ADHD is the most common "mental health problem" in children these days. Questions to consider:

Is the hyperactivity portion of ADHD a real illness or is it just kids being kids?

Is ADD itself a real illness, or is it just kids being kids?

If you believe that ADD and ADHD are legitimate mental illnesses, what impact do you think television has had on their growing numbers?

Are the illnesses overdiagnosed?

Do Ritalin and Adderall do more harm than good?

Should ADD and ADHD children be forced to take their medicine even if they protest that it changes their personality?

Should the school systems be allowed to force medication of such children against the wishes of the parents, for the children's intellectual and behavioral good?

Are both ADD and ADHD simply precursors to bipolar disorder, rather than separate, unrelated problems? (And if so, what should be done?)

Discuss.



<3 Mary

it's easier to say something doesn't exist when you don't have to personally deal with it. for people who actually have ADD/HD, it's a real thing.

i personally couldn't care less if people don't think it's real. those are probably the same open-minded individuals that think homosexuality is a choice.



i've been taking adderall since 1997. it makes me the pleasant and easy-to-get-along-with person that i am. i probably wouldn't have made it thru high school without it. as beneficial as it is, i don't think we quite know yet what the real consequences are of a lifetime of controlled amphetamine use. we know what happens to abusers, but it's only been in recent years that controlled amounts have been more widely distributed to patients into adulthood. i suppose we'll have to find out.
i don't notice any adverse physical effects. not until i run out, anyway. amphetamine withdrawl is a bitch. that's when i realize how much i really need it.

i know that ADD/HD and bi-polar disorder are often misdiagnosed as one another, but i don't think that one is a precursor to the other.

i don't think we quite know yet what the real consequences are of a lifetime of controlled amphetamine use. we know what happens to abusers, but it's only been in recent years that controlled amounts have been more widely distributed to patients into adulthood. i suppose we'll have to find out.
I'm not sure about that, mate. In Switzerland, docs have been proscribing MDMA (that funky chemical of which Ecstasy is a derivative) for ages to combat a range of problems from depression to (what is now known as) ADD. that's an amphetamine - I'm sure the research is there. Damned if I'd know how to find it, mind you.

Anyways - I think the most relevant question SangReal asked was about overdiagnosis - does anyone have any stats on this? What sort of increase in diagnoses have we seen over the last, say, 15 years?

it's easier to say something doesn't exist when you don't have to personally deal with it. for people who actually have ADD/HD, it's a real thing.

i personally couldn't care less if people don't think it's real. those are probably the same open-minded individuals that think homosexuality is a choice.

Just for the record, I don't really know if I have an opinion. This was spurred by a friend who was asking me these questions. He has ADHD, but he hates his Ritalin and is allergic I think to Adderall. He doesn't think that ADHD is real. He says that he's just hyper sometimes and he has trouble concentrating, and the medicine's not really helping, and why take it if it makes him irritable and changes his personality? I don't know what to tell him.

Btw I'm glad your medicine is so helpful to you, dev. You are quite lucky in that regard. And I'm trying to be open-minded by seeking opinions from others to use in developing my own.

<3 Mary

it's easier to say something doesn't exist when you don't have to personally deal with it. for people who actually have ADD/HD, it's a real thing.

Last year the doc's decided that i have ADHD combinde type (means i have both add and adhd) but my mom is always questioning if i do or not in fact she is so un sure that she doesnt even list it when she i filling out forms that ask if i have any medications and what i use them for! i am some one who "has to deal with it" but i dont like to go around blaming my problems in school on that i in truth dont even talk about it unless thats the subject in the convorsation...P.S if i spelled something wrong forgive me i am a horrible speller!

Not to be mean or anything but I heard a comic one night say "What is this shit? ADHD? Whatever happen to being just plain ol' stupid?" which at the time I thought was funny, but a few of my cousins were diagnosed with it as well as my sister and brother. It in fact is real, I can tell a difference in the way other children act compared to my sister and brother. A BIG DIFFERENCE.

I do believe that it does exist, but I also believe that some children are too easily and too quickly diagnosed. There may be many kids that have it, but just as well there are probably many kids that don't and are given a drug for nothing.

Many kids who are rambunctious and active and don't listen are just being kids. Some are more like that than others. But I don't believe that a mental illness lies within all the children that are diagnosed with ADD/ADHD.

Some parents seem to be looking for a quick fix for their child's hyperactivity, and neglect to realize that the continual consuming of foods like Kool-Aid and raw hot dogs isn't helping. Foods that are processed, full of sugar, or packed with artificial flavoring/dyes will naturally cause a child to be hyper. Some kids just can't handle it.

Other factors may be involved for a child's behavior. For instance if he just suddenly starts acting up, perhaps it has to do with the friends he hangs out with at school, or feels neglected attention. Many children will "lash out" in order to get the attention they feel deprived.

As for the drugs, well, I'm not sure about them. A lot of times they may be just another quick fix, also, that just masks the real problem beneath the surface.

When my brother was eight, his teacher at school held a conference with my mom, just to tell her that she thought he had ADD and to take him in to see a doctor to get diagnosed. He was diagnosed with it, but my mom took him to another doctor to get a second opinion, in which was just the opposite of what the first doctor said. My mom ignored it, and a few weeks later the teacher asked her if he'd been to a doctor yet, because he was still acting hyper in school and whispering to others during class.

At home he seemed to be just a normal little boy, and he was doing okay with schoolwork. It seemed to all of us that the teacher was too lazy to handle a little activity that is normal in small children. Apparently this teacher had gone to a few other parents and said the same thing about their kids, and I know at least one of those boys were put on Ritalin.

If a child is a little more hyper than others, I think other methods should be looked into before throwing them on a medication. Some drugs may be okay, I don't know. But I don't think that Ritalin is okay.

I say that because I have seen the long-term effects of that drug. Not a lifetime of course, but on other children.

My brother's friend (the boy in his class) was put on it, and I had seen him beforehand. Before the drug, he was pretty hyper, always running around and misbehaving. I always got annoyed when he came over. But seeing him on the drug was a lot worse. He was so mellow, and didn't want to do anything. He never wanted to come over anymore, and once my brother went over to his house but then came back home upset, because Jacob wasn't doing anything. It's kind of odd to see this behavior change in a child who was once lively. That may have been a coincidence, but I don't think so. And that was only the short-term effect of it.

Two other boys I've known that had been on Ritalin for most of their lives (one was 11 and the other was 15) were both extremely small for their age. The fifteen-year-old had recently been taken off of it, and was expelled from school for being caught with speed.

It's not surprising that Ritalin (which really is a form of speed) would stunt one's growth. Stimulants do just the opposite to children as they do to adults. Coffee, for example, is supposed to make one alert. If a child drinks it, they will be more relaxed and less hyper.

It's also not surprising that this drug should be addicting.

Stuff like that really makes me think. How many children are being misdiagnosed? And if ADD/ADHD does exist, for the ones that are diagnosed properly, what are the effects (long and short term) of drugs, especially Ritalin?

I don't know. All that I've seen to do with it, maybe it's all one big coincidence. But I really don't believe so.

i do believe it exists...but i dont believe there as as many kids with ADHD as what we think. i think its mostly a disipline problem , and parents are too scared to disipline their children so when they muck up the parents dope them up with drugs . i agree with mostly everything that shivercide has said.
i dont think its normal , tho, for a child to lose thier temper at the slighest thing...when they are over 4 , i mean,...and throw tantrums which involve chucking chairs , tables, and biting and hurting other people etc, like this boy i know, but it could be because of abuse, neglect..or other mental problems

You may as well ask if epilepsy really exists. I don't know what the deal is with people and the stigmas attatched to "mental" illnesses, if it was a physical problem then people would have no problem accepting it.

ADHD and ADD are as real as any other illness. Are they over diagnosed? Possibly, but I can't say for certain because I haven't looked that much into it. But does that mean that they aren't real? No.

I personally find this thread more than slightly offensive. I have a nine year old brother with ADHD and believe me, if you had ever met him and seen how he is without his medication then you would have no problem believing the reality of it. I agree with what dev said about it not being real to you because you don't have to deal with it everyday, but that doesn't make it any less real. Truth is not relative, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I do believe that it does exist, but I also believe that some children are too easily and too quickly diagnosed. There may be many kids that have it, but just as well there are probably many kids that don't and are given a drug for nothing.

Many kids who are rambunctious and active and don't listen are just being kids. Some are more like that than others. But I don't believe that a mental illness lies within all the children that are diagnosed with ADD/ADHD.

Some parents seem to be looking for a quick fix for their child's hyperactivity, and neglect to realize that the continual consuming of foods like Kool-Aid and raw hot dogs isn't helping. Foods that are processed, full of sugar, or packed with artificial flavoring/dyes will naturally cause a child to be hyper. Some kids just can't handle it.


These are all very good points. Whether you believe this is a real disease or not, one thing can definetly be said for certainty. Just like any medication, there needs to be a follow-up on a personal level here. Some parents do find it easier to throw there child on medication before looking at other factors in which they can improve their childs behaviour, as well.

Being that I was diagnosed with ADD during my early childhood, I am obviously going to lean towards the fact that this is definetly real. First off having ADD for me did not imply in any which way that I was dumb, infact quite the opposite. I had alot of trouble in grade 1 with keeping up with the curriculum. The teacher wanted to fail me, and so they started doing some test on me and found that I worked very well when focused on one specific subject. For me it was a combination of dextrostat and modifying my learning experience. I started focusing on one particular subject rather then jumping from one subject to another, I also ended up as a high "B" to "A" average student. :) I don't believe this is something you can completely overcome whether it be through medication, or altering everything in your life, but it can be helped.

ADD and ADHD are very real. As far as ADD and ADHD being linked to depression, there is actually a very good reason for this. Dolopine, which is a chemical that is released as a neurotransmitter, which then absorbs between cells that in turn, create your good emotions. Both ADD and ADHD depend on low counts of dolopine, as does depression with other factors.

More importantly, if it isn't real, I would be very interested in knowing what it is that causes me to be horrible at multi-tasking. ;) Also if we can debate whether ADD and ADHD are real or not, we should probably start by debating whether science is real or not. Also, if ADD and ADHD aren't real, why does medication help to correct it?

I agree that ADHD is very much over-diagnosed, especially by parents, medical practitioners and even teachers who have very little comprehension of the child's context and behaviour, and they refuse to accept other possibilites or try other approaches other than "Dope them up to the eyeballs and then wonder why they act like zombies" approach...

