Suggestions? No Child Left Behind? Government Vouchers? Homeschool? Anyone?

Parents who give a crap and hold their own children responsible. Too many "soccer moms" expect Johnny to get an "A" even if he doesn't deserve one. And another thing: quit watering down advanced courses with students who can't (or won't) handle the course load to simply please a parent who wants everyone at the country club to think that their child is smart. With a class of those eventually the courses have to be watered down due to pressures for those "God-given rights"... an "A" without working.
Then you have the other extreme; families where education is of little value and that sense of low value is passed on to the child.
And finally, toss out the notion of an elected board ruling a district. Can you imagine an elected board, with little knowledge of computers, telling IBM's leaders how to run their business? Of course not. Besides, elected officials are more concerned with staying elected.

First of all, this is an international board right? You might want to specify that you're talking about the education system in the United States. Are you open to international opinion? That's another thing. I really don't know what should be done about education. I'm currently starting to read a book for my Elements of Learning class called: "The Unschooled Mind: How Children think and how schools should teach." By Howard Gardener. I think he's going to address radical change in this book. Something to look at if you're interested.

i think that the educational system is completely whacked up, and i have a theory about a whole new system, which incorporates all the subjects in one long, big discussion. its a really long explaination and my fingers will fall off if i try to type it all

Ok, here's what I know about the US education system (and others) that bothers me:

Numbers are continually falsified.

For example: In an un-named HS in NJ, A group of lower-level students were intentionally held back in 9th grade and upon completing a 2nd term of 9th grade + mandatory summer school, they jumped to 11th grade. Know what that acheives?

They don't have to take the HSPT and weigh it down with poor scores in their district.

Kids who are home schooled do not have to take standardized tests. One female student at the same school as before was the valedictorian of her HS in 2001, on a completely home-schooled regimen via the district. Perfect grades. She received early admittance to Princeton and a scholarship. Then she took the SATs. Bad Choice... She scored under a 600. It later came to surface her grades were being assigned w/o work due, and a school system is forced to accept home-tutors grades without question. This policy is currently being ratified.

Kids today are assigned "learning disabilities" for everything. If a kid doesn't want to pay attention, he gets an IEP (Individualized Education Plan) that treats his needs. Laziness is now a "learning disability" for kids who don't want to do work - but they just throw it under an umbrella of a medical term...

Now the "No Child Left Behind" garbage...

You know why they're going that? Why they're pushing kids through the system, pass or fail?

Because kids who fail tests usually fail them more than once! By reducing repeat failures, you greatly increase the "view" of the overall level of education - while actually teaching the children less.

And why is that an issue? Because other countries who've been lauding better education standards than the US for decades have been doing that themselves. The US always held itself to higher standards - and paid for it because of that. But recently, the issue of education has gotten so hot - especially how we seem to "lack" compared to the rest of the world - that this is a quick fix that'll put the US Mid-Level (HS) education back into the world's top-5 in a year or two. Watch as this spring rolls around and the new HS testing occurs... I think right now the US ranks something like 17th overall in Mid-Level (HS) Education. By the time re-election comes around we'll be in the top-10 again.

Know how to make the educational system better? PAY YOUR TEACHERS MORE!!! Why are most teachers brainless idiots? Because the SMART people who graduate from college usually go find a job that pays MORE than $30,000 a year. And this is coming from someone who is an elementary education major.

When I started college, I took three semesters of computer engineering before switching majors. Not because I couldn't hack it, but because teaching was what I WANTED to do, even though EVERYONE told me not to do it. Why? Because I was "too smart" to be a teacher. I heard that so many times. Why waste my potential, etc. How fucked up is that? So only morons are supposed to be teachers? Only people who can't cut it in a "real" major should be teaching our children? Unfortunately, many people don't see teaching as a prestigious career, so teachers are looked down upon. Parents want their kids to have great teachers, great schools, but they aren't willing to pay an extra .05% in taxes to pay those teachers a little more.

