Someone posted this on another forum and many replyed saying that the goverment should be getting rid of them because they hurt our economy and they take our jobs...etc. Someone also said that Mexico is a "shithole" and that the "shit" comes to us. You can read that HERE (http://www.emuasylum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21318&perpage=20&highlight=immigrants&pagenumber=1).

I was really pissed off at their immature and racist remarks so I would like to know what you guys think about this issue.

I would just like to say that Mexicans aren't the only people coming to the U.S.

Someone posted this on another forum and many replyed saying that the goverment should be getting rid of them because they hurt our economy and they take our jobs...etc. Someone also said that Mexico is a "shithole" and that the "shit" comes to us. You can read that HERE (http://www.emuasylum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21318&perpage=20&highlight=immigrants&pagenumber=1).

I was really pissed off at their immature and racist remarks so I would like to know what you guys think about this issue.

I would just like to say that Mexicans aren't the only people coming to the U.S.

You're right. It's not just Mexicans. But I will say that illegal immigrants are bad. I feel that if you want to live in the United States, you should do what the government tells you to do to become a legal citizen.

The racist remarks are uncalled for, I agree. But, like I said, illegal immigration is wrong. They should sick Blockbuster on illegal immigrants.. Shit, you have a movie for one day longer than you're supposed to and they are RIGHT THERE up your ass with a late fee... They can find anyone ;)

What's sad is there's people who agree with whoever made that topic..on that board. They need to get their heads out of their video games or whatever the site is..

I wouldn't exactly say they're hurting our jobs. Some places, yeah I guess. The thing is, most Mexicans do the lower class jobs (which makes me feel bad. We have a lot of Mexicans in our area and I used to go to the flea market to sell shit with my dad...there are a lot of Mexicans there. It's sad. There are like no white people there anymore where we go to the flea market at...I seen like two white peoples. Goddamn)

The situation that many immigrants (illegal or not) have is their country. Some don't got freedom to the insane degree we have (sometimes I think we have too much freedom..to a certain degree)...like in the Middle East and all. Many of them are like, "I want my child to have a good future. America is the land of opportunity (uh...not really as much right now - damn Bush. China is :rolleyes: )" so if they can't go, they'll try to do it for their children. It's wrong, but I agree with that somewhat.

When my dad was in the military and was over here, he had some illegal friends who got deported back and stuff. It really sucks because a lot of these people are good people. I know it's wrong to come over anyways if you can't get your passport and all, but still. It's not always the problem about following the law - many are willing to do so. But they just can't get a passport or for whatever other reasons.

Anyone remember the guy who made the floating van? (I don't know which came first, he tried it again with a different vehicle..) that shit is crazy. If he came here, he'd be getting a great job as an engineer. I guess that's what someone was referring to, about them taking over those types of jobs. Well, if we had a better econony, it'd help. And that's also the problem - too many people are coming over here, to the point that eventually...well, I don't even need to explain that.

I'm supportive of some illegal immigrants coming over (those for the right reasons who are not bad peoples), but they're risking it. If they get caught, then they should go back and not argue/run away from the law I guess. I'm just kind of in-between with this debate.

Wow. We can dig up just about anything on the internet these days can't we? I've noticed those posts were all from 29 January 2004 to 3 February 2004. Are all these people now dead? Did the mexicans get them!!??

wow..people sure are dumb, and not all immigrants are Mexican. It just too bad people are racist: ignorance kills im telling you

Someone posted this on another forum and many replyed saying that the goverment should be getting rid of them because they hurt our economy and they take our jobs...etc.
I always liked the "taking our jobs" argument. How many Americans do you know that are willing to harvest grapes for .25 an hour? I'm willing to bet not very many. Therefore, it's rather hard for the average illegal to "take" an American job. Granted, some will slip though and get a "real" job, but it's a very small fraction of the incoming population.

A lot of opposition to immigation, illegal and otherwise, is based on a lot of faulty economic understanding. One man's ability is not a threat to another. If any of you have heard of the law of comparative advantage, you know where I'm going. It basically states that some people or places are better at doing a given task than other people or places. So you can either make with harvesting grapes yourself cheaper than the immigrants, or quit complaining and be happy that the price difference between labor is being passed on to you and your grapes are cheaper, and it's also freeing up labor for more important tasks.

Sometimes, people make an objection on "humanitarian" grounds(I use the term "humanitarian" loosely). They say "oh god, they are only making about $9-10 a day, that's horrible". What they fail to consider is that the per capita income in many countries such as Mexico is much lower than it is here in the U.S. So, an income of $9-10 a day is on par with, or better than the average income in their home country. We can almost claim that it's a good economic opportunity for all involved parties, since we get our goods cheaper, since Americans aren't willing to work for such low wages, and the immigrants meet or exceed the average income for their country.

Please note: I am not racist or prejudiced against other nationalities. The comments made in the thread on the other board were uncalled for and I do not condone them. However, I don't see immigration, illegal or otherwise, as the deathly threat to the U.S. economy that others do.

Laws regarding immigration exist for a reason. They deal with everything from criminal backgrouds, to the possibility of communicable disease. When people circumvent those laws, not only does it threaten public safety, but it makes those who do follow those rules feel somewhat cheated.

Laws regarding immigration exist for a reason. They deal with everything from criminal backgrouds, to the possibility of communicable disease. When people circumvent those laws, not only does it threaten public safety, but it makes those who do follow those rules feel somewhat cheated.
Thanks. That was much more eloquently phrased than I was going to put it...

<-- Child of LEGAL immigrants.*

i think illegal immigrancy is bad. uhhhhh...lol. i was going somewhere with that; i forgot!! lol :rolleyes:

anyways, i hate it when people say "oh, they're taking over our jobs" or whatever. they're not taking over anything or taking away anything. they're just better qualified.

<-- child of LEGAL immigrants."

I think you should go through the process to become a LEGAL citizen if you want in so bad. It cant be that bad can it?

<-- Child of LEGAL immigrants.*

Eh-hehehehe. Same here. *huggerz*

There's this annoying kid in my class that says that whites will become the minority in 40? 80? years here in US. The teacher asked him why and he replied something like "because those Mexicans are breeding too fast and coming here." Now that got me very very mad. I felt like turning around and punching him. The teacher flipped out, but still, those words lingered in my mind.
I'm not Mexican, but it still stung, because he was infering about other races too.

And about becoming a legal immigrant, it takes money, and most Mexicans don't have that sort of money. I really wish I could help those poor children out somehow down there. Did you know that illegal immigrants from Mexico and so desperate to come here that they take the dangerous path through the desert here in AZ? Many don't make it, and bodies are always being found. *sobbbb*

May I ask what kind of Legal Immigrants?

I'll say this. What troubles me is the direction the current US policy is taking seems to be as follows: Have a porous border. Have laws determining who gets in and who doesn't. Have a border patrol. No one should be able to cross illegally. However, if they do, have water fountains, driver's licences, and free schooling ready for them once they cross. Not only that, every once in a while declare amnesty so any of them that have been here long enough doesn't have to worry about deportation.

I can't be the only person who sees a problem with this. This creates a situation where law-abiding folks from south of the border have a hard time, while those folks who know the kind of people that can provide a truck to smuggle them over the line are pretty much home free once they cross.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is intentional! Think about it. Proponents of big government need there to be more criminals. It justifies more police power, higher taxes, and less civil rights, justifying the proponents' power and increasing it. So they would want only the potential immigrants who have the criminal connections to know a guy with a truck. The hard-working, respectful potential immigrants wouldn't help to create a police state, so they have to jump through hoops.

All illegal immigration laws are just politics. We know we'll never prevent all illegal immigration, but it looks good to make a (half-hearted) effort. Alternatively, if you are trying to appeal to the legal members of whatever ethnic group, you can make yourself be seen as "soft" on illegal immigration, although the results are exactly the same. It's great politics... you can basically craft whatever image you want of yourself, and still get the cheap farm labor that keeps our food prices low. If we had to pay our unskilled farm laborers American wages and maintain other American labor practices, nobody would be able to afford any fruit at all, because California is the source of most of the nation's fruit, and California's farm economy depends on illegal workers. If we REALLY wanted to enforce our immigration laws, we could just send a SWAT team into any farm in California's Central Valley.

The only way to stop illegal immigration is to help make it so that illegal aliens have no reason to immigrate here in the first place by helping make their countries better. That doesn't mean we shouldn't enforce our immigration laws wherever we can, though.

It's that damn Green Lady's fault! I mean, she said, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." And she lied, or else she forgot the other part, which is "...so I can ostracize them, exploit their labor, and then deport them."

The immigration process is difficult and expensive. Not to mention that to become a citizen (which I realize is different from being legal) you have to be able to read English. But if we're not willing to stand by the words of the Statue of Liberty, maybe we should just make her stfu, because she's confusing people. Maybe, I don't know, add the word "quota" in there somewhere?

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but this thread reminded me of a story about why Canada's immigration policy is no better than the US :)

I work in an income tax office until April 30th (the deadline, for you guys it's the 15th), and about a month ago this family came in. They were wondering whether or not they should file their income taxes or not, because they were illegal immigrants. The government could deport them back to their native Hungary, where they would be persecuted for being gypsies.

We now return to our regularly scheduled debate.

attached is the article that appeared in papers across the U.S. (http://www.adn.com/24hour/front/story/1443239p-8810056c.html)

This reminds me of the situation in the South (re: African-Americans vs the powers that be). Will this policy "eliminate" the immigrant's coming to the U.S.? Unlikely, because time and time again, they try again.