I can vouch for that: when I was in Year 2 (second grade), I was "naughty". Compared to one kid in particular, I was a damn choir-boy, but anyway, my teacher triumphantly told my parents that I had ADHD and that I should see a doctor and be put on medication.

Fortunately for yours truely, my mother, being a world-weary cynical nurse, correctly pointed out that children with genuine ADHD behave like they do ALL the time. Since I was perfectly fine at home, I couldn't have ADHD, so there was another reason

Whoops :rolleyes:

Being that I have been diagonsed with it T_T yes, it's real..

After I took concerta, I started being able to pay attention more. I didn't drift off as much as I used to, and the medicine also helps you to stay up if you even get only like 2 hours of sleep. I think it has some caffeine shit in it..

However, the doctor said there would be a big noticeable change.

I still got C's and D's. So..I didn't really study for quizzes or tests so who knows. I haven't taken the medication for about a year almost now. Also haven't been in school for almost 8 months.

The hyperactive part...sometimes I'm hyper but a lot of the time I'm not. Depends who I'm around. So I wouldn't say that necessarily all people diagnosed with ADHD ARE hyper.

Some illnesses are overdiagnosed. Television impacting ADHD peoples I'm not sure about but it didn't fuck me up.

Medication for ADHD peoples is not always good - it depends on the person. In most cases I'd say it helps more. Some cases just a little.

ADD and ADHD children should try medication regardless of what they think. They need to be told that it does not change their personality. They still gon be the same person. Same personality, same behavior, you know. They ain't gon change much aside from being able to concentrate more without drifting off. And of course, school systems shouldn't be allowed to force kids to take medication for ADHD - that's up to the parents/kids themselves to decide.

Not sure about the last question...but yea, like it was already mentioned earlier, it's easier to say it does not exist if you ain't diagnosed with it.

it's been my experience that not all medications work the same.

i was lucky enough to find what worked for me on the first try, but gave a couple others a shot just to see what happened. desoxyn (sp) just kept me awake and didn't help at all with concentration. cencerta allowed me to concentrate, but i enjoyed none of the personality benefits that i get from adderall. so maybe it's not the coolest thing to try one and quit after it doesn't work.

it's been my experience that not all medications work the same.

Yeah, that's why they make different ones. Different people are malfunctional in different ways. My mom takes Paxil (a lot of it) for her clinical depression and it works like a charm. I took it for awhile and it didn't really do anything besides put my peepee on the fritz. Now I am just unmedicated and I'm doing okay. For other people Prozac or one of the other slightly different compounds works better.

As far as AD(H)D, it's probably overdiagnosed, but yeah, it's definitely real. Like most mental illnesses we don't have very good statistics because most of them are either under- or overdiagnosed.

Yeah, that's why they make different ones. Different people are malfunctional in different ways. My mom takes Paxil (a lot of it) for her clinical depression and it works like a charm. I took it for awhile and it didn't really do anything besides put my peepee on the fritz.
Your paxil experience sounds much like mine. While I was on it, I was dumb as fuck, couldn't remember anything, and had absolutely no sexual drive (which means nothing, really). Infact the loss of sexual drive is quite common, with 40 to 50 percent of patients experiencing such side effects.

I'm not sure if you know of this though, but there are other forms of medication along the same lines that substitutes serotonin with bupropion hydrochloride, and have little to no side affects, in that regard. It is also in it's early stages of testing, but has been regarded as a stimulant for sexual drive. It's like viagra and anti-depressants in one? yay.
So in other words, if you still feel you could benefit from a medication then you may want to consider this, however if you are managing on your own I wouldn't bother.

it's been my experience that not all medications work the same.

That's true. I used to take straterra and every few months they would have to up my dosage b/c it would stop working, and the worst part about that was it tore up my stomach, and I threw up just about every morning.


cencerta allowed me to concentrate, but i enjoyed none of the personality benefits .

That's what I take, and I don't know what you mean by that, but I know that with the concerta, i'm not always...'there'. And at night time when it starts to wear off, i'm quiet and I just don't want to be around anyone, or talk.
It's a nice appetite supressor tho (:

i teach kids with ADHD, i have 18 kids in my class and they are from the age of 9 till 13

some of them really have ADHD
if they don't have their medicine on time, it's like they're gonna explode
otherwise they're fine to handle, so that's when you know they have ADHD
cause if you don't, the medicine wont have any effect on you

a few other kids in my class are called ADHD-kids by doctors too, but
they're just spoiled or live on the streets and aren't used to rules and to be social and things like that, they've never been thought by their parents how to behave in public and that's why they're hard to handle and get easily the ADHD stamp
i'm not saying that they're all spoiled, this just an example

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by asking the question. As I previously said, this came out of a conversation with a friend who really HAD been diagnosed with ADHD but was skeptical about its existence. Me? I don't know. I always thought it did exist until I heard somebody with it say it might be a crock. Listening to you guys has given me a lot to go back to him with, in an effort to help him feel better. Thank you so much, and like I said: don't get offended. I didn't mean it any way, and I wasn't questioning anybody's legitimacy. I was just asking a question that someone asked me. I love you all.

<3 Mary

Your paxil experience sounds much like mine. While I was only it was was dumb as fuck, couldn't remember anything, and had absolutely no sexual drive (which means nothing, really). Infact the loss of sexual drive is quite common, with 40 to 50 percent of patients experiencing such side effects.

I'm not sure if you know of this though, but there are other forms of medication along the same lines that substitutes serotonin with bupropion hydrochloride, and have little to no side affects, in that regard. It is also in it's early stages of testing, but has been regarded as a stimulant for sexual drive. Another words, it's like viagra and anti-depressants in one? yay.

In other words, if you still feel you could benefit from a medication then you may want to consider this, however if you are managing on your own I wouldn't bother.

you use big words and that's sexy

My stepson was diagnosed with ADHD and was failing school.
Luckily, we had a prediatrician who studied kids with ADHD and only resorted to medications as a last resort, and then in small dosages.
Well, needless to say we ended up putting him on adderall. His grades improved dramatically, but over time the dosage had to continually increase.
The doc told us the medication was more for "us" rather than for him...to keep us from killing him. So far it's worked. :D

There were side effects we noticed with the adderall. It wore off rather quickly and also suppressed appetite too much.
The doc referred us to a specialist that deals with ADHD issues closer to where we moved to. She introduced us to Concerta, and it works fantastic.
But his dosage again had to continually be increased. So she said try Stratera, at the same time as the Concerta in a lower dosage. This seems to be working pretty well. He still gets sucky grades because he doesn't try, but he can now concentrate on tasks and seems well adjusted and happy.
He eats like a freekin cow and is growing more each day it seems.

I guess it just boils down to experimentation to find what works with each indivudual. ADHD affects people in many different ways, so don't give up on just one attempt to find something that helps. Try different meds, try a different doctor, study and research the illness and medications so that you better understand what is taking place. Knowledge is power!

Some doc tried to put me on ADD meds when I was 12 or so. It turned me into a zombie, and not the cool kind of zombie from the movies. However, my bro got on ADD meds, and it helped him...somewhat. So I think while many people actually have ADD/ADHD, these things tend to be overprescribed. Schools find it so easy to just slap the ADD label on kids who don't pay attention or act up. But some of them, like me, were just bored and unchallenged by their schooling.

I think the issue of schools forcing kids to take these meds is more pressing. What do you think?

About 3-5% of school-aged children have ADHD, which is defined as a persistent pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity that is more frequent and sever than is typically observed in individuals at a comparable level of development. About 50% or childrens' referrals to mental health practitioners are about ADHD. There are four basic behavioral patterns: inattention/distractibility, impulsivity, hyperactivity, and lack of rule-governed behavior. Just because a child is a little wild, that doesn't mean s/he has ADHD.

In attempting to treat ADHD, there are many different types of drugs. There are psychostimulants, like Adderall, Ritalin, Dexedrine, and Cylert, which work depending on the concentration of the drug in the bloodstream. They tend to make people overly tired, have less of an appetite, more irritable, and more sensitive. There are anti-depressents, like Tofranil, Elavil, and Despiramine, which are usually offered to kids who are not responsive to psychostimulants. There are anti-hypertensives, like Clonidine, which are often used WITH psychostimulants, and there are SSRIs, like Wellbutrin, Paxil, and Prozac, which are more often used for depression and bi-polar disorder.

The drugs don't FIX the problem, though. They don't control your actions. Instead, they make you more available to do things. But because they don't fix anything permanently, it is rare that you can stop taking them and retain the effects they gave you.

About the school thing, though... schools themselves cannot force ANYONE to take medication, nor can they diagnose a disorder. They can make suggestions and referrals, but teachers are not doctors. If they see something that they think should be looked further into, they may say something, but that can sometimes lead to the school then being obligated to pay for the medical attention. Don't be so quick to blame teachers, though. Despite the general negative energy focused on them, most actually ARE out there to help children. God knows it's not for the money and esteem.

one concern that i have about amphetamines:

ampetamines tend to concentrate in semen in higher levels than in blood.

every woman i have sex with goes crazy. is this b/c i'm just that good, or is it amphetamine psychosis?

every woman i have sex with goes crazy. is this b/c i'm just that good, or is it amphetamine psychosis?
Hyper-orgasmic crazy or Bag-lady crazy? Cos if it's the former, I wouldn't really ask why.

But I somehow doubt that your Hickory is a big, meat, ecstasy syringe. I could be wrong.

that's when you know they have ADHD
cause if you don't, the medicine wont have any effect on you
Maybe in that case, but medication can have an effect on you regardless of whether you need it or not.

But I somehow doubt that your Hickory is a big, meat, ecstasy syringe. I could be wrong.

ask around.

dumbass.

ask around.

dumbass.
Ah. Gotcha. ;)

Ah. Gotcha. ;)


i'm sorry. what were we talking about again?

*dangerously unmedicated*

AD&D is needlessly complicated. D&D 3rd Edition or even 3.5 work much better. The d20 system is great, streamlining the dice rolls and freeing up time for more interesting role-playing and counting treasure.

you use big words and that's sexy
and can't form a proper sentence.. hot. apparently I'm still dumb as fuck. or something like that..