People also look too much at test scores. Those tests that every kid takes in certain grades? Those are norm-referenced tests. That means the kids are being scored compared to other kids, not as a percentage of how many questions they got right. The results are meant to make a fairly even bell curve. If it's a GOOD test, you're SUPPOSED to have just as many kids do horribly as do really really well, with the majority of kids making an average score. It's very wrong when a school's funding or a teacher's pay is determined by those scores. Sure, if ALL your kids are scoring really low on such tests, something is wrong, but if the test is doing what it should, at least SOME kids will get those low scores.

If you want to improve the quality of people's education then you have to ditch the idea that no child will be left behind. Period. Not everyone is capable of doing high school algebra, and so if you run with both of these ideas you are going to see one of two situations.

0) Cheapen the degree so that it is worthless. grade inflation rules the day and a high school degree (and then a college degree) becomes worth less and less. The quality of the education will be very low--these things will work themselves to the lowest common denominator.

1) Realize that not everyone is going to pass high school and make a high school diploma actually mean something, but cull people out early. Children will be left behind.

A good alternative to completely dropping people are Vocational/Trade schools where the person covers some basics that you would see in High School, but the focus is in preparing them for a career--complete with internships and/or apprenticeships. Electricians, plumbers, locksmiths, etc. Even then, though, some people are just not going to be able to hack it.

If you want to improve the quality of people's education then you have to ditch the idea that no child will be left behind. Period. Not everyone is capable of doing high school algebra, and so if you run with both of these ideas you are going to see one of two situations.

0) Cheapen the degree so that it is worthless. grade inflation rules the day and a high school degree (and then a college degree) becomes worth less and less. The quality of the education will be very low--these things will work themselves to the lowest common denominator.

1) Realize that not everyone is going to pass high school and make a high school diploma actually mean something, but cull people out early. Children will be left behind.

A good alternative to completely dropping people are Vocational/Trade schools where the person covers some basics that you would see in High School, but the focus is in preparing them for a career--complete with internships and/or apprenticeships. Electricians, plumbers, locksmiths, etc. Even then, though, some people are just not going to be able to hack it.

Bravo...

Agreed 100%

I heard that in Japan every student takes a standardized test in the 8th grade... above a certain score, you go to an academic high school; below that score and it is off to a vocational high school. No if, ands or buts and no special treatment just because of who your parents are.

An easy way to improve the school system would be to make it national and not have so many variations between states and even counties.

If you want to improve the quality of people's education then you have to ditch the idea that no child will be left behind. Period. Not everyone is capable of doing high school algebra

Agreed. The no child left behind is a nice idea, but it's not fair for the smarter children to have to sit back and wait for the slower children to try to catch up (they did this in EVERY one of my high school classes, it was horrible). I don't mean it to be discriminatory, but I think they need to seperate the children--to a certain degree--by intelligence level. That way the slower kids can get the help they need, and the smarter kids aren't held back while the teacher is trying to help the slower kids.

An easy way to improve the school system would be to make it national and not have so many variations between states and even counties.
Why would that help? Variations allow states and counties to experiment in different directions. If County A uses a different educational model than County B, it's easier to compare the two different models, and see which is better and why.

I'd go further and support some sort of voucher program, something that would lead eventually to privatization. That would increase the kind of competition I just mentioned.

Currently in the UK, there's a system of Exams... GCSEs and A levels (in England and Wales) and 'O' Levels and 'H' Levels in more civilised parts of the country ;).

There's a debate in Parliament right now as to whether or not we should replace these with a High School Diploma, much like you Yanks have. This would allow people to achieve the same merit from their time at high school whether they go for a 'Vocational' or 'Academic' path.

I can't help but think this is a Good Thing™ .

Too much emphasis is put on Book Laarnin'... By that I mean that it's fine to hope for our children to have a firm grasp of sciences and arts and whatnot... but we should also appreciate that we need Joiners, Sparks, Brickies, Scaffolders, Glaziers, Plumbers, Shopkeepers, Butchers, Refuse workers, Mechanics, Hospital Orderlies, Caterers, Plasterers, Decorators, Machinists, Fitters, Managers, Clerks, Farmers, Hell... you name it. (I don't mean to imply that any of the vocations I list above require any more or any less knowledge or skill that any of the others... I just mean... Oh, Fuck you and your PC disclaimers. You know damn fine what I mean. Live with it.)
The point I'm making is that you don't necessarily have to be "Clever On Paper" to be a success.

