant rarely leaving thier homes. THAT, would ential a true "phobia" of homosexuals.

i dont really think it has much to do with genetics, i think its to do with the chemicals in the brain..which arent right. my dad reckons homosexuality is a diease which can be cured...but i dont see how, you cant force a hetrosexual to be gay, so i dont see how you can do it to a homosexual

Thank you Captain Obvious. In fact, any medical researcher likes to find cures for shit, that's their job. If it is found to be a born trait, a Homophobic medical researcher would view it as a bad "disease" and thus try to cure it. That was a joking statement. Dismiss it as such.

Secondly, never inform me of what the words I use mean. I tend to know.

To this day that kid is still homosexual. If he is imitating a television show or instance, then he has taken the imitation 4 years too far. I would like to agree with your statement that you must dismiss the studies from 20/20, in fact I'd like to note the "He wanted to prove it wasn't his choice and it was his nature." Thus, the article is dismissed on the bias of the author.

i dont really think it has much to do with genetics, i think its to do with the chemicals in the brain..

You do realize that DNA->mRNA->Proteins, right?


which arent right.


Absolute bullshit. It is not a disease.


my dad reckons homosexuality is a diease which can be cured...but i dont see how, you cant force a hetrosexual to be gay, so i dont see how you can do it to a homosexual

If you don't see how you can force a heterosexual to be homosexual, what on earth makes you think you can force a homosexual to be heterosexual?

I think it's just way a person is born. It just happens, it's no ones fault, just the way you are.

I think it is developed. I am in psychology and we have learned that certain events happen to people that traumatize them. Now, with that said a homosexual person may have had a traumatic bad event (i.e. rape, molestation from parent or other adult figure etc.) or may have had a traumatic event in where every relationship they have had has gone bad with the opposite sex over and over and they just can't take it. Their friends may turn homosexual if they are around enough of the environment to psychologically be made that way.

Theres more but i don't feel like typing it all

I forgot, it wasn't his OPINION. The show was played many years ago, and my frail aging human mind tends to forget details. What I do remember is the Doctor was studing a certain part of the human brain and noted that most homosexuals had three times the densidity in this part of the brain as a hetrosexual did. I will search for the doctor's name and his review of the studies when I am able to locate them.

Other relevent news (http://www.counterbalance.net/genetics/orient-body.html)

I personally think you're born like that. I mean, I am gay and I have alot of friends who are too...and none of us know why. It's not like I woke up one day and said "Wow I think I'm gonna be gay for now on." It just doesn't happen like that. I also think the way the media shoves it in your face may be a factor in the increasing amount of homosexuals. Impresionable (sp?) kids are watching TV all the time and its being shoved at them 24/7. So I think it's a mix of both being born like that and it just being everywhere around you.


Note:I remember one of my friends said once it had something to do with chromosones but I dunno...my friends arn't the brightest people in the world...let me tell you...LoL.
i agree with you but just because it is shoved in front of your face doesnt mean u have to be gay...i mean you do have a choice....and i dont think your born with anything but to live....i think everything u do in life is choices...and i believe people make the choice to be gay....as well as people choose to be straight

Thank you Captain Obvious. In fact, any medical researcher likes to find cures for shit, that's their job. If it is found to be a born trait, a Homophobic medical researcher would view it as a bad "disease" and thus try to cure it. That was a joking statement. Dismiss it as such.

Secondly, never inform me of what the words I use mean. I tend to know.

To this day that kid is still homosexual. If he is imitating a television show or instance, then he has taken the imitation 4 years too far. I would like to agree with your statement that you must dismiss the studies from 20/20, in fact I'd like to note the "He wanted to prove it wasn't his choice and it was his nature." Thus, the article is dismissed on the bias of the author.

You can refer to me by my name, and despense with the juvenille name-calling. In case you hadn't bothered to read the rules of "dabate". If you can't manage that, then don't bother refering to me at all.

Personally, I believe that people are born gay (every gay person I know has told me that they agree with that). The explanation I've heard is that the levels of hormones (mainly testosterone and oestrogen) in the womb while the foetus is developing influences. I haven't done any special research on the stages of development of the zygote and foetus, but that explanation sounds reasonable IMO.

Let's put the medical debate aside for a moment however.

Even the gay people who had a very strong supportive family and friends and support structure for their adolescence and didn't suffer any victimisation from it told me that it was still emotionally very difficult for them, as they were scared and confused and worried about their sexuality.

Now why on earth (assuming that you could choose to be gay) would you want to be scared, angry and potentially alienated from your family and friends and society in general?

You do realize that DNA->mRNA->Proteins, right? genes are what you inherit from your parents, i dont think you can inherit your sexuality from your parents



Absolute bullshit. It is not a disease. i never said it was a diease...im am against the suggestion that it is a diease!!



If you don't see how you can force a heterosexual to be homosexual, what on earth makes you think you can force a homosexual to be heterosexual?i dont think you can force a homosexual to be hetrosexual...that was what i was trying to say in the first place@!!

You do realize that DNA->mRNA->Proteins, right?

genes are what you inherit from your parents, i dont think you can inherit your sexuality from your parents

Some genes are hereditary and some aren't... otherwise we'd all be exactly the same.

By you're arguement, you are assuming that all genes are hereditary. It's called recessive genes.

As a straight guy, I am not sure but I feel that most homosexuals are born with genetic differences than they of straight people. However, much of the "flaming" that is seen today is a learned trait. It is hard for me to understand that Anna Nicole's designer, "Bobby whatever" was born that way. I do believe that he was born gay but I think that he has culitvated it to a lifestyle that he wouldn't normaly have. Just be gay and not so flamboyant. Most gays who are like him, may be playing to the camera and the "Hollywood Glamour" lifestyle but in the end they are looked at as being different than most homosexuals. I have several gay friends who can't stand him or the Queer Eye guys. They say that they take a part of a person (being gay) and distort the truth by over acting. In the end we are all humans and should be look at as such.

Spreading the conservative way on the homosexual homefront once again.

tMR

My best friend is gay. We had a loong conversation about this. He said that for as long as he can remember he has always had an interst in boys. When he should of been chasing the girls, he wanted to chase the boys. His parents raised him right, took him to church, did everything they could do. In my opinion i think i agree with what was said before, it might not be genetics, but there has to be some kind of chemical reaction in the brain. The only reason why i say that is bc, I just watched an episode on TLC about severly neglected children, and it showed how there electical charge in the left side of the brain wasnt there anymore, their brains were smaller and it went on and on. To me, i think there is alot we still dont know about the brain and how it works.

If it's a question of Nature vs Nurture, I'd have to say it's a bit of both.

Nurture - you'd have to talk yourself into being homosexual to a certain extent - by that I mean you'd have to come to terms with the shit that you'll more than likely have to put up with for the rest of your days, and make a conscious choice that it's worth it.

Nature - I believe that this is massively important in define your sexuality, much more so than your environment. This is why people make the choice I mentioned above - they HAVE to be who they are.

If it was more about choice than about Who You Are, then why would anyone choose it as a lifestyle? Stigma, social isolation, abuse and bigotry, these are common in the lives of openly gay people. Sounds real inviting, doesn't it? Just so you can live the same life everyone else does... Nah, sorry. I don't buy it.

Also, if there's a choice involved, how come you get gay animals? (Syd's Cat, for example). They can't talk themselves into anything.

99% Genetic, 1% Choice. :)

Further evidence - there are some men that I find physically beautiful. Don't ask me why... I'm not gay in any sense of the word, it's just from time to time I can appreciate a real beauty in the odd man. That's not something I'm ashamed of, nor is it something I can help. QED.

:)

Is homosexuality genetic? Maybe it is partially determined by genetics. People often point out that animals in the wild can be homosexual. However, most everyone admits that these are very rare cases. And since they are so hell-bent on how we are like animals, and should expect our behavior to be like other animals' behavior, shouldn't homosexuality be relatively rare? But it's not nearly as rare as it would be if that were the case, so some environmental factor (or decision factor) must be at play.

I fail to believe that people choose their sexual orientation. Why would anyone choose something that ostracizes, stereotypes, and categorizes them? The answer is simple: nobody would. The weak father/strong mother scenario is one that often accounts for the missing environment link, but it's not always there. So what else causes homosexuality? I don't know.