But I somehow doubt that your Hickory is a big, meat, ecstasy syringe. Head, you do know how to turn a phrase. ;)

ive supposedly had add most of my childhood and adult life - ive taken dexamphetamine on and off over the years - but in the last year ive taken more than my whole life - i personally have trouble using my medication responsibly, and i find they tend to greatly alter my personality. but i believe i have certain problems i havent been able to overcome and these amphetamines may help me concentrate for longer, therefor being more learned and productive. i had radioactive isotopes injected into my bloodstream when i was 21 and they then mapped the blood flow to all the regions of my brain in a thinking and a resting state. i dont know about the long term side effects, but i find when i dont have any dex, im drained - but that passes after a few days. the dex dont seem to do much at all anymore if i take them every day - so maybe overall im just on a slightly better level of me - than i would be without them completely.

From where I stand it seems that ADD/ADHD are real. However, many people have livestyles in which they consume high sugar foods. This is a contributing factor to the hyperactivity part of ADD/ADHD.

I don't think that the number of cases is as high as we think. Misdiagnosis is common. Also, the prolonged use of Ritalin and Adderall may not be good. The school systems should definitely not force the use of these drugs against the wishes of the parents or the child. Furthermore, it may be a good idea to explore other reasons why a child is hyperactive rather than immediately give the child medication.

Also, if children were to spend more time outside or at sports activites, they could expend the extra energy. This would develop better sleep habits, resulting in a more calm child the next day. Also, spending the extra energy will offset hyperactivity. I think that ADD and ADHD are seperate illnesses rather than precursors to bipolar disorder.

My dad has ADHD... Not just kids have it. I think it's real, you can tell from spending a day with him. The way it works with him, He's really hyper all the time, I mean, we can't go anywhere with him without him getting all fidgety and angry. If we're in a resturant and he finishes before we do, we have to leave anyway. Another problem he has is that normal medication used to make him not hyper, counterworks on him. If he takes a sleeping pill, he'll be awake all night. If he takes an energy pill, he'll be mellow....So, yeah, I think ADHD is real, indeed.

My dad has ADHD... Not just kids have it. I think it's real, you can tell from spending a day with him. The way it works with him, He's really hyper all the time, I mean, we can't go anywhere with him without him getting all fidgety and angry. If we're in a resturant and he finishes before we do, we have to leave anyway. Another problem he has is that normal medication used to make him not hyper, counterworks on him. If he takes a sleeping pill, he'll be awake all night. If he takes an energy pill, he'll be mellow....So, yeah, I think ADHD is real, indeed.

Hmmm, is he heavily focused on time and always wants to rush to do things before a set time, and can't stand waiting in queues?

I ask because if that's the case, perhaps he is one of those people whom psychologists class as a "Type A" personality: highly driven and motivated, but they are alsways pressuring themselves and racing to do things and is impatient most of the time.

There's nothing wrong with being what you are personality wise, I ask because some people are just like that, but don't have ADHD.

Hmmm, is he heavily focused on time and always wants to rush to do things before a set time, and can't stand waiting in queues?

I ask because if that's the case, perhaps he is one of those people whom psychologists class as a "Type A" personality: highly driven and motivated, but they are alsways pressuring themselves and racing to do things and is impatient most of the time.

There's nothing wrong with being what you are personality wise, I ask because some people are just like that, but don't have ADHD.
To answer your question... Not really. He did get diagnosed with ADHD like a year ago and just got diagnosed as bipolar last week. He is really impatient, but he doesn't rush himself a lot. One thing he does that irritates me like crazy is, he has to do everything right now, like he'll buy some fancy thing for the house or his car, and have to set it up right then and there no matter what. Today, he sold someone a car and drove a half hour at 11 at night to go pick up something for it that he could have done tomorrow, he just had to do it today. I hate that.

Im no doctor but I think my brother has had it for a long time. In middle school, he did badly and in 8th grade he failed. He barely passed the second time, and in 9th grade they put him in the special Freshman classes they have to help them pass..but he still didnt, by like..half a credit!. My teachers who have him tell me that he'll do a few questions of his test, and then put his head down for a little while, then he'll do a few more and so on. He doesn't pay attention well and he draws more in class then he pays attention. He doesnt take any medicine cause when he did in elementary school it made him fall asleep. *sigh*

Im no doctor but I think my brother has had it for a long time. In middle school, he did badly and in 8th grade he failed. He barely passed the second time, and in 9th grade they put him in the special Freshman classes they have to help them pass..but he still didnt, by like..half a credit!. My teachers who have him tell me that he'll do a few questions of his test, and then put his head down for a little while, then he'll do a few more and so on. He doesn't pay attention well and he draws more in class then he pays attention. He doesnt take any medicine cause when he did in elementary school it made him fall asleep. *sigh*
Didn't you tell me a while ago that your mom and dad got him evaluated and told them he had ADHD? He seems like he may have it.

one concern that i have about amphetamines:

ampetamines tend to concentrate in semen in higher levels than in blood.

every woman i have sex with goes crazy. is this b/c i'm just that good, or is it amphetamine psychosis?

*coughs*
I was crazy before. and no.

I've been diagnosed with ADHD. Which makes sense, because I have the attention span of a gnat, and I fidget nonstop. Focusing is sincerely one of the hardest things for me to do. I was on meds for ADHD for a while, and they did indeed helped.

However that doesn't prove that the medicine helped an actual disorder. It could have been a psychological healer, as in I just thought a pill was helping me, so I tried harder to focus and succeeded. While I don't think that's the case, it's possible.

I think that ADHD does exist, but as of late it's just become a watered down excuse to not pay attention. I'm not sure how it is possible especially to diagnose a child with ADHD. How many kids do you know that can actually sit still and pay attention? Yea, some can, most can't- but just because they can't doesn't mean they automatically have ADD or ADHD. It just seems like everyone jumps straight to that conclusion. It's part of being a kid, it's not a damned disorder.

What were we talking about ? :cool:

Didn't you tell me a while ago that your mom and dad got him evaluated and told them he had ADHD? He seems like he may have it.

They did, when he was in 5th grade..hes supposed to be in 11th by now but of course...he's failed once, failed again so..yeah. I dunno why they dont go get him evaluated again..

I suppose it's real, i am more claim when i take my medication, i take a pill called dexidrine, and it helps me focus in school

ADHD comes from a disfunctioning dopamine system that connects with the prefrontal cortex of the brain. There is too little dopamine coming into the prefrontal cortex which causes, through a feedback system, too much dopamine into other areas of the brain that control for movement. This causes children with ADHD to be hyperactive, while the disfunctioning prefrontal cortex causes them to be rather uninhibited.

There are also rats with this condition, who display the same type if hyperactivity.

So there is absolutely no question as to whether or not ADHD is real, it is caused by a neurobiological problem.

From where I stand it seems that ADD/ADHD are real. However, many people have livestyles in which they consume high sugar foods. This is a contributing factor to the hyperactivity part of ADD/ADHD.

Also, if children were to spend more time outside or at sports activites, they could expend the extra energy. This would develop better sleep habits, resulting in a more calm child the next day. Also, spending the extra energy will offset hyperactivity. I think that ADD and ADHD are seperate illnesses rather than precursors to bipolar disorder.

Actually, the first part of that statement is on its way to being debunked. This (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/14/1739_50032.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}) article has something to say about that.

As for outdoor activity and sleep habits, its a rather glib solution. Its like telling someone who is so obese they need a wheelchair to cut out sugar and start jogging to lose weight. While that may work wonders for someone in the average weight category, an obese person risks knee damage, probably lacks the endurance to run far enough to make it count, and there is some degree of physical pain involved when that much fat tissue is thrown around the way it is when jogging. Outdoor activity and slepeing right will help normal kids be better, and also might prevent them from showing signs that may be misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD, but it is hardly a panacea for people with more serious problems. Treating ADHD and ADD isn't about calming people down, its about helping with focus.

The other forgotten factor is the issue of satisfaction of desires. Its easier to give up on something diffictult, or something you don't want to do, because the moment you do, you are psychologically satisfied. The source of stress is gone (possibly replaced by a new one, but not necessarily). That normal psychological process may be a contributing factor to either the disorder, or the diagnosis of the disorder. Daydreaming, procrastinating, seeking distractions (tv, internet, sleep, food), all can potentially contribute to the disorder, or even to misdiagnosis if the person is otherwise normal (chemically) and simply lacks the learned discipline to stick with a difficult task.

-PT

I have a therapist and all that but my dad wont make an appointmet for a phychatirst (sp?)..but my therapist is pretty sure that either i have ADHD or im bi polar...my mom is bi polar..so i think im probably bi polar rather then having ADHD

I have a therapist and all that but my dad wont make an appointmet for a phychatirst (sp?)..but my therapist is pretty sure that either i have ADHD or im bi polar...my mom is bi polar..so i think im probably bi polar rather then having ADHD

Bipolar disorder is dangerous if left untreated. I have no idea why your father, married (presumably) to a person with bipolar disorder, would risk not treating yours. That's irresponsible parenting. Grr.... You should see a psychiatrist, or at the very least your family physician, to determine how serious the problem is.

ADHD comes from a disfunctioning dopamine system that connects with the prefrontal cortex of the brain. There is too little dopamine coming into the prefrontal cortex which causes, through a feedback system, too much dopamine into other areas of the brain that control for movement. This causes children with ADHD to be hyperactive, while the disfunctioning prefrontal cortex causes them to be rather uninhibited.

There are also rats with this condition, who display the same type if hyperactivity.

So there is absolutely no question as to whether or not ADHD is real, it is caused by a neurobiological problem.

Where did you get this information? It is generally accepted knowledge that this condition in rats is called MANIA, not ADHD. If the brain is one way on dopamine, you get Parkinson's. If the other, you get mania. Not ADHD, that I know of. Although this dopamine thing would partly explain why ADHD and bipolar disorder are so often comorbid, I would like to see your source. :)

My older brother supposedly has ADHD. It wasn't called this at the time (the late 1980's), but I remember my parents hiding Ritolin in little cheese balls so he would take it. I was in elementary school at the time. He knew that they were giving him this drug, and he actively resisted, despite the cheese balls, cookies, whatever it was hidden in. (even the dog was smart enough to know that there was something hidden in the treats) I always felt bad for him, because he did not want to be medicated for a problem that he really didn't think that he had, but some doctor said that he had AD. (they hadn't added the extra HD at at the time) Anyway, my brother resented the fact that some doctor had labeled him as having some sort of problem when he was really just a kid with a lot of different interests. I think my parents gave up on the medication approach with me.

My brother now works as a recording engineer for Time Warner.