Why is this such a big deal? Because the California Border Patrol can / will deport people who have Latino characteristics without a deportation hearing (denying them due process).

They can still claim asylum if they wish. Most don't and just agree to be dropped off in TJ (where they will promptly turn right back around).

This is the reason that in The Day After Tomorrow the Mexicans didn't let the white folks in. I feel that they had a reason for being treated as bad as they are now. SHAME ON YOU WHIT PEOPLE.........

Someone posted this on another forum and many replyed saying that the goverment should be getting rid of them because they hurt our economy and they take our jobs...etc. Someone also said that Mexico is a "shithole" and that the "shit" comes to us. You can read that HERE (http://www.emuasylum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21318&perpage=20&highlight=immigrants&pagenumber=1).

I was really pissed off at their immature and racist remarks so I would like to know what you guys think about this issue.

I would just like to say that Mexicans aren't the only people coming to the U.S.

I believe that Maddox says it best when it comes to illegal immigrant.
News flash: immigrants aren't taking anything from Americans. Companies like WalMart are giving jobs to them illegally. If WalMart paid a company to hire immigrants to do the job over Americans then there's probably a good reason for it. I'm sick and tired of lazy gluttonous Americans bitching about immigrants "taking" our jobs. It's not like they can literally come to America, ambush us in the parking lot and take our jobs.
(Whole article found here. (http://www.maddox.xmission.net/c.cgi?u=walmart))

Although I do believe that illegal immigrants aren't right, and should really go through the correct processes, them stealing our jobs is just bullshit.

I think you should go through the process to become a LEGAL citizen if you want in so bad. It cant be that bad can it?

Depending on what country you are from, yes, it can be. I personally don't think illegal immigration is the way to go, however, it is a very broad term, and I think it needs to be narrowed down (see #1 below)... I am going to speak about my situation personally for a moment now on two points regarding this subject:

1) My husband is from Saudi Arabia. He has lived in the USA most of his life, and his parents were here in the States studying, and he was here on a student visa, which expired after he was in college. Technically, he should have been shipped off back to Saudi Arabia, where he is so Americanized, he would be shunned and the religious police chased him, and people threw things at him (he has been over there a few times as a young adult to visit family, and this really has been the case). It didn't matter that he spent practically his entire life in the states, went thru the US public school system, passed the US citizenship test as a requirement to graduate, and wanted to be a contributing member of society - it was a technicality and he was considered an illegal immigrant - although he came to this country very legally. As far as someone sneaking into this country illegally, as a refugee of sorts, I think each individual case should be examined as to why before they are deported. Based on how the USA was founed, unless you are native american, all of our ancestors were immigrants at one point in time.

2) Becoming a US citizen - after 9/11, this is HELL, pure HELL. We got married out of love, and dated for 2 years prior to marriage. We decided to do a courthouse wedding because of the INS/citizenship issue, wanting to speed up the process. We were married on May 11, 2001. We went to a lawyer, paid over $1,000 to get the paperwork to INS, and they sat on it. Did not look at it.... until September 19, 2001. One week after the attacks. My husband is from a "hostile country" and he is now treated like a criminal, having to be on tracking logs like a child molestor and needs to tell the government every time he moves, every time he switches jobs, and has to be photographed and fingerprinted annually. They are only doing this to the MALE immigrants from certain countries, not the female.

It is now June 2004 - has he gotten his greencard yet? Nope. It has been 3 years. His application has been denied a few times for very trivial, unfounded reasons, and we pay thousands of dollars to appeal and to also renew his work visa. And, will he become a citizen with that? Nope. He has to wait 5 years after his greencard to take the same citizenship test again that he took as a teenager to pass high school.

How does this affect me? It sucks. Basically, I am at the mercy of the government to decide if I am allowed to be married to my husband. If we were to divorce due to our own issues, that is one thing, but I have started to loose faith in the US gov't over this. They have the power to take him away from me, which then will force me to go to Saudi Arabia with him, because I am married to him for him, not for his greencard, and where he goes, I go. In Saudi Arabia, I will be shunned by his family, shunned by the public, unable to drive, unable to hold a job, and will probably be stoned. My husband won't be in a much better situation.

so, maybe this post goes off topic a bit, but given our ordeal, I can see why some people get so discouraged that they hide out and remain illegal immigrants.

They can still claim asylum if they wish. Most don't and just agree to be dropped off in TJ (where they will promptly turn right back around).

Sorry for the double post, but my last one is moderated, and not showing so I can edit it yet, and I really meant to address this comment... doh!

Not everyone can claim asylum. It is very tough and you have a lot of red tape to go thru. If you read my ordeal (when it posts), my husband was not eligible for asylum, and he WILL be hurt if he goes back to his native country. We tried this in one of our appeals.

But wait... there's more.

Gov. Schwarzenegger proposed allowing illegal immigrants get drivers licenses... but with distinguishing marks that denote their immigration status. click here for story (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896&ncid=1896&e=2&u=/nm/20040623/us_nm/politics_california_licenses_dc_1)

Two ideas of thinking come to mind...

If their illegal, why are they being granted licenses if the california border patrol will just round them up and deport them later?

Second. Why not take President's suggestion and allow amnesty for those already in the country and stop worrying about "marks denoting illegal immigration status"?

But wait... there's more.

Gov. Schwarzenegger proposed allowing illegal immigrants get drivers licenses... but with distinguishing marks that denote their immigration status. click here for story (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896&ncid=1896&e=2&u=/nm/20040623/us_nm/politics_california_licenses_dc_1)

Two ideas of thinking come to mind...

If their illegal, why are they being granted licenses if the california border patrol will just round them up and deport them later?

Second. Why not take President's suggestion and allow amnesty for those already in the country and stop worrying about "marks denoting illegal immigration status"?

Really? I did not know that about Schwarzenegger - very valid point. I would be leery of it.

And amnesty - would be a nice concept, but is not gonna happen anytime soon, especially after 9/11..... the laws have gotten way more stricter to the point of just outrageous, not the other way.

the link doesnt work for me and i live in a front city and almost everywhere saw people from other countries of the south just with 2 galons of water a bag and they try to cross the river oo

and like 3 times when im back from el centro i saw the border patrol getting bodies from the river aaargh disturbing
and i think a lot of people go expecting other thing like for example somebody was able to pass and call to his family and tolls them that everything its allright and its getting money and his family tell other family and it goes bigger but he only tells the "nice part" he didnt toll his luck crossing yuma or modify it and the people getting hope of that legend

I am posting in this dead thread for one reason and one reason only:

U.S. House Bill 4437, the Border Protection, Antiterrorism and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005

Long story short, this bill would make illegal immigrants felons in this country, as well as

Under the proposed law, employers, priests, doctors, social workers or charity volunteers - anyone who offers assistance to an illegal immigrant - could face criminal penalties of up to five years in prison.

EDIT: Link didn't work, so here's the article:

February 14, 2006
Section: News
Page: A1, A2

Immigrants in Sussex rally against House bill
Federal measure would turn illegals into felons

The News Journal

GEORGETOWN - Spanish-speaking immigrants want to show Delaware's business and government leaders how much they contribute to the economy.

So today, many won't show up for work, participating instead in a 24-hour regional event called "A Day Without an Immigrant."

Locally, immigrants will gather at The Circle in Georgetown to rally against an immigration-reform bill in Congress that could, in essence, convert 11 million illegal workers into aggravated felons. Employers who hire them or social service outreach groups who provide them aid would be treated as "alien" smugglers.

"If the law is passed, everyone is in trouble," said the Rev. Rene Knight, an organizer of the Georgetown event.

An estimated 1,000 workers will march toward The Circle at noon today for what is described as a peaceful demonstration. Speakers will plead with employers and other supporters of immigrants to stop U.S. House Bill 4437, the Border Protection, Antiterrorism and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005.

"Most of our immigrants don't have a voice or a vote. We need the employers who understand their impact on the daily economy to write to their representatives in Congress," Knight said.

Delmarva's poultry processors - Perdue Farms Inc., Mountaire Farms of Delmarva and Allen's Family Foods - are the biggest employers of immigrants in Sussex County. Organizers had hoped that they would opt to close their plants for a day rather than operate with a skeleton staff.

But one poultry plant representative said Monday that's unlikely.

"We have to continue to move birds. It's not like an assembly line for cars that you can shut down. Birds keep arriving," said Roger Marino, a Mountaire spokesman.

Under the proposed law, employers, priests, doctors, social workers or charity volunteers - anyone who offers assistance to an illegal immigrant - could face criminal penalties of up to five years in prison.

The measure passed the House, but faces a number of competing bills in the Senate. Even if the Senate takes up the House bill when it begins debate on immigration reform this spring, the harsher provisions may be stripped out or softened.

U.S. Rep. Mike Castle, R-Del., voted for the House border security bill, but said workers here now should be offered a chance to stay and work legally.

"While most of the illegal immigrants who enter the United States do so for the purpose of finding work and making a better life, there are also those looking to take advantage of our porous borders to engage in criminal activities," Castle said in a statement Monday, explaining his support for the bill.

But beyond securing the borders, Castle said, the nation needs to develop "a realistic strategy for managing the large number of illegal immigrants who are already living and working in our communities."

A spokesman for Sen. Tom Carper, D-Del., said the senator has reservations about the border security bill.