Also, if homosexuality is genetic, how does that account for the Darwinian theory of survival of the most reproductively fit? Homosexuals are obviously not very reproductively fit. Most gay men I know couldn't force themselves to have sex with a woman even if they wanted to for reproductive purposes. Is the population of homosexuals increasing as we find our own means for reproduction (ie artificial insemination)? Also, if genetics is a SOLE DETERMINANT of sexuality, the gene would never survive. Therefore, as with any psychological phenomenon (IQ, alcoholism, personality type) we need to look both to genetics and experience for the answer to the homosexual question.

Oh, and about the doctor who did the brain-size experiment. It was a beautifully done experiment, and its results were well accepted by the scientific community. What was not well accepted was the doctor's explanation of the phenomenon. While he said that this biological difference caused homosexuality, it could easily be the other way around. Homosexuality could have caused the change in brain size.

A lot of work has been done criticizing this study's validity. Living a promiscuous homosexual lifestyle (as many of these men did) put them at greater risk for having late-stage AIDS (again, which many of them did), which could have increased the size of a certain area of their brains (which it has been known to). Thus, the good doctor might have had good results if his study was not so biased in the first place. I'd be interested in a study that measured the brain mass of children and then recorded their adult sexual orientation. But it would be expensive, and it would have to involve thousands of babies, and many of them would drop out or move away...guess that's why it hasn't been done. Grr...

People often point out that animals in the wild can be homosexual. However, most everyone admits that these are very rare cases. And since they are so hell-bent on how we are like animals, and should expect our behavior to be like other animals' behavior, shouldn't homosexuality be relatively rare?

::: One Indian Chief to another :::

"Why do you ask, Two Bucks Fucking?"

tMR

First off, If finding guys really attractive... and finding girls not so much then I'm gay... by that deffinition anyways...

I don't think people are born gay nor do i believe it is a concious choice. I think it's some freaky emotional problem.

Another thought: If being homosexual really is genetic, how is it people who were once really attracted to the same sex can change and be attract6ed to the opposite sex? It's hapenned

~Reese

First off, If finding guys really attractive... and finding girls not so much then I'm gay... by that deffinition anyways...

I don't think people are born gay nor do i believe it is a concious choice. I think it's some freaky emotional problem.

Another thought: If being homosexual really is genetic, how is it people who were once really attracted to the same sex can change and be attract6ed to the opposite sex? It's hapenned

~Reese
Bisexuality can be genetic as well. The genetic factor could be something that only leads to a tendency toward homosexuality.

Well... let me put in my 2 cents. Yeah, I'm gay. Whoever didn't know, knows now. I think I was born with homosexual tendencies, if that's what you want to call it. But I strongly believe that I just turned out this way, without the 'gene' or not. Because to tell you the truth, I wouldn't be gay if I wasn't born with it. All the people that I love that it would hurt to know that I was, I wouldn't want to change into that because it would hurt me too. But, I am not ashamed of who I am, or what I have become. I'm proud to be gay. Wether or not I was born with it or not, I really don't care. I am what I am, and there's nothing I can do to change it. Or atleast I don't want to. :)

I think it can be either.

I'm sure there are cases of hereditary / genetic homosexuality, but I think it can also be a decision. Some people I've talked to said they've always felt different their entire lives, and then eventually realized they were just homosexual. Then again, others I've talked to were originally heterosexual by choice, but later their ideals and interests just changed.

I truly don't think homosexuality as a whole can be completely catagorized as just one of the two, though.

I think it can be either.

I'm sure there are cases of hereditary / genetic homosexuality, but I think it can also be a decision. Some people I've talked to said they've always felt different their entire lives, and then eventually realized they were just homosexual. Then again, others I've talked to were originally heterosexual by choice, but later their ideals and interests just changed.

I truly don't think homosexuality as a whole can be completely catagorized as just one of the two, though.
I agree completely...
I was the same way. Things just change. That's all. :confused: I guess.

[QUOTE=image_keeper]I don't think anyone can be born anything. Whether it be hetrosexual or homosexual. I think it's developed.[/QUOTE}

But... why?
I just think they can't. I think it's just developed for the most part. I mean when someone is born, it's not like exacly they are "gay" or "straight" yet. I just think over time that they end up choosing/being hetrosexual or homosexual.

Sigh. You mean like being blue eyed? A propensity for retinoblastoma? How about schizophrenic? Or with ALS? Or having a tendency to anger easily?
No it's different. It's not like you're born and you think "I'm straight" or I'm gay", I think it's developed.

I think people become gay because they are either raped/sexually molested or forced to do sexual things (bj's) when they were very young. Or maybe the person experimented with their friends and became gay?

Thats my opinion.

I definately believe homosexuality is genetic.

I think homosexuality occurs when, for example -- a male fetus develops a lot of the female hormone - estrogen. So when he is born and grows older, he finds himself attracted to members of the same sex, and perhaps he will act more "Girly".

Depending on how high or low you were born with the opposite sex's hormone -- determines your sexuality.

In females I think it must be a little different. Because we are born with a good portion of testosterone naturally. So I think it's easy for us to teeter on both sides. Where in men it is more defined.

But this is just a guess. I am very uneducated in this stuff. :P

Just thought this would be an interesting debate. I haven't fully decided my opinion on the matter, but I'm curious to see what everyone else has to say.

Is homosexuality a trait one is born with, or is it something that is nurtured and developed in later years of a life?

It's been proven that a gay man's lymbic system in his brain, which determines someone's sexual preference, is smaller than a straight man's.

So, yes, people are born gay or straight.
~Alyssa~

I believe I have been bisexual my entire life. My first crush was a boy in kindergarten, then in the 3rd grade was my next crush and it was a girl. I have never had anything sexually traumatic happen to me but I do think it COULD be a cause. I'm really just a lovey person. I want to be able to love anyone, hell I know people who are happier with say a goldfish or a puppy, rather than dating! I'm serious too!! You love who you love!! There is nothing wrong with that...

*loves everybody*

I think people become gay because they are either raped/sexually molested or forced to do sexual things (bj's) when they were very young. Or maybe the person experimented with their friends and became gay?

Thats my opinion.
I don't generally like to diss people's opinions without good reason, but I really think that you are trying to stir up trouble with your horrible attitude, or you are simply a poor retard that needs both professional help AND our sympathy. Unfortunately, I am not readily willing to provide the latter.

People are gay because they were raped as children... OK. Are you Mental?

No... Fuck it - I'm not getting into this fight - it'll just be a slanging match between me and this IDIOT and we don't need to waste the bandwidth.

(actually, I'd LOVE to waste the bandwidth, but it'd be boring for the rest of you. :) )

Queptor, Please don't say anything to anyone else about anything important, EVER. I'm afraid you're just too much of a fool.

Thanks. ;)

Most people who have been sexually abused by a member of the same sex and who are gay have said that they were born gay, the abuse did NOT change their sexuality.

People who are not gay but who have been abused by a same sex person may feel guilty and confused at times, true, but that's usually because their body physically responded to the abuse, even though it has NOTHING to do with their sexuality or indeed their mental attitude towards the abuse. Again, most of them recognise that, although dealing with it is another matter.

I think it's probably a little bit of both inborn and environmental. Either way, it doesn't matter to me. I have no idea why some people get so caught up over homosexuality when we all have our own lil' kinky quirks. Besides, with no homosexuality, we would live in a society with no lesbians! Is that what you really want? I think not.

But on to the really important question: Britney's Breasts- Genetic or "developed?" Like homosexuality, it doesn't matter to me. I like 'em either way. :D


~Kurt

Given that we are talking about sexual preferences, here is a question. If homosexuality is genetic, from where do our body-type preferences come from? Some men like big breasts, some like small ones, some like petite girls, some like bigger girls. From where does this come from? Is this genetic? Do people have a genetic disposition to like bigger boobs? You can take a male who has not been exposed to sexual education or situations and yet will still like one body-type more than another.