Where did you get this information? It is generally accepted knowledge that this condition in rats is called MANIA, not ADHD. If the brain is one way on dopamine, you get Parkinson's. If the other, you get mania. Not ADHD, that I know of. Although this dopamine thing would partly explain why ADHD and bipolar disorder are so often comorbid, I would like to see your source. :)

Well, I am currently obtaining a PhD in neuroscience and just did a thesis on ADHD, but if you would like my sources here they are:

Ernst, M., Zametkin, A.J., Matochik, J.A., Pascualvaca, D., Jons, P.H., Cohen, R.M., High Midbrain [F]DOPA Accumulation in Children With Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Am J Psychiatry, 1999. 156(8): p. 1209-1215.
2. Taylor, E., Clinical foundations of hyperactivity research. Behavioural Brain Research, 1998. 94: p. 11-24.
3. Sagvolden, T., Sergeant, J.A., Attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder - from brain disfunctions to behaviour. Behavioural Brain Research, 1998. 94(1): p. 1-10.
4. Uylings, H.B.M., Groenewegen, H.J., Kolb, B., Do rats have a prefrontal cortex? Behavioural Brain Research, 2003. 146(1-2): p. 3-17.
5. Brown, V.J., Bowman, E.M., Rodent models of prefrontal cortical function. Trends Neurosci, 2002. 25(7): p. 340-343.
6. Langleben, D.D., Austin, G., Krikorian, G., Ridlehuber, H.W., Goris, M.L., Strauss, H.W., Interhemispheric asymmetry of regional cerebral blood flow in prepubescent boys with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Nuc Med Communc, 2001. 22(12): p. 1333-1340.
7. Filipek, P.A., Semrud-Clikeman, M., Steingard, R.J., Renshaw, P.F., Kennedy, D.N., Biederman, J., Volumetric MRI analysis compairing subjects having attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder with normal controls. Neurology, 1997. 48(3): p. 589-601.
8. Arnsten, A.F.T., Catecholamine modulation of prefrontal cortical cognitive function. Trends in Cognit. Sci., 1998. 2(11): p. 436-447.
9. Purves, D., Augustine, G.J., Fitzpatrick, D., Katz, L.C., LaMantia, A-S., McNamara, J.O., Williams, S.M., Neuroscience. 2nd ed. 2001, Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates.
10. Birrell, J.M., Brown, V.J., Medial frontal cortex mediates perceptual attentional set shifting in the rat. J. Neurosci, 2000. 20(11): p. 4320-4324.
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15. Kritzer, M. 2004.
16. Vertes, R.P., Analysis of projections from the medial prefrontal cortex to the thalamus in the rat, with emphasis on nucleus reuniens. J Comp Neurol, 2002. 442: p. 163-187.
17. Groenewegen, H.J., Wright, C.I., Uylings, H.B., The anatomical relationships of the prefrontal cortex with limbic structures and the basal ganglia. J. Psychopharmacol., 1997. 11(2): p. 99-106.
18. Carr, D.B., Sesack, S.R., Projections from the rat prefrontal cortex to the ventral tagmental area: target specificity in the synaptic associations with mesoaccumbens and mesocortiocal neurons. J Neurosci, 2000. 20: p. 3864-3873.
19. Conde, F., Audinat, E., Maire-Lepoivre, E., Crepel, F., Afferent connections of the medial frontal cortex of the rat. A study using retrograde transport of fluorescent dyes. Brain Res Bull, 1990. 24: p. 341-354.
20. Barbelivien, A., Ruotsalainen, S., Sirvio, J., Metabolic alterations in the prefrontal and cingulate cortices are related to behavioral deficits in the rodent model of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. Cerebral Cortex, 2001. 11(11): p. 1056-1063.
21. D'Esposito, M.D., Postle, B.R., The dependence of span and delayed-response performance on prefrontal cortex. Neuropsychologia, 1999. 37(11): p. 1303-1315.
22. Sagvolden, T., Behavioral validation of the spontaneously hypertensive rat (SHR) as an animal model of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (AD/HD). Neuroscience and Biobehavioural Reviews, 2000. 24(1): p. 31-39.
23. Manes, F., Sahakian, B., Clark, L., Rogers, R., Antoun, N., Aitken, M., Robbins, T., Decision-making processes following damage to the prefrontal cortex. Brain, 2002. 125(3): p. 624-639.
24. Sagvolden, T., Aase, H., Zeiner, P., Berger, D., Altered reinforcement mechanisms in attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Behavioural Brain Research, 1998. 94(1): p. 61-71.
25. Sullivan, R.M., Brake, W.G., What the rodent prefrontal cortex can teach us about attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder: the critical role of early developmental events on prefrontal function. Behavioural Brain Research, 2003. 146(1-2): p. 43-55.
26. Carli, M., Robbins, T.W., Evenden, J.L., Everitt, B.J., Effect of lesions to ascending noradrenergic neurones on performance of a 5-choice serial reaction task in rats; implications for theories of dorsal noraderenergic bundle function based on selective attention and arousal. Behavioural Brain Research, 1983. 9: p. 361-380.
27. Sergeant, J.A., Geurts, H., Huijbregts, S., Scheres, A., Oosterlan, J., The top and the bottom of ADHD: a neuropsychological perspective. Neuroscience and Biobehavioural Reviews, 2003. 27(7): p. 583-592.
28. Krause, K.-H., Dresel, S.H., Krause, J., la Fougere, C., Ackenheil, M., The dopamine transporter and neuroimaging in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Neuroscience and Biobehavioural Reviews, 2003. 27(7): p. 605-612.
29. Krause, K.-H., Dresel, S.H., Krause, J., Kung, H.F., Tatsch, K., Increased striatal dopamine transporter in adult patients with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: effects of methylphenidate as measured by single photon emission computer tomography. Neuroscience Letters, 2000. 285(8): p. 107-110.
30. Granon, S., Passetti, F., Thomas, K.L., Dalley, J.W., Everitt, B.J., Robbins, T.W., Enhanced and impaired attentional performance after infusion of D1 dopaminergic receptor agents into rat prefrontal cortex. J. Neurosci, 2000. 20(3): p. 1208-1215.
31. Castellanos, F.X., Giedd, J.N., Marsh, W.L., Hamburger, S.D., Vaituzis, A.C., Dickstein, D.P., Quantitative brain magnetic resonance imaging in attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. Arch Gen Psychiatry, 1996. 53: p. 607-616.
32. Russell, V., Dopamine hypofunction possibly results from a defect in glutamate-stimulated release of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens shell of a rat model for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder - the spontaneously hypertensive rat. Neuroscience and Biobehavioural Reviews, 2003. 27(7): p. 671-682.
33. Russell, V., Allie, S., Wiggins, T., Increased noradrenergic activity in prefrontal cortex slives of an animal model for attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder - the spontaneously hypertensive rat. Behavioural Brain Research, 2000. 117(1-2): p. 69-74.
34. Russell, V., de Villiers, A., Sagvolden, T., Lamm, M., Taljaard, J., Altered dopaminergic function in the prefrontal cortex, nucleus accumbens and caudate-putamen of an animal model of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder - the spontaneously hypertensive rat. Brain Research, 1995. 676(2): p. 343-351.
35. Bymaster, F.P., Katner, J.S., Nelson, D.L., Hemrick-Luecke, S.K., Threlkeld, P.G., Heiligenstein, J.H., Morin, S.M., Gehlert, D.R., Perry, K.W., Atomoxetine increases extracellular levels of norepinephrine and dopamine in prefrontal cortex of rat: a potential mechanism for efficacy in attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Neuropsychopharmacology, 2003. 27(5): p. 699-711.
36. Carey, M.P., Diewald, L.M., Esposito, F.J., Pallicanco, M.P., Gironi Carnevale, U.A., Sergeant, J.A., Papa, M., Sadile, A.G., Differential distribution, affinity, and plasticity of dopamine D-1 and D-2 receptors in the target sites of the mesolimbic system in an animal model of ADHD. Behavioural Brain Research, 1998. 94(1): p. 173-185.
37. Papa, M., Diewald, L., Carey, M.P., Esposito, F.J., Gironi Carnevale, U.A., Sadile, A.G., A rostro-caudal dissociation in the dorsal and ventral striatum of the juvenile SHR suggests an anterior hypo- and a posterior hyperfunctioning mesocorticolimbic system. Behavioural Brain Research, 2002. 130(1): p. 171-179.
38. Sagvolden, T., Metzger, M.A., Schiorbeck, H.K., Rugland, A.L., Spinnangr, L., Sagvolden, G., The spontaneously hypertensive rat (SHR) as an animal model of childhood hyperreactivity (ADHD); changed reactivity to reinforcers and to psychomotor stimulants. Behav Neural Biol, 1992. 58: p. 103-112.
39. Pycock, C.J., Carter, C.J., Kerwin, R.W.,, Effect of 6-hydroxydopamine lesions of the medial prefrontal cortex on neurotransmitter systems in subcortical sites in the rat. J Neurochem, 1980. 34: p. 91-99.
40. Sullivan, R.M., Szechtman, H., Asymmetrical influence of mesocortical dopamine depletion on stress ucler development and subcortical dopamine systems in rats: implactions for psychopathology. Neuroscience, 1995. 65: p. 757-766.
41. Simon, H., Dopaminergic A10 neurons and the frontal system (author's transl). J. Physiol (Paris), 1981. 77(1): p. 81-95.


:)

Thank you. That was informative ;)

Where did you get this information? It is generally accepted knowledge that this condition in rats is called MANIA, not ADHD. If the brain is one way on dopamine, you get Parkinson's. If the other, you get mania. Not ADHD, that I know of. Although this dopamine thing would partly explain why ADHD and bipolar disorder are so often comorbid, I would like to see your source. :)

Let me help you with that.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/ucdhs/health/a-z/30AttentionDHD/doc30causes.html

http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/adhd/causes.shtml

http://www.raysahelian.com/dopamine.html

http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_causes_attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder_000030_3.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/home/bphoenix1/adhdct.html

http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,4501,00.html

http://www.viactiv.com/vcrc/article.jhtml?id=vcrc/articles/symptoms/adult/ad_causesofadhd.inc

:)

Just for the record, I don't really know if I have an opinion. This was spurred by a friend who was asking me these questions. He has ADHD, but he hates his Ritalin and is allergic I think to Adderall. He doesn't think that ADHD is real. He says that he's just hyper sometimes and he has trouble concentrating, and the medicine's not really helping, and why take it if it makes him irritable and changes his personality? I don't know what to tell him.