"The bill places a huge burden on businesses," which would have to check the backgrounds of all their workers, not just new hires, said Carper spokesman Bill Ghent. "There's also concern that some of the language in the bill could hinder charities and churches that are trying to help out immigrants and their families."

Carper also was concerned that the bill would strip immigrants' right to due process.

A Day Without an Immigrant events are scheduled for cities and towns throughout Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Delaware.

The event takes its name from the 2004 movie "A Day Without a Mexican," in which Latinos mysteriously disappear in a cloud that envelops California, leaving the remaining two-thirds of the population disoriented and the economy in shambles.

One of the last times that Sussex County immigrant workers united in numbers for immigration reform was in January 1998. Some 500 Guatemalan workers boarded nine buses that traveled from Georgetown to Washington, where they rallied in front of the Capitol and the White House to petition for permanent resident status.

In the meantime, their white-collar supervisors back at the poultry plants spent the day hanging chickens and cleaning their parts.

Kevin Andrade, director and conductor of Spanish programming on WGMD radio, said his lines rang nonstop Sunday as workers caught wind of the legislation and the upcoming work stoppage.

He typically receives 50 calls during his three-hour Sunday show, called HOLA-FM, but this week he tallied 700 calls.

"We love this country. We want to work here, and we want to pay our taxes so that we can see the economy grow," he said. "These types of bills make our dreams unattainable."

Washington Bureau reporter Jennifer Brooks contributed to this article.

Someone posted this on another forum and many replyed saying that the goverment should be getting rid of them because they hurt our economy and they take our jobs...etc. Someone also said that Mexico is a "shithole" and that the "shit" comes to us. You can read that HERE (http://www.emuasylum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21318&perpage=20&highlight=immigrants&pagenumber=1).

I was really pissed off at their immature and racist remarks so I would like to know what you guys think about this issue.

I would just like to say that Mexicans aren't the only people coming to the U.S.

Those people are ignorant. They say that because they're obviously racist. And if they aren't, they need to shut up and stop talking trash here. Immigrants? They don't take our jobs. I understand why they're coming here illegally. They want freedom. They want freedom of speech, to say something without being jailed or killed. They want to be educated. They want jobs. People from different countries come here for that and countries have different laws. They come because they want to be FREE. For those people making those racist remarks. Maybe they want to be able to walk down the street without getting beat up or killed for your jewelry or whatever as they do in my country. I know that some of them are coming here just for the hell of it mostly for jobs. But if someone has a remark like that to say, they shouldn't say it at all. It deeply hurts me for people like them to be saying all that stuff.

Found some more articles on this.

Maryland considering making English official language
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-te.md.immigration05mar05,1,6313602.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-illegal-immigration,0,1221534.story

The interesting thing about the 2nd article is that it states that illegal immigrants stay longer because the border is so hard to cross.

immigrants will always be a part of our economic makeup in america. illegal or otherwise. someone said that each case should be looked at individually; that would be nice, but i don't think that it's going to happen. obtaining a green card in the us is difficult; the numbers are too great to get everyone that wants one a legal card, so people go about working illegally.

have we forgotten about the americans that flee illegally to mexico and other countries? maybe not as many as are coming here, but plenty run from the law to another country, hoping to hide out. i was watching oprah yesterday, and a child molester had been found in a city in mexico, and a mexican coworker turned him in. when americans are there, they take the jobs in the countries that they're in, just as illegally as the immigrants here do. immigrants into the us are not going to take the jobs from americans. i don't know how many people i graduated with would work on a cow farm, shoveling manure and milking cows for substantially less than minimum wage. yet these immigrants, regardless of where they're from, will take the job, because it's a job, and it's in the us; whereas some americans would rather petition the government for food stamps than work 3 or 4 jobs to make ends meet. i'm not saying that all americans are lazy and would rather have the government support them. i know americans that work 3 and 4 jobs, too. food stamps/government support are not bad things; they just need to be monitored better to make sure that they aren't being abused. but that's a whole other debate.

What gets me is the fact that, being a military brat, I used to live overseas, and it was MANDATORY to learn the native language, up until middle school. Here, however, they have "ESOL" classes and they make everything so much easier on the kids who "don't understand"; they cut them slack and then we've got double the difficulties graduating while they just have to take a few easier classes.
It isn't fair.
It's not impossible to get a freakin' green card, and they should just do it already.
However, in instances such as Cuba, I think that America should give every illegal immigrant a 30 day period to become "legal". Then, if the immigrants are still illegal, they had a warning, they had an opportunity, and they threw it away, so they should be sent home.
We shouldn't have to deal with them as customer service people, either, because if you can't speak English, how the crap are you going to help someone?

I live in a town (Austin, Minnesota, also popularly called "Spamtown USA" (we are the home of Hormel foods and it's number 1 product: Spam... we even have a spam museum...) anyways, since the past decade so many mexican people have immigrated here, so much that caucasion people are soon going to be a minority here. The reason is because of Hormel Foods, and their manufacturing co. Quality Pork Processors (QPP), which has been the number one place to hire legal, and yes, illegal residents. I had a friend who worked at QPP and he said there would always be people (illegal residents) who would work with him, then suddenly disspear, only to re-appear months later with a new name. I guess all of it really doesn't bother me, but the part that pisses me off is the fact that so many jobs are being taken by people who are not even supposed to be here. Also a huge factor in my dissapointment would have to be the way these immegrants are treated. QPP is so afraid of being sued for racism that they treat their illegal immigrants (and yes, legal immigrants) as if they are kings. My friend said that if a white man were to stab somebody, they would be fired. But if a mexican were to do it, they would be suspended with pay, because of the company's fear of a racial storm in the courts.
I guess another problem would have to be the violence. I do not want to sound racist, pointing fingers at the mexican population and blaming them for violence. But the fact is, that in the past few years there has been a rising number in deaths and injuries because of stabbings, and the attacker is always an immigrant, most of the time they are found to be illegal immigrants. There is also a rising in gang culture. I do not know much about gangs (except for the bad things the media has always let us know about), so I guess I do not have much to say about that. Who says gangs can't be good? IDK...

I guess all of it really doesn't bother me, but the part that pisses me off is the fact that so many jobs are being taken by people who are not even supposed to be here
The illegal immigrants dont TAKE the jobs. The company GIVES the jobs to the illegal immigrants. You cant just -take- the job. So I think as far as "job taking" goes, that is the company's fault, and not the illegal immigrant(s). Face it- the illegal immigrants, in the company's eyes, works harder for less money. Bingo, you're hired. I dont know the ins and outs of all the immigration restrictions and laws, but a reason they come is ebcause they will work and get hired. And who hires them? Companies in the USA. Despite all this "we dont want immigrants" stuff, and people blaming the immigrants- its really the companies that hire the immigrants that are just inviting more and more in. One cannot _take_ a job. A company gives it to you.

The illegal immigrants dont TAKE the jobs. The company GIVES the jobs to the illegal immigrants. You cant just -take- the job. So I think as far as "job taking" goes, that is the company's fault, and not the illegal immigrant(s).

There was talk of legislation that would mandate companies to pay illegal immigrants the same wages as authorized workers. Companies use illegal immigrants so they can pay them less off the books. If they are required to give them the same wage (and I have no idea how they would enforce it), then the incentive to hire illegal laborers is lost for the company.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/immigrant.gif

The problem is, they ARE coming here. Once they are here, what do we do. Preventing illegal border crossings is step 1. Step 2 is making sure that those who come here illegally are not driven to a life of crime.

Just on observation.

They had ariel shots of some 500,000 illegals protesting. Why did we spend tax dollars to block off traffic, and not use that money towards bussing them back to Mexico? :confused:

My take: The US has come to accept illegals by not taking common sense approach to capture and return them.

YEah, they were protesting all over LA, I know it was for good intentions but it was still stupid.

What confused me was that they were waving Mexican flags. The flag of the same country they fled to come this horrible country. :rolleyes:
Why don't they just go back, and then they wouldnt need to be protest our trying to enforce immigration.

What confused me was that they were waving Mexican flags. The flag of the same country they fled to come this horrible country. :rolleyes:
Why don't they just go back, and then they wouldnt need to be protest our trying to enforce immigration.

There's a difference between leaving a country because of the lack of opportunities and leaving because you hate it there. Senses of nationalism don't die just because you leave.

What confused me was that they were waving Mexican flags. The flag of the same country they fled to come this horrible country. :rolleyes:

that's what i was thinking while watching them protest. how is it going to help their cause:rolleyes:

YEah, they were protesting all over LA, I know it was for good intentions but it was still stupid.
I bet you anything just a bunch of hispanics and chicano-pride people were just there for the sake of it. Oh, im Mexican, so uh... hear the cause my illegal alien parents are fighting for! Watch my flag wave! America = Racists! In waht context do you just raise your ethnic home country's flag in the middle of striking and protesting in the name of illegal immigrant workforce rights? You just dont.

...Well Iīm mexican too, i think, be inmigrant is bad, yeah but work in US isnīt, the US win 300 millions dolars at day, only with the work of illegal immigrant people. The day of protest...US lost that money...now imagine that in a month of protest...

The day of protest...US lost that money...now imagine that in a month of protest...
The issue isnt over, though, our appreciation of alien workers. We know that alien Mexicans get hired because they work for lesser money. But, hard work wont earn you citizenship or legal worker benefits and protection. So its not that we dont appreciate or know that theres 10 million working aliens in the US.

I have something to add, so I'll post it here. It's about the right place, anyway.