It has been my experience that we are all bisexual to some degree. Whether we are classified as homosexual or heterosexual depends on where you sit on the bisexual curve. I believe that all heterosexual people have at some point had homosexual curiousities. This is difficult to prove, unfortunately, because many will be unwilling to admit it. I'm sure that this is true for homosexuals as well, having heterosexual curiousities. I believe that there may be a possibility of genetic propensity which would offset the curve, but that a child's experiences also shape and solidify the shape of the curve for the child. Seemingly minor events can have a great influence on the psyche and developement as a child. As we all know, different children react differently to different situations and different methods of learning. Therefore, it would seem logical to conclude that genetics affects how we learn and think. This would seem to indicate the possibility of having a genetic propensity to recieve certain scenarios and have the psyche altered by them in such a way as to create a sexual preference one way or another. The scenarios would be different for each child and what one child reacts to another might not. I'm not sure that I buy that you are born gay from day one. I suggest that if children were raised in an entirely homosexual enviroment, there would be a substantial percentage increase in the number of children who grow up to be gay. This would seem to indicate that psychological "nurture" factors are involved. By the same token, perhaps not all of the children go up to be gay. This would indicate a genetic propensity to analyze the enviroment and still stay on one side of the curve. Finally, we know that sexual preference is psychological. A person can be conditioned into a different sexual preference. This would indicate that there is a choice being made. At some point, the mind makes a choice to accept the conditioning. Furthermore, if someone feels an sexual urge towards a member of the sex outside of their preference, they make a choice. They choose to pursue this urge or not.

Long road short, it seems to me that nature, nurture, and choice are all involved. Am I making any sense? Sorry about rambling. It's been a very long day at work and my mind is fried right now. :(

MQ you've also forgot to mention cases that seem odd to other cultures. One such example is the lip disks used by many tribes, the men prefer men with larger disks and dislike women with small disks or broken lips. If you believe that sexual preference is based on biology you should get a good counter argument for that.

"...I also believe homosexuality is more biological the enviromental." The idea is that you are born with a genetic code to survive, to continue your genetic make up, basic law of nature. If those genetics tell you that you like men instead of women, you will probably follow them. Much like the genetics of murderers and thieves. However, not all children are born killers. Same idea.

Remember you are 98% monkey.

I believe I have been bisexual my entire life. My first crush was a boy in kindergarten, then in the 3rd grade was my next crush and it was a girl. I have never had anything sexually traumatic happen to me but I do think it COULD be a cause. I'm really just a lovey person. I want to be able to love anyone, hell I know people who are happier with say a goldfish or a puppy, rather than dating! I'm serious too!! You love who you love!! There is nothing wrong with that...

*loves everybody*


Woo! Go You! :D It's true. And I'm sick of the CWA saying "You don't HAVE to be gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender (GLBT), you could stop if you WANTED to." ever heard of in denial? :mad:
Smooth CWA. Real Smooth. Too bad something called science is around. :eek:
~Alyssa~

It has been my experience that we are all bisexual to some degree. Whether we are classified as homosexual or heterosexual depends on where you sit on the bisexual curve. I believe that all heterosexual people have at some point had homosexual curiousities. This is difficult to prove, unfortunately, because many will be unwilling to admit it. I'm sure that this is true for homosexuals as well, having heterosexual curiousities.

I believe that too! Everyone's bisexual, some just lean one way or the other. That would explain my obsession with Amy Lee...lol :p Nah, I haven't had a homosexual experience yet, but you never know...
~Alyssa~ :cool:

I think it is developed. I am in psychology and we have learned that certain events happen to people that traumatize them. Now, with that said a homosexual person may have had a traumatic bad event (i.e. rape, molestation from parent or other adult figure etc.) or may have had a traumatic event in where every relationship they have had has gone bad with the opposite sex over and over and they just can't take it. Their friends may turn homosexual if they are around enough of the environment to psychologically be made that way.

Theres more but i don't feel like typing it all

Had to comment here.

I'm in Psychology, too. I find it absolutely intriguing.

I was never traumatized.

Also? Not quite straight.

Hmmmmm... I certainly didn't wake up one day and decide "I'm going to like girls today." That started making itself known before I had any knowledge of sex whatsoever. Didn't know any gay people, didn't know what the word "lesbian" meant. I was completely "innocent" and sheltered.

Yet in gym class, I had a flash of kissing this other girl that was in there. Looking back, I was always drawn to girls.

I did have crushes on guys, but they were usually of the unattainable variety. Hell, I still find the occasional guy cute. Oddly enough, I'm wildly attracted to gay guys, which REALLY makes the sense that doesn't.

Wow, tangent.

Basically, I took issue with the way you worded your post. The way you wielded the "I'm in psychology," it's like you wanted us to accept, point blank, your way as THE answer.

Maybe I got into Psych because I wanted to figure out why I was so different. Then I realized that I'm really not THAT different from other people. I'm just like other girls.

I just have no idea what in the WORLD people see in Orlando Bloom. :D

I just have no idea what in the WORLD people see in Orlando Bloom. :Dorlando was hot in lord of the rings, and a little in pirates...but for some reason i was more drawn to johnny depp in that movie.
i dont know orlando bloom reminds me too much of my brother for me to be attracted to him.

It's been proven that a gay man's lymbic system in his brain, which determines someone's sexual preference, is smaller than a straight man's.

So, yes, people are born gay or straight.
~Alyssa~

But wait - these are adults you're talking about. Maybe a gay man's LIMBIC system is smaller than a straight man's because he is gay, not the other way around. The problem is that you've examined these people after they have been practicing their sexual orientation for a long time, so you can't really say anything about the condition of their limbic systems before they knew they were gay.

You are confusing correlation with causation. That's not good. An example of this problem, called causalation, is this: Murder rates correlate positively with ice cream sales (this is 100% true). In other words, the more ice creams sold on a given day, the more murders will be committed. Okay, that's fine. That's called a correlation. BUT it would be highly improper to say that (a)ice cream makes people more likely to commit murder or (b)committing murder makes people want to go out and buy ice cream. In fact, neither explanation is correct. The correct explanation is that increases in temperature cause a rise in emotional overreactivity and irrationality, and thus a rise in murder rate. The rise in temperature, of course, also causes the increase in ice cream sales. (An interesting sidenote: The murder rate correlates positively with temperature increase until the temperature reaches 99 degrees Fahrenheit - approx human body temp - then drops off sharply after that. Wonder why that is...?)

I personally think you're born like that. I mean, I am gay and I have alot of friends who are too...and none of us know why. It's not like I woke up one day and said "Wow I think I'm gonna be gay for now on." It just doesn't happen like that. I also think the way the media shoves it in your face may be a factor in the increasing amount of homosexuals. Impresionable (sp?) kids are watching TV all the time and its being shoved at them 24/7. So I think it's a mix of both being born like that and it just being everywhere around you.




omg, yes exactly, same thing here, meaning as, i have friends like that, me too :D and just like you said, we just didnt come up with the idea to be gay, i do too think its something you're kinda born with. and then later in life, you grow up, and depending on how you grew up, for instance, i was always around my sisters, my brothers picked on me a lot, and i didnt like to hang out with them, so id be with my sisters, then you know i guess something from them rubbed off onto me :D its nots something so simple to explain, besides that we are kinda just born like this.or for me anyway. lol.

oh and goddesk, that was a good point as well :D

one of my gay friends (ill just call him bob) told asked one of our straight friends (ill just call him boo) "are you straight?" boo responded "yeah"
bob then said "well how do you know, you never had sex before with a girl, so how do you know?" the reason he was asking him that, was because a lot of parents ask their child once they find out that he/she is gay "well how do you know you're gay, you've never had sex with a boy/girl." it made perfect sense at the time, hope it does now :D

mmmm Johnny yeah I gotta say Johnny is da man!

orlando was hot in lord of the rings, and a little in pirates...but for some reason i was more drawn to johnny depp in that movie.
i dont know orlando bloom reminds me too much of my brother for me to be attracted to him.

I never said the word "fag" or I never said that I hated gays.
So if my opinion was offensive to anyone else, then I'm sorry and calling me an Idiot and a poor retard was something I did not wan't to hear. :(
That was coming from a person taht has a lot of Reputation so I guess everybody hates me now. :(

I don't generally like to diss people's opinions without good reason, but I really think that you are trying to stir up trouble with your horrible attitude, or you are simply a poor retard that needs both professional help AND our sympathy. Unfortunately, I am not readily willing to provide the latter.

