I had a discussion in my history class about the War on Terror, and it triggered some ideas in my head. (No this thread has nothing to do withthe war, but that's what gave me the idea for this thread)

Everyone loves/is proud of their country, right? (Well almost) Most people are proud to say "<country name> is the best place on earth" However, with a deeper look at the underlining ideas of nationalism, or love of one's own nation, they're the same as rascism. Both are basically saying that one particular group of people are better than others, or that people from a particular place are better than others. The only difference is that the groups are divided differently.

I can go outside and yell something like "Asians rule, all you white people suck" And I'll be dead, literally, within 5 minutes. I can go outside and yell "Canadians are awesome, we're better than anyone else in the whole world" and that's not only socially acceptable, it's often even glorified!

Stereotyping nations is not a bit less ignorant than stereotyping races. Just about every friend I have thinks all Americans are power-hungry dogs that started the war of terror simply because they can. That's completely ignorant. The Americans view that all Middle Eastern countries and North Korea are evil and need to be destroyed/liberated, that's also completely ignorant. The terrorists' view on America, that the Americans are evil and try to police the world as much as possible, that's also completely ignorant. Many oriental people's view on North America, that we all have easy lives and are all rolling in money, and that we're all greedy bastards, that's also completely ignorant. However, all these things are happening, and are acceptable in every way - socially, morally, etc.

How can anyone justify stereotyping an entire race? In the same vein, how can anyone justify the stereotyping of an entire nation? It's one thing to be proud of one's nation, just like it's OK to be proud of one's race or skin colour. But to stereotype or judge another nation, that's not the tiniest bit better, or less ignorant than racism. So then, why is one idea so immoral and unacceptable, while the other is even glorified?

I think anyone who is 100% completely and blindly proud of their country (sees no flaws, and holds their country to the highest level of respect) is arrogant.

(Im using an american guy for my examples here)

IE:
American says "Psh. England is just fulla ppl who drink tea and eat crumpets."

Chances are, that American highly respects America and is therefore very ignorant about anyother place. People may have a right to say so, because America is a high power- but its still ignorance.

I think, by nature, people tend to classify stuff that they may know nothing about (or get their info from VERY bad sources). People fear what they dont know about- and so that they feel like they have SOME control or they do know- they try to classify stuff.

I dont classify hate into seriousness (nationalist, racist, sexist, etc). To me, they're all the same. People who call gay people 'fag' or black people 'niggers' or Americans as "fat yankees" or anything like that all fall under the same category, to me.

But then, an american, may instead, say:
"America is the best! *flag*"

However, i think when people say stuff like "(my country) rules and is the best!", they dont intend to put down all others and say that no other country compares. It just doesnt seem that way to me. If anything, it appears like they are indirectly putting down others on purpose- or just being extra prideful (which isnt necessarily bad).

So in conclusion:
Nationalism used to attack others is just as bad as racism, sexism, or any other hate that i know of. However, just showing pride (in an ignorant way) isnt considered so, the way i see it.

And anyway, a fact is that there is probably no country (or almost no country) that is where it is without the help of other countries.

Everyone I know is like that.
I remember in 3rd grade when a student asked my teacher:
"Do you think America is the best country?" And she replied:
"No, I think there are several more countries with better etc..."
I <3 that teacher...bestest teacha eva!!
Anyways, its really something we cannot control. No matter how ignorant it is. :rolleyes: :)

So in conclusion:
Nationalism used to attack others is just as bad as racism, sexism, or any other hate that i know of. However, just showing pride (in an ignorant way) isnt considered so, the way i see it.
Bravo! Hear hear! Can I be your friend because this response is perfect?

I believe that there's this really thin line between nationalism and racism.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country, as a matter of fact, I believe it's completely right.But being proud of your country for what it is itself, despite of what it is compared to another.

And racism, that's just an aberration. Nationalism can easily become racism, when as a Nation you believe you hold the truth and try to make a different culture think the same way you think (because supposedly, it is better). Then comes the wars. Then comes the terror (for both sides)

So then, why is one idea so immoral and unacceptable, while the other is even glorified?
It depends on who's judging that.

So in conclusion:
Nationalism used to attack others is just as bad as racism, sexism, or any other hate that i know of. However, just showing pride (in an ignorant way) isnt considered so, the way i see it.
That. I'd just add that I believe it's right being proud for what your country is for itself.

I think anyone who is 100% completely and blindly proud of their country (sees no flaws, and holds their country to the highest level of respect) is arrogant.

(Im using an american guy for my examples here)

IE:
American says "Psh. England is just fulla ppl who drink tea and eat crumpets."

Chances are, that American highly respects America and is therefore very ignorant about anyother place. People may have a right to say so, because America is a high power- but its still ignorance.

I think, by nature, people tend to classify stuff that they may know nothing about (or get their info from VERY bad sources). People fear what they dont know about- and so that they feel like they have SOME control or they do know- they try to classify stuff.

I dont classify hate into seriousness (nationalist, racist, sexist, etc). To me, they're all the same. People who call gay people 'fag' or black people 'niggers' or Americans as "fat yankees" or anything like that all fall under the same category, to me.

But then, an american, may instead, say:
"America is the best! *flag*"

However, i think when people say stuff like "(my country) rules and is the best!", they dont intend to put down all others and say that no other country compares. It just doesnt seem that way to me. If anything, it appears like they are indirectly putting down others on purpose- or just being extra prideful (which isnt necessarily bad).

So in conclusion:
Nationalism used to attack others is just as bad as racism, sexism, or any other hate that i know of. However, just showing pride (in an ignorant way) isnt considered so, the way i see it.