Btw I'm glad your medicine is so helpful to you, dev. You are quite lucky in that regard. And I'm trying to be open-minded by seeking opinions from others to use in developing my own.

<3 Mary




ADD isn't just kids being kids, it could be mistaken for it sometimes tho. But I am 16 and I have been diagnosed with ADD since the 3rd grade. Yes, the medication helps. It is not just me being me anymore, I should be able to pay attetion to something in school for more than 2 min.

And before I was put on Adderall I was overweight but since one, the only in my case, of the sideffects are decreased appatite I lost weight. And when I don't take it I have an extreme urge to eat, even though I am not hungry and I never get full. Ha! gluttony!

Since your friend hates Ritalin and is allergic to Adderall tell him to try Flaxseed Oil. My mom's friend said that that is what her son takes and it does the same thing as the other 2 medications.

If you don't mind me asking, why does your friend not like taking Ritalin? I didn't like it either, it made me a damn zombie.

If you don't mind me asking, why does your friend not like taking Ritalin? I didn't like it either, it made me a damn zombie.

He said it makes him feel like he's a different person, like he's not himself. I guess that's kinda like feeling like a zombie.

<3 Mary

ADD And ADHD have been around for ages my dad has it and because it wasn't diagnosed back then he was told he was naughty and was tied to the clothes line or the stairs in hopes he'd burn off excess energy.

My brother also has is and takes Dexamphetamine this calm him down alot, also some teachers don't help they sometimes ignore him and that just frustrates him.

For Those of you in australia,In Neighbours Have you seen how the medication completley makes stingray a Zombie??? That is a case of medicine working too much.

I don't know much seeing as I'm just a kid but my friends father is a doctor and he is also my doctor. I went into his office because people thought I had ADHD. He wouldn't prescribe me anything because he thinks it doesn't exist. Now, I don't know his points but he the doctor! By the way, it turns out I had PTSD (and that DOES exist)

Peace-Love-Unity

ADHD is a brain imbalance...doctors are working with kids to help control their mood swings...apparantley, all these kids need to do is stand up straight! I don't know what it is, it's just someone in their brain that's a bit wonky, and this supposedly helps it!

k...I have been diagnosed with ADHD.

I think ADD came to be when people couldn't bear with how kids don't pay attention...it's a kid thing though. They're still young and new to the world, trying to grasp as much as they can. So they get distracted when something attracts their attention more than their parent's or some teacher's ramblings about something they don't really care about. It's a totally natural thing.

I believe people couldn't handle it, and found out what exactly caused it. So they came out with a pill to "cure" the "problem"--which was a totally natural thing. And thus it begins.

Some inattentiveness in children is worse than others, to an extreme...but not the extreme number of children we see.

And there's the extreme of attentive adults that can't grasp why children don't listen.

Yes, a lot of times it is hard for me to concentrate on what I want to. But I don't think I should have to take a pill for that. It also has to do with personality type a bit too...a lot of times my parents don't understand me, my viewpoint on things, why I get outraged at certain principles I hold being thrown out the window. You know why I get upset? It's because I'm not being listened to, yet if they had their way I'd be taking meds so that I would be listening to them. Fuck that.

Yes, the medicine would probably help me concentrate more. But I don't believe I have an illness as they would let me believe...I believe a good majority of the population out there have the same problems...and therefore it shouldn't be diagnosed as a disease.

I also have my own principles against taking medication all together...but I'll save that for another debate.

I think ADD came to be when people couldn't bear with how kids don't pay attention...it's a kid thing though. They're still young and new to the world, trying to grasp as much as they can. So they get distracted when something attracts their attention more than their parent's or some teacher's ramblings about something they don't really care about. It's a totally natural thing.

Which would explain why adults have it... :rolleyes:

I'm not sure about that, mate. In Switzerland, docs have been proscribing MDMA (that funky chemical of which Ecstasy is a derivative) for ages to combat a range of problems from depression to (what is now known as) ADD. that's an amphetamine - I'm sure the research is there. Damned if I'd know how to find it, mind you.

I don't know how I missed this before but....*moves to Switzerland*
;)

I never said adults didn't have it...it's just not as noticable in adults.

I did say it was a kid thing...I shouldn't have, you're right...just because it started in children doesn't mean it goes away in adults. It doesn't go away...some adults just learn how to deal with it or hide it better than others.

And I think many adults don't realize they have it/aren't diagnosed with it until later in their lives.

I never said adults didn't have it...it's just not as noticable in adults.


Um, no (http://www.adultadd.com/).

And there's the extreme of attentive adults that can't grasp why children don't listen.
Maybe we should medicate THEM.

<3 Mary

I'm not sure about that, mate. In Switzerland, docs have been proscribing MDMA (that funky chemical of which Ecstasy is a derivative) for ages to combat a range of problems from depression to (what is now known as) ADD. that's an amphetamine - I'm sure the research is there. Damned if I'd know how to find it, mind you.

Ecstasy is a MDMA drug yes, but is not necessarily considered an amphetamine when describing it. It is a methylenedioxy, but uses methamphetamine (hence the MDMA), rather then (MDA) methylenedioxy-amphetamine. MDMA is usually not used as a pharmaceutical drug and is more or less considered what they call a designer drug. MDMA has most likely never been used as an antidepressant-ADD (atleast I would hope not), as there are enough readily available alternatives to such (Celexa, Luvox, Paxil, Prozak, and Zoloft) which are SSRI's, and have much less if any, negatives connotations surrounding them. Also, MDMA has post syndrome effects such as anxiety, tiredness, exaustion, and most importantly depression, it is a wonder to me why it would be describe to someone who is already suffering from such.

I can however understand why it's used for ADHD, but I would think given the alternatives (ritalin), it is really not as common as people believe.

Oh, and love you Head. :D ;)

Here are some symptoms: Fidgety, distracted, has trouble in social situations, easily frustrated, seems constantly angry, poor grades, High IQ (150 or better) , focusses well on singular problems and solves them very quickly, very active imagination, authority problem especially where parents are involved, self-criticizes excessively, scores 1400 or higher on SAT and above 98th percentile on standardized National tests, yet lags at the last 5-10% of classes

I've been told that this is ADHD. . back when I grew up they called it "The kid is bored out of his mind because you have not disciplined him properly and he is outrunning every one of his classmates, but we can't advance him because his grades are so poor, and oh yeah, he's totaly pissed cause you as parents are failing miserably and he has no one to turn to."

I've know family with kids diagnosed with ADHD. . the kids can play on the computer for hours and never waver. . take them away from it and ask them to do something that requires a bit of thought and they totally lose it, become distracted, and refuse to interact. A 3rd child in the same family showed the same symptoms as the first two, but was not ADHD. he was just imitating the first two. Which brings me to an observation I made over time. .Whenever the Father (a remarried widower)was present, the children bounced off the walls. . They were also forbidden sugared foods, but given Tea to drink (which seems very counterproductive to me due to the very high caffeine levels) and punishment?? HAHAHA what's THAT???? Whenever I was present things calmed down a bit. . if he was not present and I was, it was a pretty calm household and the kids all interacted well together, even outside the home (okay this is a bit simplistically put, there were variances, but it is a consistent trend) If I helped the kids with their homework, it got done. . if he did it, it was a bad scene usually. If other people (especially those who did not put up with kids BS) came over similar behavioural changes took place.

My "opinion" is that although ADD or ADHD may actually exist, these children could have been straightened out without the need for drugs, simply by instituting discipline into their lives. Long term and consistent guidance and discipline seemed to be the keys to more level-headed children in this family. And the proof for this opinion? The oldest boy, at 15, quit taking the ritolin because he was tired of what it did to his head. He told me about it (but amazingly, not his parents) before he did it. His independence grew very quickly after he went off the meds, but his grades also came up. Yes, he was confrontational, and angry, and confused at times, especially while at home, but he also got a job at 16, saved every penny and bought his own car within a year. His parents almost lost THEIR minds trying to figure out how to keep him controlled, and he left home after graduating when his 18th birthday came around.

I do not doubt that ADD and derivatives of it exist, but you have to wonder if drugs are ALWAYS the answer to it. In some cases I'm sure they help, but IMO by modifying the behaviour to be more calm and focussed, rather than by forcing the brain to work properly. After seeing this, though, I find myself wondering. . how much of it is actually a disciplinary problem, a social problem caused by bad parenting, or an imbalance/chemical problem with the brain?

BTW, the first paragraph is me. . from 1-10 grades. . then I started being able to figure out that the examples and "ideals" given to me by my parents were total BS. . . and my Senior year I got a 3.5 GPA, and left home 3 months after graduation. .I have not been back very often since then. You gotta ask. . was it ADD, ADHD, or just bad parenting? Unfortunately, if it's the latter, a lot of "bad habits" are still to be redressed ..some things just canot be unlearned.

I too also know 3 different kids who have been diagnosed with ADHD. Their ability to sit and concentrate for long periods of time on something they want to do is definitely present, because I'm there with them doing some of these activities sometimes. The problem only comes about when they're in school or doing something they have no interest in. I also happen to know that there is no discipline whatsoever in the households. They can get away with anything. I've been to their houses multiple times and observed this myself. And yes... I know that 3 data points isn't a good sample population blah blah blah... but given the post by Kris^ above and my own observations, I noticed a little trend that all of the ADHD kids I know have parents with no disciplinary skills whatsoever. They're lazy and would rather sit on their ass watching TV than go lay down the law to their unruly kid.

I don't dismiss the possibility that a few kids might have a genuine disorder as described by the symptoms of ADHD, but I have a very strong feeling that most of it is BS.

My sister has ADHD and when she started to take the medicine she started to get better grades and focus in school. So I would say it is real from what I have observed. How about learning disabilities you could go as far as saying those aren’t real either. When it might be something as simple as the kid just not caring enough to want to try. Or something like that any way.

My "opinion" is that although ADD or ADHD may actually exist, these children could have been straightened out without the need for drugs, simply by instituting discipline into their lives.You're right, I just need someone to discipline me.

Either that or you pulled that entire thing out of your ass, and you really have no idea how science actually works. Chemical imbalances are not made up Kris, they are real, is it really so hard to fathom the idea that such variations may have consequences? Not having the ability to concentrate on a given subject for long periods of time, cannot be solved by discipline. You cannot and should not scold a child for not understand something, or for being fidgety during class, as these are not thing that a child can help.