People are gay because they were raped as children... OK. Are you Mental?

No... Fuck it - I'm not getting into this fight - it'll just be a slanging match between me and this IDIOT and we don't need to waste the bandwidth.

(actually, I'd LOVE to waste the bandwidth, but it'd be boring for the rest of you. :) )

Queptor, Please don't say anything to anyone else about anything important, EVER. I'm afraid you're just too much of a fool.

Thanks. ;)
I never said the word "fag" or I never said that I hated gays.
So if my opinion was offensive to anyone else, then I'm sorry and calling me an Idiot and a poor retard was something I did not wan't to hear. :(
That was coming from a person that has a lot of Reputation so I guess everybody hates me now. :(

I never said the word "fag" or I never said that I hated gays.
So if my opinion was offensive to anyone else, then I'm sorry and calling me an Idiot and a poor retard was something I did not wan't to hear. :(
That was coming from a person that has a lot of Reputation so I guess everybody hates me now. :(
No, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with the green dots under your name... You said that you thought people chose to be gay because they were sexually abused as children.

That's basically offensive, not to mention stupid, Ill-considered and WRONG.

Now STFU, at least on this topic. (By stopping you opening your stupid mouth, I'm actually doing you a favour... you might not see it like that right now, but you will, in the months to come...)

I watched a programme which explained that homosexuality is a genetic inheritance. I think some men are nurtured into experimenting with homosexuality simply because it's treated as something glamarous and fashionable but that these people arent actually gay, there simply experimenting seeing as life seems to be all about choices and options these days, even in things you wouldnt expect.

These days, your encouraged to experiment with your sexuality to see what your peferences are. As a result of this, I think that some people become confused with what they are simply experimenting with and what they actually are.

It has been my experience that we are all bisexual to some degree.

I agree with that, I think everyone is bisexual, because, if you think about it, if you were purly hetrosexual, you would have absolutly NO emotion towords ANYONE of the SAME SEX. But, you see, "straight" people have friends of the same sex, am I not right? And they do care about those friends, atleast a little, correct? If you were purly hetrosexual, you wouldn't care about anyone of the same sex at all, right? Or maybe I'm just thinking into it a lot further than I need to....but whatever.

I agree with that, I think everyone is bisexual, because, if you think about it, if you were purly hetrosexual, you would have absolutly NO emotion towords ANYONE of the SAME SEX. But, you see, "straight" people have friends of the same sex, am I not right? And they do care about those friends, atleast a little, correct? If you were purly hetrosexual, you wouldn't care about anyone of the same sex at all, right? Or maybe I'm just thinking into it a lot further than I need to....but whatever.

If you were hetrosexual, you would not feel any (or have any serious attraction, the definition varies for other people) sexual attraction to members of the same sex.

I don't believe that a child that has been sexually abused will end up gay. But I do believe it'll have an affect on them to the extent of not having any trust for the opposite sex and therefore they may consider looking to people of the same sex to depend on more, maybe not sexually but emotionally. I also believe that if you are bisexual and you are abused it may end up pushing you to be more inclined to prefer a same sex relationship. But I don't think being abused can turn you gay.

I don't think being gay is developed. You are born that way. I don't think it is genetic either. I think some people are just gay where as others are straight. Just like some people are born brunette and others blonde. I don't think it is passed on though because a completely straight family can potentially have gay offspring.

It isn't developed either because a gay couple can just as easily raise a straight kid as a straight couple can raise a gay kid. I think the environment can determine how openly gay a person will be. If a person feels like they will be accepted as gay they'll be more open about it where as they'll hide it if they feel their parents won't approve. Sometimes the more open the environment is the more potential there'll be for that person to be stereotypically gay.

Hmmm this made more sense in my own head...

I agree with that, I think everyone is bisexual, because, if you think about it, if you were purly hetrosexual, you would have absolutly NO emotion towords ANYONE of the SAME SEX. But, you see, "straight" people have friends of the same sex, am I not right? And they do care about those friends, atleast a little, correct? If you were purly hetrosexual, you wouldn't care about anyone of the same sex at all, right? Or maybe I'm just thinking into it a lot further than I need to....but whatever.
That's pretty irrational. The term actual means sexual attraction, not just emotion period. Yes, we "straights" commonly have same sex friends, just a dirty habit we've picked up. No, no, purely heterosexual simply means you prefer only the opposite sex to, well, sex.
I don't think it is passed on though because a completely straight family can potentially have gay offspring.
You just killed you logic of it being genetic. More appropriately, an entire brown-eyed family can have a blue-eyed child, it's a handy little thing called recessive. The recessive traits can also be applied to personality as well. I think that makes more sense...

I believe it is genetic. I have a friend who was feminine when we were little and he came out to me a few years back. I wasn't shocked.

My mom and her brothers were friends with this one family with a girl and 2 boys. The boys are gay. That may be genetic.

I think it's a combination of both. So is everything else that makes up one's personality. It puzzles me as to why some people claim the tendency is solely genetic or solely environmental.

I agree with you, I know someone who was gay ever since they were little but was afraid to admit it for years because her family was prejudice against homosexuals and lesbians. Finally she admitted to her mother who also turned out to be a closet homsexual for most of her life but married a man and had four children. Her husband also was gay or bi sexual, he still has not admitted it, but alot of people suspect because homoerotic material has been found on several occasions in his personal office and bathroom as well as his car. So it is based on different things in one's life not just choice or genetics.

interesting. I have never heard of that, but I am not suprised.

Well, I read a few pages back about people being gay because they got raped or experimented when they were younger.....

Hmm... well about the being raped/molested thing. Are you crazy? I mean, if you were forced to do something against your will, that you were strictly against, I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't just turn gay because your a guy and a guy raped/molested you, and vis-versa.

And about the experimenting... yeah I did that. But ONLY after I knew 100% sure that I was gay. Sure maybe some people do experiment and turn out that way, but it's a very small percentage, if any.

I'm sure people don't just wake up one morning and say 'hmm, today I'm gunna start being gay.' Yeah, that just doesn't happen.

I grew up with 2 sisters. And I was REALLY close with my older sister. I would always give her advice about her relationships and all that. Perhaps that's part of the reason why I am gay. There including the 'development' theory. But I do believe that I was born with it. No matter how thin you cut it.

...her mother who also turned out to be a closet homsexual for most of her life but married a man and had four children. Her husband also was gay or bi sexual, he still has not admitted it, but alot of people suspect because homoerotic material has been found on several occasions in his personal office and bathroom as well as his car...
That's interesting. So even though she was gay, she could stand being with a man enough to have four kids. I wonder if there's a such thing as being 100% homosexual for either sex. Sometimes people who call themselves gay (not bi) will be with someone of the opposite sex under certain rare conditions. Are any gay guys actually repulsed by the idea of shagging a girl?

That's interesting. So even though she was gay, she could stand being with a man enough to have four kids. I wonder if there's a such thing as being 100% homosexual for either sex. Sometimes people who call themselves gay (not bi) will be with someone of the opposite sex under certain rare conditions. Are any gay guys actually repulsed by the idea of shagging a girl?
Well, sometimes it's just a cover up. If you know what I mean.

And about being repulsed?... well that's not the problem, it's the whole... downstairs issue. Yeah, that's it.

No, there's not been a gay gene discovered yet. The studies that point to genetic factors have to do with the size of structures in the brain IIRC.

Yeah, it's the Limbic System. It's been proven by British Scientists that the limbic (or is it spelled lymbic? :rolleyes: ) system in gay males is sufficiently smaller than the one in straight males. And they are born that way.
But growing up a certain way, in a certain enviroment, etc. does help contribute to a person's sexual preference.

~Alyssa~ :eek:

i Haven't read the whole thing, just bout 4 pages. Just thought i'd put my 2 cents in on this one.

When I was little all I ever thought about was playing games and watching Humphrey. It wasn't untill i was about 10 that I started noticing girls more, but being young I thought nothing of it and went about playing with my friends on the playground. For years I pushed back the thought that I liked girls, I had boyfriends but it just never felt right for me. It was until I had finished school that I started to realize (I would never have come out at my school). I guess the main moment was when I was about to go all the way with my boyfriend at the time and it just felt totally wrong.