So, you failed Biology but you did really well in Pottery. Whoosh. :rolleyes: Nobody really cares about another species of frog... but people will always need plates.

Be happy. ;)

The point I'm making is that you don't necessarily have to be "Clever On Paper" to be a success.

That is probably one of the best statements I have heard in a long time. Thanks Head. :)

Well... here in Canada we do seperate the vocational from the academic, in some respect. We have technical schools which are a mix between getting your high school certificate, as well as your bachelor's in computer sciences or mechanics, as well as some art programs. You need to apply before you enter high school in most cases, and it is not guaranteed you will be accepted.

Most of the schools here in BC have a remedial version of whatever class you might be having a hard time in. basically it will have about 10-15 students and a teacher who will hold your hand and do half of your work for you, which is already half as hard. it's great for people who would have otherwise dropped out, but their education probably ultimately suffers - especially since once they begin this type of learning, they quickly fall behind and have little hope of returning to a regular class ever.

In other cases, a student can opt to take classes one at a time (full days of a single subject for like two months) rather than five or more subjects simultainiously. some people just can't multitask well enough to handle it all at once so this works well.

This isn't the case for all schools, but most of the schools here realize that there are some serious flaws in the system and that everyone learns differently.

Parents who give a crap and hold their own children responsible. Too many "soccer moms" expect Johnny to get an "A" even if he doesn't deserve one. And another thing: quit watering down advanced courses with students who can't (or won't) handle the course load to simply please a parent who wants everyone at the country club to think that their child is smart. With a class of those eventually the courses have to be watered down due to pressures for those "God-given rights"... an "A" without working.


Damn bloody straight. And what Head said, too. In PA, most high schools have an associated "Vo Tech" (Vocational Technologies) school, so half of the day is spent learned basic math and english, and the other half is doing more practical things.

School districts have to learn how to spend their money where it matters. My school has placed a levy for the next election. What's being threatened? Advanced Placement classes much as AP Biology and AP Calculus, Classes sizes will increase to average 32-37 students, huge cuts will be made to the band program, Gifted Education and Special Ed. What's not being cut? Sports. With the money from the last levy, we had a new football built for the team who's last season was 0-10. The Varsity Basketball coach gets paid nearly $7,000 for one season. The people who miss out are those who work hard, and get the good grades. School is about education, and helping the students amount to all they can, not sports and not over paying a superintendant who sits in his office writing letter to our parents about all the fucked up events that happened recently. Someone has to go smack around the people in charge so they can finally realize that more money should go to creating a safer, encouraging, and challenging enviroment for the students, especially those who aren't getting anything out of regular classes. The downfall of the schools in America is they need to get their priorities straight and spend the money accordingly.

Why would that help? Variations allow states and counties to experiment in different directions. If County A uses a different educational model than County B, it's easier to compare the two different models, and see which is better and why.

Yes, variation is good. However, there need to be more general rules that each school needs to follow.

For example, grades: There are usually 3 scales followed, the regular 0-100 scale (90-100 A, 80-89 B, etc), the college scale (92-100 A, 85-91 B, etc), and the 0-4 scale (3.5-4 A, 2.5-3.49 B, etc). Each school decided which scale to use.

Some schools as low as elementary school use the college scale (I had this scale for a few years myself, right around 5th grade). Is it right for an elementary student, a kid, to be graded by a college scale?

Along the same lines, the school right down the street can grade on the regular scale. Two students on the same level, one from each school, could get a 90 on the same paper. One would get an A, one wouldn't. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Teachers have trouble with grading on the regular scale. My old highschool is trying to switch from the 0-4 scale to the regular scale, and now teachers have to grade freshman on a regular scale and everyone other grade on a 0-4 scale. Their main problem with the 0-4 scale is how to grade student's work. What's the difference between an 85 and an 86? How much is one point really worth?

Colleges have got to have trouble with GPA and admissions. If a certain college uses the 0-100 scale, they're going to have trouble accurately calculating a student with a GPA on the 0-4 scale, and vice versa.