Over the period for the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne, around 15 Serre Leone athletes vanished. When they were captured, with most handing themselves in, they said they wanted to stay in Australia, because they were afraid to go back to their war torn countries. The men showed scars they had, on their chests and knees. They are afraid of being killed if they return, and afraid for their families if they do not go back. The female athletes face female circumsicion when they return to their homelands. All have applied for asylum, and have two weeks in the country to have their cases heard.

I really worry about what will happen to these poor people if they return. I hope they are able to stay here in Australia, we should not send these people back to have their genitals sliced off.

On one hand, we'd be helping these very grateful people, but on the other, if we allow them to stay, other people from other countries may come to our country and expect us to give them asylum also, and it just doesn't work that way.

I don't know if they'll be able to stay, but with Amanda Vanstone as Immigration Minister, their chances are next to nothing, because that woman has a heart of lard. (Literally)

Hopefully these people can stay here, I think most Australians would love to have them.

core']they make everything so much easier on the kids who "don't understand"; they cut them slack and then we've got double the difficulties graduating while they just have to take a few easier classes.
It isn't fair.

*cough*NOCHILDLEFTBEHIND*cough*:mad:


I'm fed up with this whole immigrant protesting. It's a law to help enforce something that is already illegal. ILLEGAL!!!! Long-story short: if an immigrant has come here illegally (with the exception of asylum cases like the previous post) then you DO NOT BELONG HERE. It's all well and good if someone wants to come here, but we have rules set down about these things. You follow the rules, you go through the paperwork, and you earn your way here.

One of my many issues with illegal immigrants is the funds we have to spend on them to help them (criminals) out. We spend sooo much money on legal immigrants as it is (for example, it is written on applications for food stamps and such that if you are an immigrant you automatically qualify), and it is ridiculous that they knowingly come here against the law, and we are still letting them benefit from it.

about 58 percent of those undocumented workers are employed and of that number, over half are paying federal taxes. But the revenue is not enough to offset the drain on the federal budget in the form of services including $2.5 billion in Medicaid costs, $2.2 billion for health care for the uninsured, and $1.9 billion for food stamps
full article here (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/27/politics/main1440202.shtml?CMP=ILC-SearchStories)
Yes, that's right. We could be curing AIDS, putting more money towards education, working on technology that is environmentally friendly....but we pay $6.6 BILLION to take care of criminals.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/31/opinion/main1459946.shtml?CMP=ILC-SearchStories

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/Mexicos_Glass_House.pdf

Lots of interesting articles on immigration at Townhall.com Here's an older one:

How does Mexico treat its illegals?
Apr 6, 2006
by Larry Elder


"We can't infringe upon the right of people to move freely within our territory," said Mexican President Vicente Fox during President George W. Bush's recent visit. Earlier, Fox said he stood by the statement he previously made to the BBC: "I dare say that in 10 years, the U.S. will be begging, will be pleading with Mexico to send it workers."
Does Mexico practice what it preaches?

First, Mexico put its military and police forces on its porous, zigzagged, mountainous, crime-ridden southern border with Guatemala. Chiapas -- the South Carolina-sized southern Mexican state that shares the longest border with Guatemala -- is Mexico's poorest, most illiterate state. About Chiapas, one United Nations human rights commissioner said, "Mexico is one of the countries where illegal immigrants are highly vulnerable to human rights violations and become victims of degrading sexual exploitation and slavery-like practices, and are denied access to education and health care."

Typically, when Mexican authorities catch illegal aliens, they place them overnight in a detention center, then bus or fly them back to their country of origin. Despite the fact that Mexico militarized its border and deported 203,128 illegal immigrants in 2004, many illegals get through by bribing corrupt military and police.

Do Mexicans appreciate the way America has allowed so many poor, Mexican illegals to enter the United States? No. According to a recent Zogby poll, 73 percent of Mexicans call Americans "racist"! When asked whether the United States' wealth comes from freedom and "plenty of opportunity to work," 70 percent of Americans agreed, while only 22 percent of Mexicans agreed. Sixty-two percent of Mexicans said America became wealthy because "it exploits others' wealth."

While Americans, according to the poll, see Mexicans as hard-working (78 percent), Mexicans think of Americans as racist, intolerant and not very hard-working.

Racist?

Mexico should look in the mirror. According to the Houston Chronicle's Rachel Graves, around the turn of the 17th century, Mexico imported more African slaves than anywhere else in the New World. As a result, tens of thousands of blacks (no one knows for sure -- the Mexican census does not recognize them) live in Mexico, mostly in destitute villages in its poorest states. An estimated 30,000 to 40,000 blacks live in Costa Chica.

How do they fare? According to the Houston Chronicle, many are illiterate, struggling to get a decent education for their children from government schools. One Costa Chica missionary says, "The kids here are considered by their teachers to be largely unteachable." When stopped by the police, Mexican blacks are often instructed to sing the Mexican national anthem to prove their citizenship!

If so many Mexicans consider Americans racist, why do polls show that nearly half of Mexico's inhabitants say that their lives would improve if they could work here illegally?

Intolerant?

America legally accepts about one million immigrants per year, with perhaps as many as 12 million people living here illegally, about half of whom come from Mexico. Many estimate that 500,000 or more people enter the country illegally every year. California Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante is Hispanic. So is the man who holds the powerful position of speaker of the California Assembly. Los Angeles, America's second-largest city, has a Hispanic mayor, and of the 54 members of California's congressional delegation, nine are Hispanic. The former governor of California once proposed granting driver's licenses to illegals. And in California, under some circumstances, an illegal alien can apply for the cheaper in-state college tuition. Many predict the Hispanic governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson, former Clinton Cabinet member, will run for president.

Not very hard-working?

According to the International Labor Organization, Americans work more than almost anybody in the developed world, including Japan. The average American worked 1,824 hours in 2004, compared with the Spanish at 1,799 and the French at 1,441 hours. The Dutch put in even less -- working 25 percent fewer hours than Americans.

President Bush, against the wishes of many in his own party as well of half of all Americans, makes the reasonable case for a guest worker program that would allow or provide some sort of legal status for those living here illegally. Latino "activists" do that cause harm by staging protests and waving the Mexican flag and demanding their "rights." For example, Juan Jose Gutierrez of Latino Movement USA says, "We think that the right thing to do is to grant full rights, full equality, under the laws in the Constitution of the United States, to all immigrants, period."

Americans raise legitimate concerns about the competition illegals pose to unskilled labor, and that illegals cut in front of people already waiting in line to get in the country legally. Americans resent expenditures for illegals on education and health care, and problems posed by some who commit additional crime in America. Illegals' attitude of entitlement helps to explain the growing anger Americans feel toward illegal aliens. Students leaving high schools, waving Mexican flags and chanting "Si se puede" do President Bush -- and their "cause" -- no favor.

Larry Elder is an accomplished attorney, radio personality, syndicated columnist, best-selling author and host of daytime television's The Larry Elder Show

Copyright Đ 2006 Townhall.com

I honestly am for this bill. I dont hate on anyone but i think that this bill is a good thing.

I honestly am for this bill. I dont hate on anyone but i think that this bill is a good thing.

May I ask why you support this? You're one of the few that I've found that's spoken in favor of this, and I'm curious as to your reasons.

How does Mexico treat its illegals?


Thanks for that article. I was discussing this with people at my job. I thought immigrants would be in favor of this bill, yet, they were the most against it. They feel that they (or their parents) worked their asses off to save money and apply for entry to this country. Those who do not go through the proper channels do not deserve to be here.

Futhermore, let's look at how other countries treat their illegals. My coworker is from the Dominican Republic. Do you know what they do to the Haitians trying to enter their land illegally? Shoot them. Do you know what Mexicans do to Gutemalans (or people from other other South Americans countries)they catch illegally crossing the border? Well, aside from what Elias' article metioned, shooting them on site is also common practice. So, all these people that come to this country illegally are the first to scream that their rights are being violated, but as far as I am concerned they don't have any rights because they have not earned them. And the countries they come from have no tolerance at all for others.

You have no right to complain when you are getting a free ride.

I strongly believe if you are going to live in this country then you need to do it legally. My mother is a Canadian born citizen although she spent her entire life in the US. She went thru the channels as one should in order to be able to be an US citizen.They were alot less major than what illegals have to do now but accomplished nevertheless. Had she not done that, she would be here ILLEGALLY.So would my Grandma H., and 3 of my aunts- all Canadian born.

In fact when I was 11 we were delayed at US/Canada border patrol for 6 freaking hours on the Canadian side because when they asked her if she was born in the US she said "no,I was born in Canada". Then of course they asked if she was here on a Visa, to which she also replied "no, I've lived here my entire life". She did not have her little card in her purse that proclaimed her a naturalized citizen if you can imagine so there was alot of red tape to get thru that afternoon. It happens.We honestly thought they were planning on keeping her. It was pretty scary for little kids to go thru.Granted this is nothing like dealing with illegals who jump the border, but it is a good example that being here legally is necessary.

Anyway, I think it is a slap in the face to this country and any country for that matter that people think they can live there illegally.

First off,except in the case of asylum,I don't think they should be given welfare benefits unless they are "promisery" steps gone thru to guarantee they become legal citizens.Then after that has been established they have a set amount of time to obtain their citizenship.If they fail to complete these conditions they will be sent back,period.

Some of the conditions I feel should be fulfilled:

A crash course in being American 101.Life skills you need to succeed in this country ie, being able to name the president,familiar with history of our country, 8th grade math ability.