Genetic or developed, it's one of those questions that will be around for awhile, and even when there is an answer to it, some people will just not want to believe it, mainly parents.

That's interesting. So even though she was gay, she could stand being with a man enough to have four kids. I wonder if there's a such thing as being 100% homosexual for either sex. Sometimes people who call themselves gay (not bi) will be with someone of the opposite sex under certain rare conditions. Are any gay guys actually repulsed by the idea of shagging a girl?

I have friends that are 100000000% gay. The thought of being with a girl makes them gag.

That's interesting. So even though she was gay, she could stand being with a man enough to have four kids. I wonder if there's a such thing as being 100% homosexual for either sex. Sometimes people who call themselves gay (not bi) will be with someone of the opposite sex under certain rare conditions. Are any gay guys actually repulsed by the idea of shagging a girl?

Hmm, :( well actually, I thought I was turning full on Lesbian because I used to dread the thought of having sex with any guys, and I was constantly fantasizing about other women and it went on like that forever. I was repulsed by the very thought of having sex with any guy. I didn't know what to do, but luckliy it was just a phase I was going through. But I think like mentioned before we all are at some point bisexual, at least everyone I've come in contact with has had prior homosexual thoughts, fantasies, or experiences.

I think it is developed. I am in psychology and we have learned that certain events happen to people that traumatize them. Now, with that said a homosexual person may have had a traumatic bad event (i.e. rape, molestation from parent or other adult figure etc.) or may have had a traumatic event in where every relationship they have had has gone bad with the opposite sex over and over and they just can't take it. Their friends may turn homosexual if they are around enough of the environment to psychologically be made that way.

Theres more but i don't feel like typing it all

If I'm reading that right... you're saying that everyone starts out heterosexual and that you have to be traumatized to "turn" gay? I don't believe that. We're raised to think heterosexual is the norm, but homosexuality has been around for a very long time. I know it's probably still a minority... but we need to stop thinking that heterosexuality is "normal" and homosexuality isn't - both are just traits; one may be dominant/the majority but that doesn't have anything to do with the word normal.

Anyway, I think it's a combination of nature and nurture. *shrug* I guess that's all I have to say, no lengthy paragraphs full of proof or anything :) I have many gay friends and I love them. You can say it's like a trait - blue eyes, for example - or a preference, like enjoying a specific kind of music. Who knows? It would be interesting if they found out, but I think it's kinda like personality - a mixture of both, and no real way to test it for sure. What I think would be fun is to make a clone of yourself and raise it. See if s/he turns out just like you or not. :D

Yeah, it's the Limbic System. It's been proven by British Scientists that the limbic (or is it spelled lymbic? :rolleyes: ) system in gay males is sufficiently smaller than the one in straight males. And they are born that way.
But growing up a certain way, in a certain enviroment, etc. does help contribute to a person's sexual preference.

~Alyssa~ :eek:

Well, did they measure the size of their limbic systems at birth, and then hang out for 20 years to find out if they turned out gay? I doubt it, and if they didn't, then the study doesn't prove anything about the causes of homosexuality. Don't get me wrong, it's a neat little study. But it doesn't demonstrate that the size of the limbic system influences sexual preference. It could be that sexual preference influences the size of the limbic system. Please stop this confusion of causation and correlation.

P.S. and yes, it is spelled limbic

I don't think anyone can be born anything. Whether it be hetrosexual or homosexual. I think it's developed.

i agree, i just don't see how you can be born like that. i mean it isn't like a birth defect or something.

I don't think anyone can be born anything. Whether it be hetrosexual or homosexual. I think it's developed.
Everyone has an instinct to mate (it's in their genes), and to have kids, so that the species will live on. That's true for every organism. And since homosexuals cannot have kids, I think perhaps it is because of genetics.

i agree, i just don't see how you can be born like that. i mean it isn't like a birth defect or something.
Personal incredulity is not a valid debate tactic--or even a particularly good reason to believe a certain way.

Personal incredulity is not a valid debate tactic--or even a particularly good reason to believe a certain way.

I think they are too young to understand what you are trying to tell them ;)

I think they are too young to understand what you are trying to tell them ;)
Good point :p

Should I try breaking it down real simple like or is it a lost cause?

I think you can be born with an imbalance of hormones that make ya girly or butch. Its not developed thru enviroment unless theres some wacky abuse going on when young I would assume.

I think you can be born with an imbalance of hormones that make ya girly or butch. Its not developed thru enviroment unless theres some wacky abuse going on when young I would assume.


But not all gay guys are girly and not all lesbians are butch. :p

I don't think anyone can be born anything. Whether it be hetrosexual or homosexual. I think it's developed.i agree, i just don't see how you can be born like that. i mean it isn't like a birth defect or something.

1) Why don't you think people can be born with certain tendencies?

2) Why do you think it has to be developed?

3)You realise that by saying homosexuality isn't a birth defect, you're implying it's an acquired defect? I'm sure that's not what you believe... say it ain't so...

For fuck's sake, kids - Think about what you're going to say... and then don't say it.

I think it's a combination of a hormone imbalance and possibly what you were exposed to as a child, but I certainly don't think you're born homosexual or even that you always will be.

I've heard of lots of people who thought they were heterosexual but turned to homosexuality and vice versa.

I think the term we are looking for here is genetic propensity.

Genes probably account for a certain percentage of the variance (anywhere from <1% to 100%) in whether someone is a homosexual. This means that you can be a homosexual without those genes in place (if the other factors are present), you are just x% more likely to be homosexual if you do. If you do have the gene you could easily still be heterosexual.

Example: The gene for alcoholism accounts for ~3% of the variance in whether someone becomes an alcoholic. (Colloquially) this means that there is a slightly greater chance of you becoming an alcoholic if you have that gene, but that other factors matter ( a lot) more.

That said, I do not believe that what gender you are attracted to is a conscious choice. Even if 100% of the variance is accounted for by early childhood developmental factors, that is still "set in their programming" by the time they get anywhere with it.

I would like to add that it may not be a single "gene" that can be isolated but rather a combination of traits that when activated can produce varying degrees of homosexuality.

And for those arguing a chemical imbalance, Perhaps homosexuals have higher levels of sexual hormones, estrogen and testosterone than heterosexuals. I don't know. One might compare this point to clinical depression. Is depression genetic? It is well known that it can be treated with chemicals that either stimulate or block neurotransmitters, however homosexuality can not be treated with anti-homosexuality drugs or with hormone therapy, which would suggest that it is not merely a "chemical imbalance."

I think it's a combination of a hormone imbalance and possibly what you were exposed to as a child, but I certainly don't think you're born homosexual or even that you always will be.

I've heard of lots of people who thought they were heterosexual but turned to homosexuality and vice versa.


Sexuality is fluid through a person's life.

And also? Please don't make it sound like I have funky hormones and was exposed to radiation or something when I was a kid.

'Cause that's kinda dumb, don'tcha think?

http://www.washblade.com/2004/5-21/news/worldnews/iraq.cfm

http://www.washblade.com/2004/5-21/news/worldnews/iraq.cfm
Oh, for fuck's sake... :rolleyes:

Say - weren't those damn faggots also responsible for World Wars 1 and 2??

Thanks for posting that, Lly. Idiocy like this needs to be exposed.

Oh, for fuck's sake... :rolleyes:

Say - weren't those damn faggots also responsible for World Wars 1 and 2??

Thanks for posting that, Lly. Idiocy like this needs to be exposed.

Don't forget those lousy homos were responsible for AIDS, cancer, nailing Jesus to the cross and everything evil happening! :rolleyes:

Unbelievable how stupid and bigoted people are nowadays

I think i agree with cruithne,I can definatly remember having a crush on my nursey nurse when i must've been like 3 or something and i had a thing for one of my primary school teachers all through school. so if it isn't genetic then i must've decided at an early age??

Personally I think it's something you are born with, but also something that you can develop. I mean...no one in my family as far as I know is homosexual or bisexual, yet I am. I have had these tendencies since I was a very little girl, and therefore I know I'm not going through a phase, which at times many people do during their teen years because they are still trying to find out who they truly are.