For me, I have always had a very hard time multi-tasking. Even to this day, if I have more the a few things on the go at any given time, you can be sure one, if not most of them, will be forgotten. In school, I would do awesome in one class, and yet be failing every other one. What did they do about it? They decided to give me one subject at a time, take my tests, then onto the next one. Trust me, it did wonders.

The only thing that I slightly agree with you on is the drugs. I believe that drugs should only be used as a last resort when it comes to ADD, but definetly used for ADHD. It really depends on the situation though, as everyone reacts differently.

You're right, I just need someone to discipline me.

Either that or you pulled that entire thing out of your ass, and you really have no idea how science actually works. Chemical imbalances are not made up Kris, they are real, is it really so hard to fathom the idea that such variations may have consequences? Not having the ability to concentrate on a given subject for long periods of time, cannot be solved by discipline. You cannot and should not scold a child for not understand something, or for being fidgety during class, as these are not thing that a child can help.

For me, I have always had a very hard time multi-tasking. Even to this day, if I have more the a few things on the go at any given time, you can be sure one, if not most of them, will be forgotten. In school, I would do awesome in one class, and yet be failing every other one. What did they do about it? They decided to give me one subject at a time, take my tests, then onto the next one. Trust me, it did wonders.

The only thing that I slightly agree with you on is the drugs. I believe that drugs should only be used as a last resort when it comes to ADD, but definetly used for ADHD. It really depends on the situation though, as everyone reacts differently.

uh Fallen Angelia . that's pure bunk. ANY child who can concentrate on a computer game for HOURS doesn't have a "chemical imbalance" that stops them from concentrating. Take the video game away (As I did more than once) and it was temper tantrums, crying fits, and things getting thrown around. The parents would always acquiesce and give in. . I wouldn't (Loved being a baby sitter) THAT, my dear, is a DISCIPLINE problem, and since I am a pretty disciplined person, and would not put up with their spoiled rotten brat BS, they knew that I would come down hard on them. When the power went down for 3 days in the middle of an icestorm (Very rare here in Charlotte), it was ME who got firewood, told stories, made sure the kids behaved, while their mom took care of the house and their dad went in every direction trying to get nothing done. It was almost amazing how attentive and focused these "ADHD" kids were when out in the woods using axes and saws to cut up deadfall. Why? Because they were having fun, and their Father was not around to make excuses for their misbehaviour. You should have seen the worst of these kids play CHESS. ..a more boring game was never invented. . he'd spend hours trying to beat me. Hand them a GO board and they'd be all over it. . again, the game takes concentration.

The school I attended for 6-12 grade has ALWAYS taught the way you outline, except they did it for an entire curriculum, over the entire school year. Every child learns better that way, instead of inundating them with homework and too much information on a variety of subjects. Every day, at work, I have 4-6 things going at the same time. . Every day I have to backtrack occasionally to get things sorted out, but I also out-produce my contemporaries on the order of 20-25% in productivity (Being a line Master Tech means productivity is a BIG issue. . you're paid on commission) Does this sound like I have ADD or ADHD? (my Mom sure claims it) Human beings are not computers. . getting distracted is normal.

Now, instead of accusing me of lying and making things up, why don't you listen to a lot of OTHER people who say the exact same things, or relate similar stories. Observed behaviour differences of these children between non-disciplined and disciplined environments is startling in most cases. Most of it correlates with anger, lack of discipline, and no fear of reprisal, and fear of failure. ADD and ADHD may exist. . but certainly not to the extent you claim.

uh Fallen Angelia . that's pure bunk. ANY child who can concentrate on a computer game for HOURS doesn't have a "chemical imbalance" that stops them from concentrating. Take the video game away (As I did more than once) and it was temper tantrums, crying fits, and things getting thrown around. The parents would always acquiesce and give in. . I wouldn't (Loved being a baby sitter) THAT, my dear, is a DISCIPLINE problem, and since I am a pretty disciplined person, and would not put up with their spoiled rotten brat BS, they knew that I would come down hard on them. When the power went down for 3 days in the middle of an icestorm (Very rare here in Charlotte), it was ME who got firewood, told stories, made sure the kids behaved, while their mom took care of the house and their dad went in every direction trying to get nothing done. It was almost amazing how attentive and focused these "ADHD" kids were when out in the woods using axes and saws to cut up deadfall. Why? Because they were having fun, and their Father was not around to make excuses for their misbehaviour. You should have seen the worst of these kids play CHESS. ..a more boring game was never invented. . he'd spend hours trying to beat me. Hand them a GO board and they'd be all over it. . again, the game takes concentration.

The school I attended for 6-12 grade has ALWAYS taught the way you outline, except they did it for an entire curriculum, over the entire school year. Every child learns better that way, instead of inundating them with homework and too much information on a variety of subjects. Every day, at work, I have 4-6 things going at the same time. . Every day I have to backtrack occasionally to get things sorted out, but I also out-produce my contemporaries on the order of 20-25% in productivity (Being a line Master Tech means productivity is a BIG issue. . you're paid on commission) Does this sound like I have ADD or ADHD? (my Mom sure claims it) Human beings are not computers. . getting distracted is normal.

Now, instead of accusing me of lying and making things up, why don't you listen to a lot of OTHER people who say the exact same things, or relate similar stories. Observed behaviour differences of these children between non-disciplined and disciplined environments is startling in most cases. Most of it correlates with anger, lack of discipline, and no fear of reprisal, and fear of failure. ADD and ADHD may exist. . but certainly not to the extent you claim.
Yes, because some children may have a discipline problem, that means that all children that "are said to have ADD/ADHD" do.

And before you slam me with "I never said ADD/ADHD didn't exist" or something to that extent, I know that you said it may exist. But your experience with one family and your claim that "a lot of OTHER people who say the exact same things" doesn't mean anything in this debate. I'm sorry.

And because a child may have a discipline problem, this also automatically means that he doesn't have a chemical imbalance, right? Along with, if he can concentrate well on a video game, then he can concentrate well on anything?

If you want to be even remotely convincing, Kris^, your best bet is to provide actual evidence other than just "what people say" and "what brings you to the observation".

Some things are a bit more difficult to understand or comprehend than others. There is a world of difference between playing a video game and concentrating on a difficult math subject.

Do you always take things at face value, and derive conclusions based solely on what you believe without actually looking into it?

Yes, because some children may have a discipline problem, that means that all children that "are said to have ADD/ADHD" do.

And before you slam me with "I never said ADD/ADHD didn't exist" or something to that extent, I know that you said it may exist. But your experience with one family and your claim that "a lot of OTHER people who say the exact same things" doesn't mean anything in this debate. I'm sorry.

And because a child may have a discipline problem, this also automatically means that he doesn't have a chemical imbalance, right? Along with, if he can concentrate well on a video game, then he can concentrate well on anything?

If you want to be even remotely convincing, Kris^, your best bet is to provide actual evidence other than just "what people say" and "what brings you to the observation".

Some things are a bit more difficult to understand or comprehend than others. There is a world of difference between playing a video game and concentrating on a difficult math subject.

Do you always take things at face value, and derive conclusions based solely on what you believe without actually looking into it?

All right Shiver. . PROVE the chemical imbalance was not caused by a discipline problem. . lots of chemicals are generated inside the brain due to emotional stimuli such as fear, anger, happines. . etc . .Prove the "imbalance" is not NORMAL, if it even exists. A high incidence of certain chemicals or hormones attributed to many external influences, such as diet, exercise, stress, or chemical pathogens (carpet outgassing is a BIGGEE. .as are paint and plastic outgassing and other chemicals in our homes) Also, while you are at it, explain why the children both Machine Head and I, and many other people, have been around, who have responded to a "strong hand". And then there is the "allergic reaction" factor that is often totally ignored, wherein sensitivity to things that others find mundane will totally set a childs world on it's head.

Doping a kid up with mood changing drugs should be the last step ..way too often it's the first.

Then there's THIS question . .why are we trying so HARD to regulate behaviour instead of accepting that kids have a of ton of energy and need good parenting and guidance in order to do well? Especially when we attempt to regulate behavour through the use of drugs that soon lose their effect and must be used in ever stronger dosages or replaced by a new little "magic pill". Timothy Leary is probably cheering his ass off right now at our psych. community .. they are doing exactly what he promoted for so many years. . doping ourselves up into oblivion. That magic cure-all drug is coming soon. . the one that wil turn us all into happy little mind-numbed zombies who never fight or have differences. Won't that just be wonderful when it gets here? Then everyone will be "normal" . .how boring.

We've given over the basic concepts of PARENTING to the doctors and drug peddlers. . I'm glad no one can order me to take ritolin. . . yet.

All right Shiver. . PROVE the chemical imbalance was not caused by a discipline problem
Thank you, Kris^.

I never said where the chemical imbalances came from, did I?

Although there are many different reasons, and none of them are the child's fault and may render ADD.

I didn't even look at the rest of your post, by the way.

You're right, I just need someone to discipline me.
Disciplines joo, and luuurves every minute of it.

<3 Mary

I'm glad no one can order me to take ritolin. . . yet.

You don't fancy trying it anyway, do you? As a personal favour to me?

Start off with about a half a kilo per day. That should have the desired calming effect.

You don't fancy trying it anyway, do you? As a personal favour to me?

Start off with about a half a kilo per day. That should have the desired calming effect.

You sure bout that Head. . a half ki might be a tad low of a dosage for me. . .better just start an intravenous drip. :)

BTW . .I'm diagnosed mildly bi-polar. . the docs wanted to put me on Lithium. . I just gave them hell for not having the ability to have really good emotional reactions to things. . life must be really boring for people with a centrist emotionalism. . Eccentricity is really a very fun way to be. :D

not having the ability to have really good emotional reactions to things

I wonder why they considered you mildly bipolar. =p And its not really...an acquired skill that you hone and train so you can...have 'good emotion reactions' to things.

uh Fallen Angelia . that's pure bunk. ANY child who can concentrate on a computer game for HOURS doesn't have a "chemical imbalance" that stops them from concentrating. Take the video game away (As I did more than once) and it was temper tantrums, crying fits, and things getting thrown around. The parents would always acquiesce and give in. . I wouldn't (Loved being a baby sitter) THAT, my dear, is a DISCIPLINE problem, and since I am a pretty disciplined person, and would not put up with their spoiled rotten brat BS, they knew that I would come down hard on them. When the power went down for 3 days in the middle of an icestorm (Very rare here in Charlotte), it was ME who got firewood, told stories, made sure the kids behaved, while their mom took care of the house and their dad went in every direction trying to get nothing done. It was almost amazing how attentive and focused these "ADHD" kids were when out in the woods using axes and saws to cut up deadfall. Why? Because they were having fun, and their Father was not around to make excuses for their misbehaviour. You should have seen the worst of these kids play CHESS. ..a more boring game was never invented. . he'd spend hours trying to beat me. Hand them a GO board and they'd be all over it. . again, the game takes concentration.
Wow, cool story. What does kids from one particular (apparently screwed up) family, have to do with every other child and having ADHD? You just listed one small group (is it even a group?) of children, all from the same family, that all have the same issues.. gee, I wonder where the problems extend from? ;P

I'm not talking children who watch t.v all day, or are glued to video games, because obviously they are not suffering. I am talking children who are hyperactive, who shake violently when getting overworked, who literally cannot slow down; children who cannot concentrate on one thing for extended periods of time. That is ADHD. The children you describe are quite the opposite it seems, and certainly not relevant to this debate.