English as a second language should be mandatory.The first year of the program they need to at least be able to read it and write it at a grade school level. Every year until their citizenship process is completed a new level of the English language will be completed. There are alot of people in this country who have been here their entire lives that cannot get jobs because they don't speak another language, mainly Spanish. If a person wants to become a citizen of an English as the primary language country they should speak it, or at least understand enough of it to work around those who do not speak a second language.

Training programs that offer skills and on the job training upon agreeing to the promisery conditions. Alot of states already have this implemented but it is available to all aid recipients, if you are not willing to become a legal citizen you WILL NOT receive valuable secondary skills that others must pay for.

Family planning. While the family(or individual) is trying to get itself established as citizens proper steps need to be taken that babies are not popping out right and left. Granted nothing is 100% but education helps.This may sound harsh but how is someone supposed to stop using the system as a crutch when they are constantly getting pregnant? This should actually apply to anyone who is receiving gov't assistance,but that is an entirely different subject.

The children should be taught English as well, preferrably before being school aged. This will make the transistion into a English based classroom much easier.

Upon completion of citizenship,job incentives could be offered to ensure people maintain working their new jobs and not fall back on the welfare system.

Just a few ideas....

I found this on another board.

MR. PRESIDENT, I'M HEADED TO MEXICO

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended
family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to
walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to
make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports,
immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things
the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox,
that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be
expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I
might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of
the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower
down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and
lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get
easy access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any
effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the
memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all
police officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag
decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I
do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any
taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely
nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain
I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these
things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am
sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask
him nicely.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

They say they are marching for their rights. What rights?

Tell me just what rights these demonstrators are marching for today? The right to cross our borders illegally? The right to remain in this country illegally? The right to work here illegally? The right to stay here illegally? I don't have a "civil right" to stay somewhere I'm not legally allowed to. Why should it be assumed for them? Many of my ancestors were legal immigrants here and gained citizenship and decent lives by following the LAWS and contributing to rather than sucking dry the economy. So there might be a little inflation if they get deported. We can survive that. What we can't survive is such a substantial group of illegal immigrants who have no desire or intentions to assimilate into our society or culture trying to dictate our rule of law into non-existence through mob rule.

What's going on is no different from the Saxon invasion of England; the barbarian invasions of Rome; etc. etc. etc. all through history. Its a little more peaceful - for now. That's all.

In Mexico the magazines talk about "reconquering" Los Angeles, Dallas, and many other Southwestern US cities. Many of the illegal immigrants consider themselves to be "reconquistadores".

The situation is what it is, though we continue to call them "undocumented" workers and bury our heads in the sand. We ought to remember that the Statue of Liberty welcomes LEGAL immigrants to this great nation that was built by and for lawabiding CITIZENS. This nation wasn't built on the principle of mob rule. So what if all 11 Million of them take to the streets? That doesn't mean they trump our laws does it?

I say its time to GET CITIZENSHIP, GET LEGAL OR GET OUT! No Amnesty!

Oh, and build that f*****g wall Georgie! Quit being such a PUShover stoolie for the corporations wanting slave labor.

Just thought I would throw this out to stir things up a bit. Were the spainards and the later settlers technically illegal immigrants? Pretty sure the Native Americans feel that way. Its all relative.

Family planning. While the family(or individual) is trying to get itself established as citizens proper steps need to be taken that babies are not popping out right and left. Granted nothing is 100% but education helps.This may sound harsh but how is someone supposed to stop using the system as a crutch when they are constantly getting pregnant?

I stumbled upon an interesting article. Note the stats I highlighted.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060410/pl_afp/usimmigration_060410210140;_ylt=AvsYbNfd4XAMW4CvUA EqcQRQuk0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
Lawmaker calls for end in US to 'birthright citizenship'

Republican Representative JD Hayworth said Congress should consider legislation that would reinterpret the 14th Amendment, which currently is seen as granting US citizenship to anyone born on US soil.

"The fact is, the 14th Amendment was passed and ratified by the states to guarantee citizenship for freed slaves, not the children of foreigners, and we need to take a realistic look at the notion of birthright citizenship," Hayworth told NBC television on Sunday.

The issue of US citizenship has become a focal point of the current raging immigration reform debate, since many undocumented workers are raising children born in the United States and who enjoy US citizenship.

Immigration officials estimate that in Los Angeles, for example, roughly one-half of all births are to illegal immigrants.

The nonprofit Center for Immigration Studies estimates that 383,000 children are born each year to illegal alien mothers, accounting for nearly 10 percent of all births in the United States.

Hayworth's call for an end to birthright citizen, along with more stringent border enforcement generally, is a central argument in his book, "Whatever It Takes," published earlier this year.

"I cannot agree with the president's approach to illegal immigration," Hayworth writes in the book.

"We must not surrender to the illegal invasion of our country. A guest worker plan is unfair to American workers and would lead to a permanent underclass of workers separated from the rest of Americans by language, culture and income," he wrote.

The 14th amendment of the US Constitution states that: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

I stumbled upon an interesting article. Note the stats I highlighted.

Here is my position regarding Anchor Babies (may now be an obsolete thread)
http://www.evboard.com/showthread.php?t=29332&highlight=anchor+babies

But to rehash. I am opposed to repealing or rewording the 14th amendment. We do not need to go around stripping babies of this right. Are they less human that anglo-saxon suburbanites? Or the decendents of the African American slaves? My position is no.

--

They say they are marching for their rights. What rights? They do have certain "Inalienable rights endowed by their creator". If a legal citizen kills someone who's here illegally, the legal citizen stands trial just like everybody else. But if they're not killed, however, (raped, mugged, etc) a large portion of these incidents go unreported. This has happened too many times here in Memphis, and it makes me nausious. Putting people on a road to legal citizenship will be a good first step towards ending such injustice.

--
Some other points...

About the house version of the bill: want to label them Felons? What will that mean? Let's see how well a caravan of army busses coming to haul off mothers, daughters, fathers & toddlers play out in regards to public relations. Also, the U.S. prision population is about 1-2 million. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to throw these 12-14 million illegal fellons in prison? And do people really need to have a government interfere with religious charity work? That outcome would not sit very well at all.

On the other hand, even the most vocal opponents are complacent about the illegal immigration. Why aren't there hoards of people going around construction sites... reporting all the spanish-speaking to the INS hotline? Or mexican restaurants? Or hotel service people? Etc? I guess they don't want to be seen as racist, etc.

This issue is about as a hot potato as the 1960's civil rights movement. So far they're peaceful demonstrations. And their numbers were most apparent during the demonstrations yesterday. What's so wrong w/ that?

The problem with his thinking is that you cant go by what the intent was, you have to go by what the amendment actually says. It doesnt say citizenship for all freed slaves children born in the U.S. it says anyone born in the U.S.

Also, the U.S. prision population is about 1-2 million. Are you willing to pay the extra taxes to throw these 12-14 million illegal fellons in prison?

As I pointed out in a previous post, $6.6 billion of the taxes we pay are already being spent on illegal immigrants. Could the cost to deport them be as high?

As I pointed out in a previous post, $6.6 billion of the taxes we pay are already being spent on illegal immigrants. Could the cost to deport them be as high?

I had to dig for the information, but the true number is a best guess.

For example, This 2005 Study (in PDF) (http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/cf/%7BE9245FE4-9A2B-43C7-A521-5D6FF2E06E03%7D/DEPORTING_THE_UNDOCUMENTED.PDF) estimate is $41 billion to remove them all.

Another more recent article found on the Associated Press (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060407/ap_on_re_us/immigration_mass_deportation_1) suggests the tab is $215 Billion. The study assumed that a crackdown would prompt a quarter of the nation's illegal immigrants to leave voluntarily, leaving 9 million men, women and children to deport.

"I think a lot of people are making emotional calls on this issue without thinking through the cost to taxpayers," said study author Rajeev Goyle, a lecturer at Wichita State University. "It would be an unbearable cost that would bankrupt the treasury. It would cost more annually than the entire budget of the Department of Homeland Security, twice that of the annual cost of the war in Iraq."


The answer is probably yes. And whether it's $41 billion or $215 billion to 'get rid of them all', there will still be substantial perpetual costs associated with keeping them all out... even if there is a 20 foot high wall constructed
from Brownsville to San Diego.

Giving them a path to legal citizenship would focus our billions toward other more imporant problems... like true Homeland Security.

how many amercans are real amercans 1% - Indian's
outher 99% are from europ asia and africa
maby need to rename it from united states of america to united states of immigrants :)

There is a difference between immigration and invasion. The situation here with Mexican and Latin American illegal immigrants exemplifies that difference. We are all immigrants or descendants of immigrants here in the US. The only other option is we are invaders (my term for illegal immigrants). My grandmother was a "native american" which means I share that ancestry as well, so I get to say this: even "native americans" were immigrants/invaders at some point in time. I'm sure the Byzantines would have said the same of the Bulgars, right?

My point? As I have stated elswhere, but merits repetition, I (and probably most Americans) don't have a problem with immigration. In fact I welcome it. It is a cornerstone and strength of our nation. However, we are a nation of laws and those who come here should respect and obey our laws or otherwise be unwelcome. We welcome here to be part of us and follow the same rules. We don't, and shouldn't, welcome them here to tell us what to do and to tell us what they will and won't do themselves.