However, it may be something that is also developed. How many times have we all heard about victims who were either raped or molested at a very young age by the opposite sex who then later on developed homosexual tendencies?

Nevertheless...I don't think you can CHOOSE to be homosexual. It isn't like one day you wake up and say " Hey, I think I'm going to be homosexual today just for the hell of it." I personally believe you are born with certain tendencies, or a trauma that has indeed affected you SEVERELY may cause you to develop these tendencies, yet I do not believe that you can choose to be homosexual, nor if you are homosexual can you then choose to be heterosexual because it does not work that way.

So in any case...I believe you are born with these tendencies or that if you go through serious trauma you can develop them, yet I do not believe you choose to be homosexual or heterosexual.

Sexuality is fluid through a person's life.

And also? Please don't make it sound like I have funky hormones and was exposed to radiation or something when I was a kid.

'Cause that's kinda dumb, don'tcha think?

Sorry about that, I meant social exposure...but that might not be much of a factor. None of us will ever really know anyway, I suppose. Didn't mean to offend you.

I truly believe homosexuality is developed. I'm not a homo but I do know that everybody has hormones and we're all sexual beings. Seriously, there are tomboys, girly-men, etc. It's life. Ppl need to deal w/it. I don't like it when ppl make the excuse that "I was born w/it, I can't help it." I do think that there are skrewy hormones, but in general, I just think ppl need to own up to the fact that they chose a life of homosexuality. I mean, some ppl start off straight then turn off that road. Others just have some ... tendencies. In any case, I just dun like when ppl make excuses to make themselves feel better about something rather than own up to stuff.We're born men or women. That's about as far as it goes (besides the extravagent cases). Anywayz, this is a definite topic for discussion. I just don't agree w/being gay. I try to stay w/my beliefs on this topic.

...In any case, I just dun like when ppl make excuses to make themselves feel better about something rather than own up to stuff...I just don't agree w/being gay...

You imply that they should feel bad about their homosexual behavior. Why? It doesn't hurt anyone.

I think it's developed
Or if not, we're lucky adam wasn't homo :D

j/k

No i dinny think either, i think its to do with the feeling. On how you feel about men or woman. I dinny believe its genetic or anything like that. Its when you know you dont fancy girls anymore and you have feelings for men, its what you call finding yourself. Nothing like that can be passed on and its definetley not like a disease. Now adays its very natural. :)

hmmm....never thought about that. i think it might be both. maybe there's a little genetic part, but important is what happens later. some people become homo after they had a wife and children, or a husband and children. many influences can change something like that. as a baby there are almost no connections between the cells of the brain. everything around makes the connections grow - noises, colores, everything. and the way how they grow is the reason why we are like we are. maybe we all have this homo-gen, but we don't use it. many scientists thought about that, some say it's genetic, some say it's not, but nobody has really found out.

love is chemical. and when 2 men or 2 women fit together in this chemical way it happens.

i know my explainations are very simple, they may sound childish, but my english isn't very good, so i needed to use the few words i know. and sorry if there are stupid mistakes....i'm not that stupid, i just seem to be lol

1) Why don't you think people can be born with certain tendencies?

2) Why do you think it has to be developed?

3)You realise that by saying homosexuality isn't a birth defect, you're implying it's an acquired defect? I'm sure that's not what you believe... say it ain't so...

For fuck's sake, kids - Think about what you're going to say... and then don't say it.
I'm just saying I don't think you can be born gay or straight. I think it's just something that just happens later. What do you say about people who are unsure about their sexuality? They can't just be born unsure about whether they are gay or straight right?
...Also you don't need to be so pissy over someone's opinion, that's why it's a debate. You're making yourself look like a kid.

Is there really a thing such as sexuality? It seems like people today are more concerned about giving or recieving pleasure than actually living a real relationship. People need to stop, think, and prosue a relationship with someone before they try to figure out what they prefer. If you think you like the same sex then begin there. If your for the opposite sex then all for ya.

I just don't agree w/being gay.

Sorry...but I guess I am not of great intellect as I though myself to be...

What do you exactly mean by not agreeing with being gay?
It seems as if though you're trying to make homosexuality sound like some sort of option.
" Oh...I'm agreeing to be gay...guess I better own up to it."
It's not like making a decision to wear red or pink on Tuesday
"Well, today is pink Tuesday, guess I better own up to it by not wearing red."
And again...what do you mean? o.o;

I don't like it when ppl make the excuse that "I was born w/it, I can't help it."
Another part I don't get..
You really can't help something you're born with ( unless you're Michael Jackson)
For example...I was born with tan colored skin. I can't help it. Seriously...I really can't because um...I WAS BORN WITH IT.

I just dun like when ppl make excuses to make themselves feel better about something rather than own up to stuff.

How...would being born with something be an excuse?

I'm really confuzzled...

I just don't agree w/being gay. I try to stay w/my beliefs on this topic.

Is that like not agreeing with being blue eyed?

I'm just saying I don't think you can be born gay or straight. I think it's just something that just happens later. What do you say about people who are unsure about their sexuality? They can't just be born unsure about whether they are gay or straight right?Well, you came dangerously close to debating there... keep at it. It'll happen. One word of advice though...
...Also you don't need to be so pissy over someone's opinion, that's why it's a debate. You're making yourself look like a kid.Simply stating your opinion is not debating. I don't really care what you think unless you tell me why you think it. If you think people are or aren't born with a sexual preference, say WHY. Otherwise it's just hot air.

I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE A PRODUCT OF OUR SURROUNDINGS AND SITUATIONAL SETTINGS.

We are studying this material in psych class and from what I understand, people are born "neutral", not "straight" nor "homosexual". We just choose to be what we are because of family customs or because of fear of indifference. :D

I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE A PRODUCT OF OUR SURROUNDINGS AND SITUATIONAL SETTINGS.

We are studying this material in psych class and from what I understand, people are born "neutral", not "straight" nor "homosexual". We just choose to be what we are because of family customs or because of fear of indifference. :D

Sigh. Not worth it.

Let me make something clear for people like this dummkopf.

0) I do not give a fuck what your opinion is. Please don't share it unless you also can share something more tangible about why. Citations are an excellent place to start.

1) Simply stating something as fact does not make it true.

2) "We were talking about" in an undergraduate or (especially) high school class room is not a valid citation. Please try to back it up with a little more than this if you want to seriously debate the topic.

I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE A PRODUCT OF OUR SURROUNDINGS AND SITUATIONAL SETTINGS.

We are studying this material in psych class and from what I understand, people are born "neutral", not "straight" nor "homosexual". We just choose to be what we are because of family customs or because of fear of indifference. :D
I won't add any more scorn, because I think Lly did an excellent job for both of us. However, I would invite you to expand.

Why do you believe we are simply a product of nurture rather than nature? (HINT - answer this sufficiently and you'll have cleared up most of 20th cetury philosophy on almost all subjects)

Are we capable of making lifestyle choices before we absorb social programming? For example, do you think I was capable of saying "No thank you, mother.. put your breast away... I find it rather vulgar. I'd really much rather have the bottle - it suits my moral idiom" when I was 2 weeks old?

OK, I'll grant you - that second bit was a little loaded, but fuck it... how open minded am I meant to be with these people? :D

We just choose to be what we are because of family customs

Which explains why SO MANY gay kids are disowned by their families when they finally come out.

Wait.

No it doesn't.

Puh-leeeze.

I'm just saying I don't think you can be born gay or straight. I think it's just something that just happens later. What do you say about people who are unsure about their sexuality? They can't just be born unsure about whether they are gay or straight right?
...Also you don't need to be so pissy over someone's opinion, that's why it's a debate. You're making yourself look like a kid.


I agree with you. You cant be born gay as something like that gets discovered later on in life, they are called feelings. Its no genetic cause if it was someones whole family would be gay. It just canny work like that :)

Its no genetic cause if it was someones whole family would be gay. It just canny work like that :)

I hereby give you a genetics grade of: F

You have failed in your knowledge of basic, basic genetics, please try again later after you have actually bothered to learn something about the field.

Actually people who are gay are born gay, it's not a choice. It's just something that your hormonal genes develop and you are born with homosexuality. By the way, I didn't mean that in any way to offend anybody. Sry...cyea

...and, again, another one.

http://www.evboard.com/showpost.php?p=405657&postcount=99

Is that like not agreeing with being blue eyed?