The school I attended for 6-12 grade has ALWAYS taught the way you outline, except they did it for an entire curriculum, over the entire school year. Every child learns better that way, instead of inundating them with homework and too much information on a variety of subjects. Every day, at work, I have 4-6 things going at the same time. . Every day I have to backtrack occasionally to get things sorted out, but I also out-produce my contemporaries on the order of 20-25% in productivity (Being a line Master Tech means productivity is a BIG issue. . you're paid on commission) Does this sound like I have ADD or ADHD? (my Mom sure claims it) Human beings are not computers. . getting distracted is normal.

Getting distracted is normal, but you also don't actually have ADD. Having it, means more then just forgetting things here and there. It's about actually getting lost in them, and completely blanking out on just about everything. Yes there are way around this, and you can bet I have learned them. I am probably the most productive manager at times, so long as I don't get behind and I am not overwhelmed. Keeping a daily list of things that need to get done is a major support for me, and has helped me immensily through a lot of tough situations, but that doesn't mean that problems do not exist. There is really no way around an overbooked day, or an overload of paperwork, while dealing with a your staff. My case is considered borderline, and I still have struggles, especially when it comes to organization.

Now, instead of accusing me of lying and making things up, why don't you listen to a lot of OTHER people who say the exact same things, or relate similar stories. Observed behaviour differences of these children between non-disciplined and disciplined environments is startling in most cases. Most of it correlates with anger, lack of discipline, and no fear of reprisal, and fear of failure. ADD and ADHD may exist. . but certainly not to the extent you claim.First off, who are these other people, and why should I listen to them again? I know enough of this on my own, to come to my own judgement. You on the other hand seem to know very little, and sound more like you're intersted in debating disciplinary actions against children, the a chemical disease. Just so you're aware, there are not the same thing.

Structure and routine should be an important role in every child's life, whether they have an imbalance or not. But we're not talking children who are let loose to their own free will here, we're talking children who come from all walks of life, who have been struggling with these problems since it was toddlers or sometimes even younger.

Wow, cool story. What does kids from one particular (apparently screwed up) family, have to do with every other child and having ADHD? You just listed one small group (is it even a group?) of children, all from the same family, that all have the same issues.. gee, I wonder where the problems extend from? ;P

I'm not talking children who watch t.v all day, or are glued to video games, because obviously they are not suffering. I am talking children who are hyperactive, who shake violently when getting overworked, who literally cannot slow down; children who cannot concentrate on one thing for extended periods of time. That is ADHD. The children you describe are quite the opposite it seems, and certainly not relevant to this debate.



Getting distracted is normal, but you also don't actually have ADD. Having it, means more then just forgetting things here and there. It's about actually getting lost in them, and completely blanking out on just about everything. Yes there are way around this, and you can bet I have learned them. I am probably the most productive manager at times, so long as I don't get behind and I am not overwhelmed. Keeping a daily list of things that need to get done is a major support for me, and has helped me immensily through a lot of tough situations, but that doesn't mean that problems do not exist. There is really no way around an overbooked day, or an overload of paperwork, while dealing with a your staff. My case is considered borderline, and I still have struggles, especially when it comes to organization.

First off, who are these other people, and why should I listen to them again? I know enough of this on my own, to come to my own judgement. You on the other hand seem to know very little, and sound more like you're intersted in debating disciplinary actions against children, the a chemical disease. Just so you're aware, there are not the same thing.

Structure and routine should be an important role in every child's life, whether they have an imbalance or not. But we're not talking children who are let loose to their own free will here, we're talking children who come from all walks of life, who have been struggling with these problems since it was toddlers or sometimes even younger.

What it illustrates is that diagnosed ADD is not always the case Angelia. . I've had teens come up and the first thing they say is "I have ADD" . .. uh. . right . . sure you do. Then they go play video games for a few hours. . . Its never a dysfunction until they have to do something they do not WANT to do . .then the ADD kicks in .sort of like selective hearing. You need to pay attention to other posters on this thread who say the same thing (Ask Machinehead what you asked me. . . ) I'm not the only one who sees these things or who has come to this conclusion.

As for knowing very little. . sorry Angelia. . at 12-15 I would have been diagnosed ADD or ADHD . . . .because I exhibitted the same lack of focus so many kids today have when they are "ADD". I'm still wondering what caused your "condition", and if it's reversible.

As for the kids who are hyper and a bit spastic. . what are they eating, drinking (Caffeine is a BIG problem) did their mothers abuse substances or smoke during pregnancy, are there allergy reactive things in the home, and do they get any sleep? ( I "Bounced" constantly when I was a kid .. my nerves were shot by my alcoholic parents. . . and the tension in the house was unbelievable sometimes) There are just so many factors that the diagnosis of ADD or ADHD seems extremely subjective. . and an easy way out instead of solving what may be an environmental or disciplinary problem instead of a physiological one.

Well...since you seem to base ADD/ADHD around kids and disciplining them...

What about adult ADD or ADHD? Is it cuz they were not disciplined well as children?

Well...since you seem to base ADD/ADHD around kids and disciplining them...

What about adult ADD or ADHD? Is it cuz they were not disciplined well as children?


First off, Nemo, no one is saying that ADD/ADHD do not exist, rather that the prevalence of ADD/ADHD is overblown and a blanket diagnosis of the condition is used to cover a large number of behavioural problems.

Secondly, as evidenced in my own example of a 3-child group, the youngest attempted to ACT like the others, even though he had no problems with concentrating or being calm. this was definitely a LEARNED behavioural problem in his case.

Third, no one has ever pinpointed a discrete reason/pathogen for ADD/ADHD. . they only group a certain set of behaviours under the category then say that children with the condition need X or Y or Z to control it. Tests may be run, and all sorts of analysis performed, but in the end, do doctors KNOW what causes ADD/ADHD, or are they merely trying to control a set of behavioural "abnormalities" with drugs? Someone PLEASE define "Normal" for me?

Fourth, in many cases, the simple test of handing a person a video game to play disproves the diagnosis of ADD/ADHD. If you can concentrate on a game for a half hour or more, then why can't you concentrate on other tasks as well? Herein lies the argument that discipline is necessary, not therapy or drugs. (Video games bore me to death. . . .I'd fail this one miserably. . . )

Fifth . .the number of factors involved in a persons psyche and behaviour is infinite .. Allergies, Diet, chemicals, Caffeine, preservatives, stress, emotions like fear or anger, addiction to certain substances or damage to a developing brain while in the womb due to a Mothers use of drugs (including tobacco and alcohol), and even certain sounds, smells, and colors can all cause extreme psycho-physical problems. I've heard "we can't let them have Sugar, Caffeine, Chocolate, etc etc etc", so many itmes it seems to be amazing that no one has promoted Homeopathic cures and therapy over "Miracle Drugs".

2 days ago, while I was working, I had a mild vertigo attack .. 3 operations on my left ear have done WONDERFUL things to my balance centers, and the ITCH inside the middle of my head can be maddening . .was I distracted? oh YEAH. . was I hyper? you better believe it. Did it cause really bad mood swings. uh YUP . everything from a depressive funk to extreme anger and nervousness to a mildly euphoric drunkeness. . . I basically had to get my boss and explain to him (oh the control necessary not to YELL) what was going on. . . Please just stay AWAY from me till this passes. . . . .which took almost 5 hours. Next day I was fine, and my usual fun self. . .I'd bet an outside observor would have been seeing ADD/ADHD because I sure couldn't concentrate and was very distracted. The worst part is. . there's NO CURE. I've lived with it for some 20+ years. . .

That's just one example of a physiological behaviour reaction that is NOT ADD, yet someone watchng me would have sworn I was a classic case of the condition. How many gazilliions of factors in our lives can cause similar reactions? And how many times is it that lazy parenting has allowed such an extreme lack of discipline that kids never develop control over their urges? Then how many cases are actually a dysfunction that necessitates drugs to control it?

So, Nemo, there's your answer, as long-winded as it is. ADD may exist.. now what is it? And when are people going to quit trying to label themselves? Its too pat . .its too convenient. .its just too LAZY. . "You have ADD" . . like hell I do. I have an itch I can't scratch!!!

"What is it?" Kris^ asks.

DSM-IV Criteria for a Diagnosis of ADHD

A. Either 1 or 2:
1. Six or more of the following symptoms of inattention
have persisted for at least six months to a degree
that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level:

a. Often fails to give close attention to details or makes
careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities
b. Often has difficulty sustaining attention in
tasks or play activities
c. Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly
d. Often does not follow through on instructions and fails
to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace
(not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand
instructions)
e. Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities
f. Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks
that require sustained mental effort (such as homework)
g. Often loses things necessary for tasks or activities (toys,
school assignments, pencils, books, or tools)
h. Is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli
i. Is often forgetful in daily activities

2. Six or more of the following symptoms of hyperactivity-
impulsivity have persisted for at least six months to a
degree that is maladaplive and inconsistent with developmental level:

Hyperactivity
a. Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat
b. Often leaves seat in classroom or in other
situations in which remaining seated is expected
c. Often runs about or climbs excessively in situations in which it is
inappropriate (in adolescents or adults, may be limited to
subjective feelings of restlessness)
d. Often has difficulty playing or engaging in
leisure activities quietly
e. Is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor"
f. Often talks excessively

Impulsivity
g. Often blurts out answers before questions have been completed
h. Often has difficulty awaiting turn
i. Often interrupts or intrudes on others (such
as butting into conversations or games)

B. Some hyperactive, impulsive, or inattentive symptoms that
caused impairment were present before age 7 years
C. Some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more
settings (such as in school or work and at home)
D. There must be clear evidence of clinically significant
impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning
E. The symptoms do not occur exclusively during the course
of a pervasive developmental disorder, schizophrenia, or another
psychotic disorder and are not better accounted for by another
mental disorder (such as a mood, anxiety, dissociative, or
personality disorder)

Thanks for that, Mary - that was really cool and informative. :)

And thanks to Kris^ for letting us know that the cure is just a damn good spanking and being told to pull your socks up.