There is a difference between immigration and invasion. The situation here with Mexican and Latin American illegal immigrants exemplifies that difference. We are all immigrants or descendants of immigrants here in the US. The only other option is we are invaders (my term for illegal immigrants). My grandmother was a "native american" which means I share that ancestry as well, so I get to say this: even "native americans" were immigrants/invaders at some point in time. I'm sure the Byzantines would have said the same of the Bulgars, right?

lol the Byzantines can't say the same for bulgars
do you know how old is my nation? no?
exactly 1325 years
my nation is one of the old in the europ and the world
the byzantines are the immigrants/invaders in this case not bulgars

Ah, my friend. A bit of topic, but nevertheless:

The Bulgars invaded Byzantine territory in 545 AD and over the course of the next 100 years or so carved out a nice little domain for themselves. They were invaders. It was over three hundred years later that the Byzantines became the invaders, defeating Tsar Samuil's army at the Battle of Kleidon in 1005 AD.

So you see, I feel the same way about a re-invasion (peaceful or not) of my country as you do about the reinvasion of yours 1000 years ago. After your countrymen had lived there for a few hundred years, they definitely did consider it to be THEIR country. Are you getting my point yet? Or do we need to talk of the Turks? ;)

bro whear you learn this tell me :confused:
_________________________________________

why immigrants are problem for the Amercans
i dount have problem with the immigrants in my country
evry year i go on camp from red cross whit immigrants
most ppl there are from avganistan iraq kamboja
if you never have a contact with them you cant
know for why they immigrate
http://www.redcross.bg/manage/pictures/refugee.jpg

bro whear you learn this tell me :confused:
_________________________________________

why immigrants are problem for the Amercans
i dount have problem with the immigrants in my country
evry year i go on camp from red cross whit immigrants
most ppl there are from avganistan iraq kamboja
if you never have a contact with them you cant
know for why they immigrate
http://www.redcross.bg/manage/pictures/refugee.jpg

It's called history.

And please don't speak of America as an individual, it's a little offensive.

And most of the ones I know have no problem with immigrants. But there is a HUGE difference between that and someone forcing their way into the country illegally.

The problem with changing the law is that you would have to change our definiton of what a citizen is, basically who is American and who is not. That can be very dangerous, because it can lead to nationalism(which is basically the root of this issue), and while nationalism isnt necessarily a bad thing, it can be if taken too far. Nationalism can lead to discrimination, persecution, and in extreme cases genocide.

Its amazing how one small idea such as immigration and the ideal of citizenship can lead to something like genocide, but it has happened. Germany and Turkey but are examples of using persecution and genocide to embolden their ideals of nationalism and citizenship.

This is a topic I feel very strongly about. I feel for the people who want to come to America because of opportunities, but I think they should try to get here legally. It's not up to us to try to save the world. If all the people who wanted to come here because of opportunity could, our country would become completely overcrowded. We have problems of our own we need to take care of first. I'm not against immigration at all, as long as it's legal. It's not fair to Americans who are required to pay for the illegals; our taxes go towards paying for people (for the most part) who broke laws. States like California spend billions of dollars each year in ESL classes due to the illegal immigration.

Its getting a little out of hand over here in Southern California.

My mom is the manager of the Coca Cola Company in my county. So she like controls if the soda's get put up in the stores.She was told to tell all her workers to stay out of this town, Oxnard. That it could be really dangerous for herself and workers. The town is having this big rally on Monday.

The I dont know what they are called, "Immigrant Police" is that the right word? Well that already have been deporting people back. They were in Lancaster, and Palmdale, Oxnard, & in my town today.

The Kids at the high school are getting too rowdy for this. More than half of the percent of students at my school are mexican & with this whole thing going on your being treated bad. Im Half White and half Mexican but i was raised by like the American way, I didnt do anything of Mexican heritage. Not because my family is racist or anything but they didnt feel like i wanted to. And today i was being called a "Cracker" and stuff like that. I mean you kinda tell im mexican but you can also tell im white. Its not like it offended me or anything im like ok whatever. Like in my school everyone calls everyone names like "Whore" and all that an no one minds or anything so it didnt bother me. And with the monday approaching all of the students who are against this law are gonna make a chain around the high school so no students can get in or out.

Geez its getting crazy.

Hi:

I have travelled to the U.S two time legally, I'm a Latin Person.
Without Offense you simply can't deport so many immigrants, because in U.S wherever you see, you see an immigrant and not only latin people, you see Asian, European and more.

U.S is a very beautiful place, I loved It, but in my opinion you can't do that because the Immigration is a great base of your economy, and believe me getting a Visa in Latinamerican country is really hard and expensive i must add, and many people can't pay the interview for a Visa, so they decide go to U.S illegally and is the only way to mantain their families and besides they do the work that americans would never do.

Maybe you wouldn't notice the poverty at least in my country but there are places where the poverty is really extreme(people naked and without food) and after the Hurricane Stan Hit my country the situation is even worse in that places, so in many cases the illegal immigration is the only way to try mantain your family.

I said that i don 't wanted to offend anyone, but U.S is a mixture of cultures even the latin one is a very important culture in the U.S.

I will keep going to U.S because i said I loved it, but in my opinion is something really dumb to even think get rid of the Immigrants, and please the latin are not the only immigrants.

With Respect.
Alonos

and besides they do the work that americans would never do.

Really? I would take virtually any job if it came down to supporting my family. And I know many people who would, as well.

Really? I would take virtually any job if it came down to supporting my family. And I know many people who would, as well.

While what she said isn't exactly true to a point. And what you said is true, again, to a point. The thing is...companies know that they can pay well below an appropriate salary to a worker they know isn't going to complain. And if they do, there's a ton more willing to take his/her place. More than a few, not going to say all or even a few, of these workers generally send what money they can back to their families who had to stay behind and once they've made enough, they go back. This is just one aspect of the whole thing, but sometimes it gets a little overlooked.

Personally, I'm still not entirely sure where I stand on the whole thing. I can see the pros and cons that each side is arguing for or against. But my own mind is yet to be made up at this junction.

Without Offense you simply can't deport so many immigrants, because in U.S wherever you see, you see an immigrant and not only latin people, you see Asian, European and more.
No one is talking about deporting all immigrants, just illegal ones. There are not illegal immigrants everywhere you look. Granted in some states that may be true but not everywhere and it's not a reason to not attempt to solve the problem. As far as the *illegal* immigrants not just being latin people let's be eralistic how many people from Somalia, Korea, India or any other non North American country were able to walk or ride in a truck across the border? There are only two countries where illegal immigrants have an easy access to get into the US.

...and believe me getting a Visa in Latinamerican country is really hard and expensive i must add, and many people can't pay the interview for a Visa, so they decide go to U.S illegally...

Making sure a family has money and is able to support themselves is crucial for immigration. If you are legally let into this country, and cannot support yourself, then you go on welfare. Why should you come to this country just to have the government support you? It is not unreasonable to expect a family to show they have enough money to get by.

Making sure a family has money and is able to support themselves is crucial for immigration. If you are legally let into this country, and cannot support yourself, then you go on welfare. Why should you come to this country just to have the government support you? It is not unreasonable to expect a family to show they have enough money to get by.

If they had enough money to get by, we wouldnt even be having this discussion because they wouldnt want to leave their country in the first place.

If they had enough money to get by, we wouldnt even be having this discussion because they wouldnt want to leave their country in the first place.

Not entirely true. People leave for more reasons than poverty. They may not like the political situation. They may think there is a better opportunity for education here. I know several people who came here from The Dominican Republic. They lived in nice homes with maids. one family came for better health care. one came for a better education.

And in general, why should they come here if they don't have enough money in their own country? To leech off of our welfare system?

While what she said isn't exactly true to a point. And what you said is true, again, to a point. The thing is...companies know that they can pay well below an appropriate salary to a worker they know isn't going to complain. And if they do, there's a ton more willing to take his/her place.

Yes, and that is the reason, not because Americans are completely unwilling to take jobs like that.

Not entirely true. People leave for more reasons than poverty. They may not like the political situation. They may think there is a better opportunity for education here. I know several people who came here from The Dominican Republic. They lived in nice homes with maids. one family came for better health care. one came for a better education.

And in general, why should they come here if they don't have enough money in their own country? To leech off of our welfare system?


In the case of Mexico they are coming because they dont have enough money, and because they dont have the jobs there. Yes some come over here and leech on our welfare systems, but I think you are overgeneralizing. They come here to get jobs they cant get in Mexico.

Yes people immigrate for a wide variety of reasons, but in the case of Mexico, its economic reasons.

Also keep in mind that there are plenty of Americans who leech off of our welfare systems, it isnt just illegal immigrants.

Also keep in mind that there are plenty of Americans who leech off of our welfare systems, it isnt just illegal immigrants.

You're mixing up what I was saying. My comments were about those applying to be legal immigrants.

Techincally, illegal immigrants CANNOT directly leech off the welfare system. You cannot apply for welfare, live in the projects, or get food stamps unless you are a legal resident. That's the point I was trying to make, that our government demands people applying for legal immigration have enough money to move here. They are not going to let a penniless family move here, then immediately apply for living assistance.

So, if we take all the illegal immigrants, and start granting them legal status, won't THEY then also start applying for living assistance?

Again, why does it become the USA's problem? Why should we be the safe haven for everyone else? I think it would be best to spend our money pro-actively, helping to prevent the poverty that forces people into this country. Help Mexico help themselves, so its citizens don't come here looking for work.

You're mixing up what I was saying. My comments were about those applying to be legal immigrants.