That's what I'm guessing...

I agree with you. You cant be born gay as something like that gets discovered later on in life, they are called feelings. Its no genetic cause if it was someones whole family would be gay. It just canny work like that :)

Discoved as in how? As in a 7 year old boy growing up in a compeletely heterosexual household finds himself attract to another boy? People have been practicing homosexuality long before it was ever talked about.

It can be possible that we all have homozygous recessive genes, but some are more prominant then others. Just like any other recessive genes.. There are both dominant allele and recessive allele for alot of our features, yet that doesn't mean we all look the same does it? You may resemble your parents, but that doesn't mean you are going to have there exact looks.

Well, you came dangerously close to debating there... keep at it. It'll happen. One word of advice though...
Simply stating your opinion is not debating. I don't really care what you think unless you tell me why you think it. If you think people are or aren't born with a sexual preference, say WHY. Otherwise it's just hot air.
Heh, I thought I said WHY many of times...

We were taught that both guys and girls have the girl hormones (estrogen) and the guys hormone (testosterone) Obviously, in a heterosexual girl, she has more estrogen than testosterone, and a heterosexual guy has more testosterone than estrogen. We got told that a homosexual guy has more estrogen than testosterone, and that a homosexual girl has more testosterone than estrogen. So basically we were told that you have no descision over whether you are gay or not. It makes sense to me, but i have no idea whether this is true or not.

I hereby give you a genetics grade of: F

You have failed in your knowledge of basic, basic genetics, please try again later after you have actually bothered to learn something about the field.


I know enough about it. I am just giving my point of view, like it was asked.
Im sorry if you didnt like my answer but i dont believe people can be born gay, and my reason why they cant be born gay because basically it cant happen. They make there own mind what they want to be like what we all do. Like a girl said earlier its hormones at an early age that can make you feel something you dont want to feel and thats how someone makes up there mind on what they are.

Actually people who are gay are born gay, it's not a choice. It's just something that your hormonal genes develop and you are born with homosexuality. By the way, I didn't mean that in any way to offend anybody. Sry...cyea

I dinny agree, im sorry. I know what you mean by the hormones but for all we know they hormones mean that we get a choice. When we get hormones we get feelings and they feelings are what we need to decide what we want to be. I mean you get gays who decide they arent gay, they decide they are bi sexual or straight. So no i dont think you can ever be born gay

I dinny agree, im sorry. I know what you mean by the hormones but for all we know they hormones mean that we get a choice. When we get hormones we get feelings and they feelings are what we need to decide what we want to be. I mean you get gays who decide they arent gay, they decide they are bi sexual or straight. So no i dont think you can ever be born gay

It would be interesting if things worked that way, but they don't.

You don't wake up and decide "I'm going to be straight today" or "I'm going to be gay today." There are physical reactions that occur before you can even think about "choosing" how you want to feel.

When you talk about hormones kicking in, you're really talking about people actually recognizing what it is they're feeling towards someone. Instead of just being "drawn to someone and you don't know why"...you know why.

i completely agree with syd! youre born with loads of hormones and you dont always realise your true sexuality until you mature and those hormones take hold. i think people who change from being gay to straight are either lying when they say they're now straight or were lying when they said they were gay. as for people who decide they're gay not straight... they were repressing their feeling because of fear of not being accepted. now they may have not even known they were supressing but it's more than likely tha they were.

well that's my opinion any way - you dont have to agree with it just have strong points to back up your argument!

I know enough about it.

No, you don't.

Incomplete penetrance, environmental factors, epistasis, multi-factor traits. Do you know what any of these are? Those aren't even the obscure ones.

I am just giving my point of view, like it was asked.


Where? Near as I can tell it was asked that you debate the topic, not post your opinion and say that genetics should work in a way that it doesn't.


Im sorry if you didnt like my answer but i dont believe people can be born gay,


Maybe you missed my post where I said I don't give a fuck about your opinion unless you can back it up, you have failed to do so except with an understanding of genetics that stopped at single factor mendelian traits.


and my reason why they cant be born gay because basically it cant happen.


Why not. There is nothing in all of genetics that indicates that it can't happen. You seem to think there is, you are wrong.


They make there own mind what they want to be like what we all do.


I didn't make up my mind to be blue eyed.

An ex's sister didn't make the decision to be schizophrenic.

I didn't make a decision to be sexually attracted to women. My friend wolvie never made a decision to be attracted to women either, but she has been for as long as she can remember.


Like a girl said earlier its hormones at an early age that can make you feel something you dont want to feel and thats how someone makes up there mind on what they are.

Burden of proof.

Louisa - just admit it. You're posting your opinions and you aren't backing them up with evidence.

Seriously - if you're going to say genetics is capable or incapable of producing a certain result, then point us in the direction of the research that backs up the statement, otherwise it's just 'what you think'.

Also, it's never wise to talk about things that you don't understand. Ask questions about them, by all means, but don't speak with authority when you clearly have no knowledge of the field. You'll NEVER hear me using genetics or any other specialist field of science in an argument, because I don't know the first thing about it - Like I said before, I leave all the book-learnin' to Lly... he's good at it. But I flatter myself i can hold my own in most discussions.

Can I make one final request? Purely a personal preference, but could you please avoid typing "Canny" and "Dinny"? Firstly, you're spelling it wrongly ;) (should be "cannae" and "Dinnae") and secondly, it just sounds so schemey.

Cheers ;)

I really think only gay/bisexual can really tell you the real debate. I mean they feel the feelings they should be able to discuss with anyone what really happens.

Whyyyyyyyyyy don't you go back and read my post at the top of the page?

Also, again, please stop double posting. Edit your last one instead.

Louisa - just admit it. You're posting your opinions and you aren't backing them up with evidence.

Seriously - if you're going to say genetics is capable or incapable of producing a certain result, then point us in the direction of the research that backs up the statement, otherwise it's just 'what you think'.

Also, it's never wise to talk about things that you don't understand. Ask questions about them, by all means, but don't speak with authority when you clearly have no knowledge of the field. You'll NEVER hear me using genetics or any other specialist field of science in an argument, because I don't know the first thing about it - Like I said before, I leave all the book-learnin' to Lly... he's good at it. But I flatter myself i can hold my own in most discussions.

Can I make one final request? Purely a personal preference, but could you please avoid typing "Canny" and "Dinny"? Firstly, you're spelling it wrongly ;) (should be "cannae" and "Dinnae") and secondly, it just sounds so schemey.

Cheers ;)

I do know the topic but i have the way i think of it in my head i just canny put it in words. I went through a period thats how i know from my own experience, i dont know from anyone elses. I am trying to tell you that you cant be born gay. I see quite a few people on here doing the same thing and the only person your picking on is me, why? Im no gonna cause an arguement with you cause frankly i dinny know you and you dinny know me for that matter. Why cast up on my writing, my spelling things has nothing to do with anyone, its just my way of spelling. I dinny go around telling you how to spell.

Please leave it be, its no worth it.

Thank you

i completely agree with syd! youre born with loads of hormones and you dont always realise your true sexuality until you mature and those hormones take hold. i think people who change from being gay to straight are either lying when they say they're now straight or were lying when they said they were gay. as for people who decide they're gay not straight... they were repressing their feeling because of fear of not being accepted. now they may have not even known they were supressing but it's more than likely tha they were.

well that's my opinion any way - you dont have to agree with it just have strong points to back up your argument!


I do get where your coming from and yeah i agree with you, i do think that could happen. Thats exactly what im trying to say but its all coming out the wrong way, please help.

Thank you

i agree, i just don't see how you can be born like that. i mean it isn't like a birth defect or something.


I agree, as i have been saying you cant be born gay cause its no a disease or anything or a birth defect like you said Whisper to me. Its something that happens later on in life.

Also, again, please stop double posting. Edit your last one instead. *looks at previous two posts in thread*
*rolls eyes*

Louisa, do you know what the term expressivity means? How about penetrance?


Why cast up on my writing, my spelling things has nothing to do with anyone, its just my way of spelling. I dinny go around telling you how to spell.


Possibly because, this being a web forum, how you write is a critical aspect of using being able to understand you.