And anyway, a fact is that there is probably no country (or almost no country) that is where it is without the help of other countries.
I agree with Scott! That's a great response. I suppose there's nothing wrong with showing pride, even if it is ignorant. However, the great majority of people not only show pride, but also put down others. =o/

I mostly just got tired of everyone saying stuff like "Oh America's the bestest country in the world, and all Americans are patriots" Or "Oh fuck America, they're all arrogant dumbshits" (Which a LOT of people in Canada say) Even my history teacher, during our in class discussion, was stereotyping USA.


But still, socially and morally, nationalism is acceptable, and racism/sexism etc are not. Which really puzzles me, as they're the exact same thing, except that the groups of people involved are divided differently.

ps. Bleh. I was gonna rep you for that response, Nemo, but it said I needed to spread some reputation around. =o/

Due the reasoning given, moved as a DEBATE thread.

Nationalism may mean different things. But, clearly, stereotyping a country is just as dumb as stereotyping a race.

Nationalism may mean different things. But, clearly, stereotyping a country is just as dumb as stereotyping a race.
Society's attitude towards nationalism is still vastly different than its attitude towards racism, or sexism, etc.

There is nothing wrong with loving your country and being proud of your heritage. It is very important that you love your country and have a very strong sense of patriotism, otherwise what's the point?

There is nothing wrong with loving your country and being proud of your heritage. It is very important that you love your country and have a very strong sense of patriotism, otherwise what's the point?

I agree.

However, you have to agree that sometimes nationalism can get out of hand. If you're boisterous about it and flaunt it in front of people that are not of your nationality, then of course, it's every bit as bad.

As long as you're a reasonable person though, nationalism is not so bad. It can actually be a positive thing.

Being proud of your nation is one thing. Allowing that pride to grow to a level where you actually think it's OK to disregard the opinions/values/needs/culture etc of other nations is quite another.

I'm Scottish... I love my country. For a wee place whose population has never been more than 7 million, we've consistently produced World Class people - artists, poets, engineers, doctors, politicians... you name it. We boast some of the most beautiful landscape in the world and let's not forget that Whisky was our idea ;)

If, however, I was to suggest that the USA was second rate because it wasn't Scotland, that would be terribly wrong. Where nationalism becomes unnacceptable is when you see your own country as superior to others. That's just wrong, and I shouldn't have to explain why.

And also, let's not forget that nationalism is almost always 'standing on the shoulders of giants'. Sure, you might have been lucky enough (as I was ;) )to have been born in a place that has great wealth, appreciates personal freedoms and plays a major role on the World Stage... but who the fuck exactly are YOU? YOU were not responsible in ANY WAY for the things you're getting so fired up about. In all likelihood, the people who made your nation great wouldn't even cross the street to piss down your throat if your guts were on fire... so I say this.

Be proud of your country's achievements, by all means... but as soon as you start believing that you have a right to claim credit for those things, you've crossed the line. Alexander Fleming, a Scots doctor, discovered penicillin... I can be proud that Scotland gave such a gift to the world, but it wasn't my idea. I am associated to this event through nothing more than an accident of birth.

Looking down on an another nation because of qualities you have awarded yourself on the back of something someone ELSE did is despicable and stupid. And that's the basis of Nationalism. In that regard, it's the same as racism... an unfounded lack of respect for another country's people.

Thank you Head for explaining that 100X more eloquently than I could.

Head, i would rep you, but i think i repped you too recently... Thats what it says, anyway.

=) Good points.

The Americans view that all Middle Eastern countries and North Korea are evil and need to be destroyed/liberated, that's also completely ignorant.
Yes, stereotyping is a big problem.

:)

There is nothing wrong with loving your country and being proud of your heritage. It is very important that you love your country and have a very strong sense of patriotism, otherwise what's the point?

You can tell that because you share borders with Canada and Mexico only and feel strongly American over all, even you are white, black, yellow or red. Come to Europe and will notice Catalonian or Basques vs. Spaniards, Bretons vs. Frenchies, Sudtirolers vs. Italians, Latvians vs. Russians, etc. etc. etc., different languages, different cultures sharing the same territory. That's still Europe.

More Yugoslavias? Never again, I hope. It was the most recent and worse example of nationalism-fascism. :(

As per, Head has got a good point. ;)

Australian, born and bred. I have the ill nosed conception that my country is better then any other, I don't deny it. I love the place, most of the people are ok and the living is fairly decent. I love this country because it's my home, and in respect of nationalism, you've got every right to think the same thing. Each country has it's own stages of development, some are advanced and others aren't, neither makes a difference. If in some way it poses a threat, it doesn't mean your country is better then theirs.

We are over here, you are over there. Good luck to ya.:p

{edit} and the link in my sig is my nationalism...

Yes, stereotyping is a big problem.

:)
Pfft, I wasn't personally trying to stereotype Americans, but the examples I said are what many people believe.

And thanks Head, awesome response. :)

I think racism comes into play when one believes that their nation specifically 'belongs to' a certain group of people.

But I don't know if I would necessarily compare nationalism with sexism, racism. While all three are forms of discrimination and division, nationalism doesn't necessarily disenfranchise or oppress or dehumanize. Am I making any sense?

I think racism comes into play when one believes that their nation specifically 'belongs to' a certain group of people.

But I don't know if I would necessarily compare nationalism with sexism, racism. While all three are forms of discrimination and division, nationalism doesn't necessarily disenfranchise or oppress or dehumanize. Am I making any sense?
Nazism was based on nationalism. So was Fascism. And even if nothing as dramatic as slavery has been caused by nationalism, it doesn't make the concept of it any better than racism.

BTW, what Head wrote was great. There are differences between races, sexes, and nationalities, and it's perfectly OK to be proud of your particular race, etc. What's not OK is when you feel your group is superior to another, and stereotype other groups.