Techincally, illegal immigrants CANNOT directly leech off the welfare system. You cannot apply for welfare, live in the projects, or get food stamps unless you are a legal resident. That's the point I was trying to make, that our government demands people applying for legal immigration have enough money to move here. They are not going to let a penniless family move here, then immediately apply for living assistance.

So, if we take all the illegal immigrants, and start granting them legal status, won't THEY then also start applying for living assistance?

Again, why does it become the USA's problem? Why should we be the safe haven for everyone else? I think it would be best to spend our money pro-actively, helping to prevent the poverty that forces people into this country. Help Mexico help themselves, so its citizens don't come here looking for work.

I understood what you were saying about legal immigrants leeching off of welfare. My point is there are plenty of people born in this country who do the exact same thing the immigrants do.

I do not agree with complete amnesty, but at the same time I dont agree with "ship them all back." They are here and will continue to be whether we like it or not.

Like you stated before, we need to help Mexico. Many politicians are corrupt in the Mexican government, yet we continue to cater to them. Instead of targeting the people that are coming here just trying to feed themselves, how about targeting those corrupt officials?

One last point: You ask their plight is our problem. Because whether we like it or not, what goes on there affects what goes on here, not just politically. Many resources are shared between these two countries(Ex rivers that flow through both countries, minerals, etc.)

I do not agree with complete amnesty, but at the same time I dont agree with "ship them all back." They are here and will continue to be whether we like it or not.
Who's calling to "ship them all back"? I havent heard any prominent government officials calling for that. If there is, they're idiots.

Who's calling to "ship them all back"? I havent heard any prominent government officials calling for that. If there is, they're idiots.


Its a common sentiment among a large portion of conservative Americans.

Someone posted this on another forum and many replyed saying that the goverment should be getting rid of them because they hurt our economy and they take our jobs...etc. Someone also said that Mexico is a "shithole" and that the "shit" comes to us. You can read that HERE (http://www.emuasylum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21318&perpage=20&highlight=immigrants&pagenumber=1)

My 2 cents: Whoever wrote this is a misinformed, xenophobic idiot who needs to go back and study American history and realize just how many PRODUCTIVE people entered the US illegally and went on to either contribute greatly to the USA along with their offspring.

And just that the fuck did they do to EARN American citizenship? The majority of Americans have done NOTHING but merely have the LUCK of being born on American soil... and THAT... and THAT ONLY, makes them Americans. They did not do JACKSHIT to earn it. What percentage of Americans have actually SERVED in the Armed Forces of the US? And does that even make them a good American?

They need to look up the difference between luck and to earn in the dictionary. Instead of being grateful for this luck, they choose be arrogant and elitist. They are pathetic and deserve less than the millions of immigrants who do the all the underpaid SHIT work that the Almighty Great Americans think they are too fucking good to do. When was the last time they picked cotton... picked grapes... scrubbed toilets of others or did manual labor making half of what their American co-workers were making all in the effort to do good for their families and put food in their bellys?

Immigrants both illegal and legal have broken their backs and given their lives for your country and to them you are indebted.

Immigrants both illegal and legal have broken their backs and given their lives for your country and to them you are indebted.

Indeed we are.

And that shall be made abundantly clear on 1st of May. A immigrant boycott is planned. And we will learn how painful their removal will be to the fabric of our country. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/28/boycott/index.html

And that shall be made abundantly clear on 1st of May. A immigrant boycott is planned. And we will learn how painful their removal will be to the fabric of our country
But again- who is seriously proposing to ship them out? That wont happen, and shouldnt happen. They're just using the "America is nothing without us" card as a threat to make us grant amnesty. They know, and we (Americans) know that they will not be shipped out. They are using our potential fear to control and influence us.

But on the flip side- they should not all be granted amnesty. And if I were in position to make a decision that matters- they can boycott, throw fits, and have a Mexican pride rally (because that really has something to do with immigration), but I will not grant amnesty just because there are 11 million of them. THeir sheer numbers will not justify their waver of due legal processes.

What is the alternative then? 11 million people in prison? Where will they all go if you don't have them removed, and yet don't give them all amnesty?

What is the alternative then? 11 million people in prison? Where will they all go if you don't have them removed, and yet don't give them all amnesty?


Putting them in prison and deporting them wont work as is evident now and neither will amnesty as there will be no incentive for the illegal immigration to stop.

Pressure most be put on the Mexican government to help with illegal immigration. Until that happens, nothing will change.

Pressure most be put on the Mexican government to help with illegal immigration. Until that happens, nothing will change.
Giving the immigrants strong, nearly irresistable incentives to return to their home countries would be more effective. If it's economically beneficial to return to their home countries rather than stay put in the US, they'll return on their own... in droves. Credit the forces of a free market.

Mexico can throw in other perks too... such as the imminet legalization of pot, cocaine and other drugs (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12535896/).

Giving the immigrants strong, nearly irresistable incentives to return to their home countries would be more effective. If it's economically beneficial to return to their home countries rather than stay put in the US, they'll return on their own... in droves. Credit the forces of a free market.

Mexico can throw in other perks too... such as the imminet legalization of pot, cocaine and other drugs (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12535896/).
It would be great if Mexico would cooperate with us on this, but they don't. Really, think about. Illegal immigrants get their paychecks here, then often spend them in Mexico and/or send money to their families who live in Mexico, where goods are much, much cheaper. Mexico actually benefits from illegals. Another problem is that Mexico's police force is corrupt. It's considered a promotion for a Mexican cop to work on the border because they can make a killing off of bribes and helping illegals get around US border security.

LOL @ Mexico helping us on this issue!

Maybe if someone other than Fox becomes president who actually wants to help us, and get rid of the corruption Blue pointed out.

Until then, I reiterate my first statement.

It would be great if Mexico would cooperate with us on this, but they don't. Really, think about. Illegal immigrants get their paychecks here, then often spend them in Mexico and/or send money to their families who live in Mexico, where goods are much, much cheaper. Mexico actually benefits from illegals. Another problem is that Mexico's police force is corrupt. It's considered a promotion for a Mexican cop to work on the border because they can make a killing off of bribes and helping illegals get around US border security.

And until that changes, nothing the U.S. does will make a difference. Not amnesty, nor sending them back, nor sending them to prison. Thats the problem, we are trying to catch the little fish and not tackling the larger issue of Mexican corruption.

They will indeed stop coming someday when we have become a third world country and there is no incentive for them to come here anymore.... It's coming folks. Just wait and see. Parts of California have already turned into Mexican slums. I was just there a few weeks ago.

They will indeed stop coming someday when we have become a third world country and there is no incentive for them to come here anymore.... It's coming folks. Just wait and see. Parts of California have already turned into Mexican slums. I was just there a few weeks ago.
There are slums for every type of people, immigrants will not make this a third world country. Way to be bias, kid.

It's understandable that the government wants tighter border security to keep illegal immigrants out, but I personally have no issue with illegal immigrants. It's when they bring drugs in that I have issues. -Amy F.

...i donīt have words for this...itīs sad...sooo sad...
Nuestro himno (http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?mediaURL=/day/20060428_day_nuestro&mediaType=WM)

...i donīt have words for this...itīs sad...sooo sad...
Nuestro himno (http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?mediaURL=/day/20060428_day_nuestro&mediaType=WM)


care to explain why it is sad?

Im really curious on whats gonna go down on monday.

I just found out that there's gonna be a boycott today. A boycott and a walk-out -- numbering in the millions. Nobody's going to work or buy American products. Los Angeles, Chicago, Phoenix, Tuscon, and bits of New York are the focal points of this movement. This enfuriates me. Like they said on Free FM (JV and Elvis show), "you're coming here and instead of keeping the system flowing as it should, instead of going through the process, you hijack the system and make demands?! You're illegal!" Not exactly in those words but very close to it. I would fucking hate it if someone came into my house without my permission then made demands. These hispanics are a disgrace to all other hispanics. I'm pissed off.

I just found out that there's gonna be a boycott today. A boycott and a walk-out -- numbering in the millions. Nobody's going to work or buy American products. Los Angeles, Chicago, Phoenix, Tuscon, and bits of New York are the focal points of this movement. This enfuriates me. Like they said on Free FM (JV and Elvis show), "you're coming here and instead of keeping the system flowing as it should, instead of going through the process, you hijack the system and make demands?! You're illegal!" Not exactly in those words but very close to it. I would fucking hate it if someone came into my house without my permission then made demands. These hispanics are a disgrace to all other hispanics. I'm pissed off.
if your pissed be sure to make note of the business that are closed today and be sure to not frequent them anymore, and be sure to let them know why you are no longer frequenting them by a nice letter to the manager. if they want to support illegal immigrants it's our right to no longer support them via patronage.

what they're attempting with the walk out amounts to large scale blackmail.

if your pissed be sure to make note of the business that are closed today and be sure to not frequent them anymore, and be sure to let them know why you are no longer frequenting them by a nice letter to the manager. if they want to support illegal immigrants it's our right to no longer support them via patronage. I'm not sure if I follow this way of thinking. If we apply this to the meatpacking / farming industries... we would not be eating beef, chicken, etc. Since most of the suppliers are independently owned and the beef, chicken is purchased by large corporations... and the meatpackers are shut down... does this mean you'll never eat because it's synonymous with supporting their illegal immigrants? Where is this limited to?

And Keep in mind, for the letters that these businesses get... they'll get some in support, and some against their position. As business managers, will they have time to read all the mail (in addition to the daily bills they receive from untilities, etc)?
what they're attempting with the walk out amounts to large scale blackmail. I see it differently. What they're attempting is to say "we're not being taken for granted any longer". I'm not sure I would view it as their blackmailing us until I walk in their shoes.