You are difficult to understand because of your english--how you spell things, your word choice, etc. For an 18 year old in scotland I would expect better.

*looks at previous two posts in thread*
*rolls eyes*

*sigh* Let me fix all the crap into one big post.



*edit*

I think I got most of it fixed. I accidentally wiped out the one where she responded to me. Oops.

To answer that, Louisa, I was NOT saying the same thing you were. Believe me when I say that.

As for editing posts, I didn't mean delete the old ones. I meant you can edit and type the new stuff in the old box if that's the last one up there. Like I did with yours.

I do know the topic but i have the way i think of it in my head i just canny put it in words. I went through a period thats how i know from my own experience, i dont know from anyone elses. I am trying to tell you that you cant be born gay. I see quite a few people on here doing the same thing and the only person your picking on is me, why? Im no gonna cause an arguement with you cause frankly i dinny know you and you dinny know me for that matter. Why cast up on my writing, my spelling things has nothing to do with anyone, its just my way of spelling. I dinny go around telling you how to spell.


This is how I read your post. If you want people to take you seriously, you should consider not using words that make me giggle..

This is how I read your post. If you want people to take you seriously, you should consider not using words that make me giggle..

We're in the right topic for it...

Will you marry me?

Hahaha

We're in the right topic for it...

Will you marry me?

Hahaha


This is what I've been hinting at all along...

Absolutely. :D

and no haha, I'm serious. ;)

This is what I've been hinting at all along...

Absolutely. :D

and no haha, I'm serious. ;)

Rock on!

You want the white dress or the off-white one? lol

Rock on!

You want the white dress or the off-white one? lol

I'll be a bridesmaid... How about that? I'll shoe-horn my arse into a rubber miniskirt for the occasion... you know, just to keep it tasteful ;)

I'll be a bridesmaid... How about that? I'll shoe-horn my arse into a rubber miniskirt for the occasion... you know, just to keep it tasteful ;)


Oooooooh. Classy. ;)

And WOW, the mental images. haha

Rock on!

You want the white dress or the off-white one? lol


Given my past experiences, I think the off-white dress would probably be more appropriate. :D

I'll be a bridesmaid... How about that? I'll shoe-horn my arse into a rubber miniskirt for the occasion... you know, just to keep it tasteful

Somehow I see that as being tasteful at our wedding.. heh.

[/size]


This is how I read your post. If you want people to take you seriously, you should consider not using words that make me giggle..

If that makes you giggle than you say then your really easy(not in a good way) so dont think of it as a compliment. I am no gonna argue with you cause your not worth the bother

If that makes you giggle than you say then your really easy(not in a good way)

Huh? You say no me giggle you really??



Is being easy ever a bad thing? I. think. not. :D

If that makes you giggle than you say then your really easy(not in a good way) so dont think of it as a compliment. I am no gonna argue with you cause your not worth the bother

Now I *KNOW* I have told you to lighten up before.

I still mean that.

Louisa, do you know what the term expressivity means? How about penetrance?



Possibly because, this being a web forum, how you write is a critical aspect of using being able to understand you.

You are difficult to understand because of your english--how you spell things, your word choice, etc. For an 18 year old in scotland I would expect better.

Whatever mate, just keep going on and on, i dont mind infact it actually amuses me. I am eighteen but im no gonna mature just cause you have a little hang up on me(for i dont know why). I may spell immature but iam telling you, its not something you should make fun of as some people in the world have alot of problem with reading and writing and for all you know i could have that disability. So think before you write cause not everyone uses big words for to understand them. If you wanna start and arguement cause im no the pesron to start with. I am a laid back person but when someone comments on you personally and they dont know you then i will give my say. You can say what you want but i will just keep writing back, just leave it

If that makes you giggle than you say then your really easy(not in a good way) so dont think of it as a compliment. I am no gonna argue with you cause your not worth the bother

Could you find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight?

Huh? You say no me giggle you really??



Is being easy ever a bad thing? I. think. not. :D

It isn't. Unless you like...see a cuccumber and start hitting on it...and even then I am not too sure it's a bad thing.

..wait.

Whatever mate, just keep going on and on, i dont mind infact it actually amuses me. I am eighteen but im no gonna mature just cause you have a little hang up on me(for i dont know why). I may spell immature but iam telling you, its not something you should make fun of as some people in the world have alot of problem with reading and writing and for all you know i could have that disability. So think before you write cause not everyone uses big words for to understand them. If you wanna start and arguement cause im no the pesron to start with. I am a laid back person but when someone comments on you personally and they dont know you then i will give my say. You can say what you want but i will just keep writing back, just leave it

Wow, way to COMPLETELY avoid the question.

In the time it took you to type all that out, you could've hit up dictionary.com and found out what the words meant.

Whatever mate, just keep going on and on, i dont mind infact it actually amuses me. I am eighteen but im no gonna mature just cause you have a little hang up on me(for i dont know why). I may spell immature but iam telling you, its not something you should make fun of as some people in the world have alot of problem with reading and writing and for all you know i could have that disability. So think before you write cause not everyone uses big words for to understand them. If you wanna start and arguement cause im no the pesron to start with. I am a laid back person but when someone comments on you personally and they dont know you then i will give my say. You can say what you want but i will just keep writing back, just leave it
If you understand genetics, then you know what the words I've used so far mean. If you don't, then you have no right to speak about what is genetically possible or impossible.

I stand by my original statement that you get an F in terms of your genetics knowledge.

Hmmm... I think you choose to be what you are...

If you were born with it you can't change, so how can Christian homosexuals change? It is bad to be gay or lesbian in the bible, therefore I am sure they would wnat to change.. Or not date anyone at all..

Hmm this is interesting..

Anyway I think it is developed and not genetic.

If you were born with it you can't change, so how can Christian homosexuals change? Ummmmmmmmm, they dont. They just *think* they do.

EDIT: And can we get Head in here to translate for Louisa?

They have groups for GLBT Christians.

Also, as for the Bible saying it's wrong... Am I gonna have to whip out the letter to Dr. Laura again?

Oh sure, why not. It's fun.

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Oh man, Syd...that letter is tooo funny!

<3

I love that article Syd... and its so true!

LOL that is hilarious.
some people just take the Bible WAY too seriously!
i think that homosexuality is nature not nurture. but that's just my opinion

Just remember:

G-d hates shrimp (http://godhatesshrimp.com/).

Now I *KNOW* I have told you to lighten up before.

I still mean that.

Excuse me but if you want to kick me out your more than welcome. How dare you threaten me. How am i suppose to lighten up if i have stupid people having a go at me. I dont think you have a right to talk to people the way you do even if you are a moderator. I dont care.

Just leave me and i will leave you.

And that's why I'm marrying Syd.. *points up*

If you were born with it you can't change, so how can Christian homosexuals change? It is bad to be gay or lesbian in the bible, therefore I am sure they would wnat to change.. Or not date anyone at all..

You kind of just answered your own question there, did you? I mean you just stated that why would any christian choose to be gay, yet in the the same post say that it's developed. What exactly is involved in developing your sexual orientation?

Ummmmmmmmm, they dont. They just *think* they do.

EDIT: And can we get Head in here to translate for Louisa?

Excuse me but do you know me at all. I didnt think so, if i want your opinion about myself i would ask. You can keep writing stupid things about me on here, but guess what i wont be reading them so there would be no point in writing about me.

How am i suppose to lighten up if i have stupid people having a go at me.

You are going after yourself?

If you understand genetics, then you know what the words I've used so far mean. If you don't, then you have no right to speak about what is genetically possible or impossible.

I stand by my original statement that you get an F in terms of your genetics knowledge.

"I DONT CARE". I mean theres no need to get into a hissy fit over the whole thing. I dont care what you say. I get an F, well woooppeeeeee.

You are going after yourself?

Well if iam then your no better.

You are going after yourself?

That's what I'm guessing. Either that or...no..that seems just about the only answer to that one. No way to debate with that fact since...well it is one.

Louisa - Check your PMs

:)

*edit* - That's short for 'Private Messages' - Not, you know... "women's troubles" ;)

Reading this thread is kind of like watching a cat chase it tail. Amusing yet pittiful at the same time.