"What is it?" Kris^ asks.

DSM-IV Criteria for a Diagnosis of ADHD

A. Either 1 or 2:
1. Six or more of the following symptoms of inattention
have persisted for at least six months to a degree
that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level:

a. Often fails to give close attention to details or makes
careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities
b. Often has difficulty sustaining attention in
tasks or play activities
c. Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly
d. Often does not follow through on instructions and fails
to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace
(not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand
instructions)
e. Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities
f. Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks
that require sustained mental effort (such as homework)
g. Often loses things necessary for tasks or activities (toys,
school assignments, pencils, books, or tools)
h. Is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli
i. Is often forgetful in daily activities

2. Six or more of the following symptoms of hyperactivity-
impulsivity have persisted for at least six months to a
degree that is maladaplive and inconsistent with developmental level:

Hyperactivity
a. Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat
b. Often leaves seat in classroom or in other
situations in which remaining seated is expected
c. Often runs about or climbs excessively in situations in which it is
inappropriate (in adolescents or adults, may be limited to
subjective feelings of restlessness)
d. Often has difficulty playing or engaging in
leisure activities quietly
e. Is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor"
f. Often talks excessively

Impulsivity
g. Often blurts out answers before questions have been completed
h. Often has difficulty awaiting turn
i. Often interrupts or intrudes on others (such
as butting into conversations or games)

B. Some hyperactive, impulsive, or inattentive symptoms that
caused impairment were present before age 7 years
C. Some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more
settings (such as in school or work and at home)
D. There must be clear evidence of clinically significant
impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning
E. The symptoms do not occur exclusively during the course
of a pervasive developmental disorder, schizophrenia, or another
psychotic disorder and are not better accounted for by another
mental disorder (such as a mood, anxiety, dissociative, or
personality disorder)


So, in other words. . if you cannot mosey on along like a sheep in the herd, you have ADD. . how nice.

Head. . you are full of . . .whatever. . you certainly aren't thinking.. . OR reading. . OR thinking some more. . guess you have ADD. .

So, in other words. . if you cannot mosey on along like a sheep in the herd, you have ADD. . how nice.Maybe you do have ADHD after all, Kris. You certainly didn't have the attention span necessary to read that list of symptoms.

And sheep move in flocks, not herds. Besides, I thought that was how you described Spain?

Head. . you are full of . . .whatever. . you certainly aren't thinking.. . OR reading. . OR thinking some more. . guess you have ADD. .No, I read it all just fine. If I were a charitable person, I'd try to accept that what you meant was 'I suspect ADHD is commonly over-diagnosed'. But since that isn't what you said, nor did you provide any evidence of that being true, I'll continue to believe what you came across as saying - which is that 'it's all the parent's fault, the kids drink too much coffee and what's wrong with hard discipline for noisy children anyway?'

I'll stop treating you like a glib, smug, arrogant, petty and small minded dickhead when you stop acting like one.

I know, I know... I'm the same. But at least I can be funny on occasion and don't have personal politics which lie slightly to the right of Genghis Khan...

And thanks to Kris^ for letting us know that the cure is just a damn good spanking and being told to pull your socks up.

Yay, thats why I dont have attention defic---Ooh, bird!! *chases*

i searched for a thread like this and see this one is VERY old, and decided to bring it back..hopefully.
it's not shocking to see just a dumb debate went on in here as in everywhere else on this subject... by the way, what i will write is probably going to be crazy scattered thoughts since i have adhd and it's 5am... excellent combo haha. :words:
first of all, since i know a lot of people think 'if little jonny can focus for 3 hrs on his nintendo, then why cant he do his math hw?' please just google "hyperfocusing". i dont remember seeing it in this thread, although it's possible it was..
it's annoying and pretty offensive when people say ad(h)d is fake. if it's so fake then why are they now able to do brain scans and see the chemical imbalance on MRI type things and diagnose people? personally i have not had that done, but the survey things my mom and teachers have filled out about me have been plenty. apparently my moms was off the charts b/c adhd or not, people are different at home then out in public. plus she gets to see me at homework time..
i have been diagnosed since age 4, but in school not placed into study skills or w/e until end of 6th grade. girls are generally more underdiagnosed then boys since they are generally not hyperactive, they are considered the "space cadet". looks like they are listening and taking notes, but really they are lost and dont want to bring attention to themselves or ask for help. i didnt act out in big classes, but just zoned out and fidgeted a lot. in small classes i was hyper and tried telling myself before entering class to sit still and pay attention... never happened. in school i was just considered lazy and not working hard enough. my report card frequently said that i was not applying myself enough while i felt i was giving 130%.
i did not want medication. i went on it in 3rd grade and it worked great, but came off of it b/c of the loss of appetite side effect. i went on and off meds during hs, but not too frequently. one of them changed me completly, similar to how someone in this thread mentioned there brothers friend- zombie-like. not all meds work the same for everyone. april of this year (senior year! woot!) i went on adderall again (that was what i took in 3rd grade) since i was older and could just try to force myself to eat while on it b/c of the loss of appetite side effect since i needed to focus and do my best to raise my GPA for many reasons. it did wonders... i understood math.. i actually knew what questions to ask in class instead of saying 'start over... it doesnt make sense' and then zoning out and staring at the ducks outside as the teacher tries to reexplain. most of the time i didnt even need to ask. i watched them to do the example on the board and it clicked.
the reason i was able to go so long without meds is b/c my mom stayed VERY involved with my schooling which drove my teachers and administration at school crazy, but if she hadnt there is no way i couldve made it so far. many teachers would not follow my IEP, thought i was lazy, etc.....
since starting meds though i got all As and Bs (honor roll!) for the very first time EVER in my 4th marking period of senior year.

sooo.. with that being said.. seems real to me..

there's a lot more i could say... but this is a little bit (wow...)

ADD and ADHD exists as there are scans, as the above poster stated, to diagnose it. It's some kind of chemical imbalance in the brain from what I have heard.
Having said that, there are FAR too many kids out there on drugs like Ritalin who do NOT have ADD or ADHD - every kid plays up and every kid will be a right little shit at times, and a lot of those kids are on drugs for ADD when they are just pains in the butts. They've been misdiagnosed, and I hate to think how many kids out there are taking Ritalin when there is nothing wrong with them.
I don't like the idea of diagnosing kids as young as three with ADD - how the hell can you tell if the kid has it at that age? Just because his mum says the kids a little brat doesn't mean jack shit. The kids three years old, he's going through that bad stage.
So I guess that could ask the question: How old does a child have to be before they can be diagnosed with ADD?
Older than three, thats for sure. I'd say about 6.
I don't like the idea of giving kids drugs eithor, there are better solutions out there. There is something called the DORE program that I have heard helps kids with ADD merely by helping them with their balance and standing up straight. It's yielded results so I wouldn't dismiss it.

Sometimes I think ADD is nothing more than an excuse for kids to act badly. Like, the kid might have ADD and be playing up, and the parent could say it's okay, he has ADD, like that's an explaination or a reason as to why their child is so misbehaved. ADD shouldn't be an excuse for bad behavior, and I would worry that kids are being misdiagnosed, or parents could be medicating their kids because they are easier to control etc.

There are ways to properly diagnose ADD but I doubt most children have had these tests to properly diagnose them, and thats the scary thing.

I might also add that I have read over other posts in this thread and they are quite interesting - I know ADD exists as proper tests can prove it, but at the same time, I do think alot of it is simple an excuse for bad behavior.

i agree there probably are a lot of kids being diagnosed and drugged and being labeled ADD as an excuse. some kids are just outgoing.. plain and simple.. its when it comes down to concentrating on tasks that most people are able to do is where the line is drawn and whether the kid is able to do it or not. not to mention the many other things that go along with having ADD.
i think to start the diagnosis at 4 is okay, but no meds unless it is absolutly necessary to do so. some levels of ADHD are pretty bad and some people need medication even outside of school. not just for their own sanity, but there families and everyone around them as well. chances are though, you wont know for sure until school starts for the child, so i agree 6 would probably be the best age at the earliest. especially for the ones who arent hyperactive and just space out a lot.
i have always had the option open to me of taking meds or not. my parents never forced it on me. whenever i was on meds my mom would frequently remind me that i could stop them at any point if thats what i wanted.
it was almost worse not being the child in class having the teachers beg to med me or w/e, b/c the school wouldnt even classify me and put me into the classes i needed to be in even though the doctors kept telling them to.
also, its funny you wrote using ADD as an excuse for being a bad kid/bad behavior b/c while that is true in a lot of cases it is not in all. ironically enough i have had that 'bad kid' title haha. when i was in a girl scout troop my leader spreaded around this rumor of having this like devil child in her troop, which of course was me. i was very very outgoing and hyper and hardly listened to what she had to say, b/c quite honestly arts and crafts every single meeting bored the hell out of me. a few years later i met a parent who had heard this rumor and told me about it, and when i said it was about me she was shocked. she thought back and had remembered seeing me at a few events and pretty much said she just thought i was a sweet, outgoing kid. thats the short version of the story... lol unfortunatly my leader didnt have my sense of humor..

I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was like 10. They made me take ritalin during school and it was very embaressing. This was BEFORE ADHD was a popular diagnosis in kids and I got made fun of A LOT for having to take ritalin.

This continued until I was in highschool. I was also diagnosed with borderline personality disorder by that time, but some amazing fruitcake doctor was convinced that I still had ADHD. SO they kept me on ritalin until I refused to take it any more cause I knew I didn't have ADHD. The funny thing was they did a test to see if the ritalin was really helping me and it wasn't. They had the teachers monitor me closely while I was on ritalin for a week and while I was off ritalin for a week. No one saw any difference in my behavior, so either I don't have ADHD or the ritalin wasn't working. In any case I have been told by two different psychiatrists that I do not have ADHD.

I believe that it's a real thing, because I've been diagnosed with BPD and I know all sorts of mental conditions exist. Now, do I think it's over diagnosed? Yes I do. I think kids are just going to be kid