--

Edit:

Memphis situation. The rally is at 5pm, here. This is done to accomodates businesses.

I didn't post this before for fear of harassment, but what I'm wary of are the differentiating opinions. There are actually groups of militant Mexicans that want to purge the southwest of any non-Hispanic and are using this influx of boycotts to their advantage. It's common knowledge that certain groups of Mexicans want that area as their own. These are a minority, thank goodness, but there is violence going on at the border and it's both sides shooting. Yet our government sits idly by and says "Oh, it'll be fine." Really makes you wonder what's really behind these rallies which have been nurtured by the media down there. Many of them have pure motives, I'll agree, but this is going to be exploited if something terrible happens. It will close this country off even more which then leads to more control by the higher-ups and that fucking scares me.

I see it differently. What they're attempting is to say "we're not being taken for granted any longer".

Isn't that what the USA is trying to say by attempting to crack down on illegal immigrants?

Sure, they contribute to the economy by working. But, what are they taking away. They don't pay taxes, so they don't contribute to the cost of healthcare, or the cost to send their kids to school.

In Long Island, property taxes are rising like crazy to support schools and hospitals. Why? Too many illegal immigrants in the system. So, if the immigrants want to stage their protest, and stop working, then they should pull their kids out of schools and take all their sick out of the hopsitals. THEN we will see the real cost of their presence.

How many unemployed are there in the USA right now? Is it more or less than the number of jobs assumed being worked by illegals?

Jeff Salsbery told The Associated Press that he was losing thousands of dollars because 25 Latino workers hadn't shown up at his Carmel, Indiana, landscaping company.....

Also Tyson Foods, the world's largest meat producer, planned to close five of nine beef plants and four of six pork plants, the AP reported. Perdue Farms plants said it would close eight of 14 facilities, according to the AP.
SOURCE (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/immigrant.day/index.html)

They would not have this problem if they hired legal workers.

Also:

Meanwhile, a coalition of Hispanic-American groups held a news conference in Washington to stress that the protesters do not represent all immigrants.

"We understand the importance, contribution immigrants have made to the economy and the industry of this great nation," said retired Col. Albert F. Rodriguez, a veteran of World War II and the Vietnam War.

"But the difference is that we and millions of others like us did it legally. We're all here today to tell all those illegal protesters, 'You do not speak for me.'

So as you can see, it's not all immigrants. Those who went through the proper channels to get here don't necessarily support the illegals.

These hispanics are a disgrace to all other hispanics. I'm pissed off. :confused: Look who's behind them, sometimes other than Hispanic who are so used to manipulating and intimadating desperated people. Those disgraceful illegals are the tip of the Iceberg, dude.

They would not have this problem if they hired legal workers. Exactly! ;)

The point, is not merely to curtail illegal immigration, but support legal immigration and express disgust with the illegal variety.

I'm not sure if I follow this way of thinking. If we apply this to the meatpacking / farming industries... we would not be eating beef, chicken, etc. Since most of the suppliers are independently owned and the beef, chicken is purchased by large corporations... and the meatpackers are shut down... does this mean you'll never eat because it's synonymous with supporting their illegal immigrants? Where is this limited to?
I'm speaking of the service sector that the consumers deal directly with. If a restaurant or store is closed in support of the demands for full amnesty (http://www.immigrantsolidarity.org/) then I simply wont support that store or restaraunt.

And Keep in mind, for the letters that these businesses get... they'll get some in support, and some against their position. As business managers, will they have time to read all the mail (in addition to the daily bills they receive from untilities, etc)?
What they will notice is the change in income.

I see it differently. What they're attempting is to say "we're not being taken for granted any longer". I'm not sure I would view it as their blackmailing us until I walk in their shoes.
We're not going to take you having laws that we've broken any more? And we're going to hurt businesses financially if you don't. Let's not forget this isn't just a rally, it's a boycott of spending any immigrant dollars. I have no problem with having rallies to support immigration.

This (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/dobbs.immigrantprotests/index.html) article sums it up nicely.

We all awoke to headlines in our nation's most important newspapers reminding us that this is "A Day Without Immigrants." Not illegal immigrants, mind you, but immigrants.

USA Today headlined today's demonstrations and boycott "On Immigration's Front Lines." The New York Times headlines its story "With Calls for Boycott by Immigrants, Employers Gird for Unknown." The Washington Post and The Los Angeles Times are both calling its coverage "The Immigration Debate."

These major newspapers obviously don't want to disturb their readers with the information that today's demonstrations and boycott are about illegal immigration and amnesty for illegal aliens.

Another article on CNN's business page (http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm)seems to have been overlooked... And paints a different, more positive economic picture with the help of illegal immigrants.


Illegal workers: good for U.S. economy

The U.S. has benefited from illegal immigrants, most economists say, though some low-skilled workers have been hurt.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
May 1, 2006: 3:08 PM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - In the heated debate over the impact of illegal immigration on the U.S. economy, Andrew Sum is one of those focusing on the negative.

The economist - the director of labor market studies at Northeastern University in Boston - argues that the large supply of immigrants has displaced low-skilled U.S.-born workers, particularly the young and the poor, from jobs.

"About 85.5 of every 100 new workers are new immigrants in this decade," he said. "At no time in the last 60 years have we come close to this. They're really displacing young workers at a very high rate."

But even Sum would concede that the U.S. economy is larger, and growing faster, due to the supply of illegal immigrants, and that most Americans with higher job skills are better off for their presence.

"Without the immigrants, we would have a decline in labor force of 3 to 4 percent," he said. "We couldn't have grown nearly as much as we did in the '90s if we didn't have immigrants. And in the last few years our growth would have been slower. The only thing I've argued is that we've ignored that illegal immigration has put a lot of young adults into economic jeopardy."

Sum's views point out the dichotomy that many economists see when looking at the impact of immigration on the economy.

Few economists will argue with the concept that the economy is stronger for the presence of the low-cost labor force.

And while most admit they have to make guesses rather than the educated estimates they would like to make, most say that economic growth would be a half a percentage point to 2 points lower without immigrant workers..

But even most of those who think it's good for the economy do see an impact on lower-skilled U.S.-born workers.

Few economists expect the economy to take a noticeable hit Monday from the call for immigrants to stay away from work and take part in protests against legislation that will crack down on illegal immigration.

"It's only for a day; much of the work not done on Monday is just going to be made up for on the week afterwards," said Benjamin Powell, senior fellow at the Independent Institute, an Oakland-based think tank.

But Powell and many economists say that the economy would face significant problems if there was any significant cut in the amount of immigrant labor coming into the country.

"Immigration is actually critical," said Bernard Baumohl, executive director of the Economic Outlook Group, a research group in Princeton Junction, N.J. "It allows the U.S. economy to grow more rapidly without higher inflation pressures."

Some economists argue that not only do U.S. consumers benefit from lower prices as a result of the low wages most immigrants are paid, but that the availability of lower-wage labor helps create more work for higher-skilled, higher-paid workers who are generally native born.

"If I'm a builder and I can hire more wallboard guys cheaply, my (ability to use) skilled carpenters goes up," said Northeastern's Sum.

Immigrants help heat up home market
And home building is one sector that might take the biggest hit from a cut off of immigration.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that 22 percent of construction workers are foreign born, with 2.4 million immigrants working in the sector, the largest source of jobs for immigrant labor. Jerry Howard, CEO of the National Association of Home Builders, estimates that 25 to 30 percent of those working in resident construction are immigrants -- though no one knows how many are here legally.

"You take 30 percent of the labor out of any sector and you're going to have serious impact," said Howard. "The costs would go up and it would suppress demand to some extent because of the higher costs."

Howard said that in some regions of the country, such as Buffalo, N.Y., very few construction workers are foreign born, while in California, Texas and other places immigrants account for up to half of workers on construction sites. And he said that some working in skilled jobs, such as stone masonry, would be difficult to replace.

Howard says that even without foreign-born labor on home construction sites, record home sales in recent years have been aided by immigrants, even if they're not buying the six-figure homes that some of them are helping to build.

"The four cornerstones driving demand for building has been boomers buying second homes, (children of baby boomers) coming into the market, people using equity to renovate existing homes and immigration," he said. "You take away any one of those cornerstones, it's going to affect the market for all home sales."

Some economists say that if immigrant workers weren't present, rather than native-born workers getting better wages to do the same jobs, many jobs done by immigrants might not get done at all.

If immigration reform pushed wages higher for lower-skilled workers that would probably stop many average Americans from hiring household help they can now afford. The same is true for some manufacturers and service sector employers as well.

"The average wage of the low-income American would be higher. But some of those jobs wouldn't get done at all and output would be lower," said David Wyss, chief economist for Standard & Poor's if immigration reform reduces the low-wage labor pool.
A crackdown in illegal immigration in 2004 caused a shortage of workers needed to bring in the lettuce crop in the Western United States, said Powell, which he said caused a $1 billion loss for the industry as many growers had to leave their fields unharvested.

"To hire Americans to do it, they would have had to raise wages so far, it wouldn't have been worth it for them," said Powell at the Independent Institute. "It caused less of a loss to leave the crop to rot."

As for complaints that many critics of immigration cite - demand for social and government services by immigrants - most economists believe that is outweighed by the increased economic activity, even if some specific school districts or public hospitals struggle with the costs associated serving the immigrant community. *emphases mine*