Kids who are home schooled do not have to take standardized tests. One female student at the same school as before was the valedictorian of her HS in 2001, on a completely home-schooled regimen via the district. Perfect grades. She received early admittance to Princeton and a scholarship. Then she took the SATs. Bad Choice... She scored under a 600. It later came to surface her grades were being assigned w/o work due, and a school system is forced to accept home-tutors grades without question. This policy is currently being ratified.

Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea.

That kind of tracking and monitoring is the reason most parents homeschool.
It's not that we cheat, or that the kids can't do well on the standarized tests they force at us... it's that we just don't want to take them, and we shouldn't have to.

The state should not be a failsafe for parents who are not doing their job. Yes, that includes kids who are failing public school... that's just as much the parent's job there.

On average, homeschoolers score 100 points higher on the SAT than their public school counterparts. That's primarily because MOST parents homeschool their kids for the purpose of educating them.

My older sister failed Algebra. She took it three times in high school, and then again in college. (She dropped the class after the second test) She just didn't get it. She's now at a theatre school in England. 1200 audition for that school each year, 30 make it.
Like Head said... there are other things you can do, and you don't need Biology or Chemistry to do them all.

The major reasons why our educational system is so terrible.

Capitalistic Society: For example, Germany doesn't pay its teachers any more than the U.S. (probably less), however teaching is considered a very respectable profession. In the U.S. too much of your social status is based on how much money you make, therefore teaching isn't considered a very respectable profession. Also, students have to want to learn to have any chance at doing well. For example, in D.C. $13,000 is spent per student on education, yet their students test very low, there is alot of violence, and the schools end up looking like shit. Why is that? because the kids don't care about learning and vandalize the school.

-Vocational schools: (I've been for what Llywelyn suggested for years.)vocational schools would divide the students into the groups who want to learn high level topics and go to college and the groups who either don't want to or can't. As it is, students who don't go to college are screwed over. A highschool diploma means nothing, vocational schools would at least teach them skills that would allow them to make a living.

-Apathy. The standard of living in the U.S. is high enough that you can pretty much do nothing and survive relatively comfortably. Why do anything?As far as I can tell the two major factors contributing towards apathy are; 1) the Welfare system 2) lower class society

-Welfare system: If you don't work you will be taken care of. Socialism is one step away from Communism. Communism does away with incentives and encourages sloth.

-Lower Class society: Lower class society creates an atmosphere where it's "uncool" to be smart and use big words. It's much cooler to be a "gangsta" and shoot people. (which also has alot to do with the unporportional levels of violence in the U.S. compared to other countries)

-Standardized Testing: Bureaucrats have come up with the idea of creating more and more tests to administer to students. The extreme amount of testing wastes time that could be spent in the classroom learning.

-Sports: The only good thing about highschool sports is it encourages the lower echelons to at least keep D's in classes so they can be eligible to play. However, the costs of the sports programs far outweigh the benefits. Why not take sports out of the schools? or have them funded by private companies? Or at the very least change it so you have to keep a 2.0 average with no D's to be eligible?

-Grading: Grading differs greatly between teachers. Some teachers teach honors classes like AP, other teachers teach AP classes like honors. Some teachers have favorites who can do nothing and receive an A for the year. The one thing I have found that is consistant is that homework is worth entirely too much of your final grade. Homework should be entirely optional. It shouldn't be graded. Tests, Essays, speeches, debates. Those are the things you should be graded on, they determine your knowledge of a topic, not homework which you could have done incorrectly and still gotten points for, as long as you gave it a shot. GPA means next to nothing.

-Entirely too many colleges: It used to be difficult to get into colleges. Now some insane % of highschool graduates continue to "higher education". Why work? This is another factor that contributes to apathy, though not as much as the two previously mentioned.

-Attention: Teachers generally pay much more attention to those who goof off because they need help than to those who are intelligent and are bored.

-Affirmative Action and Minority Scholarships: These allow minorities to under-achieve and get the same results as a white kid who works hard. Affirmative Action should be based on Socio-economic status, not race. There are plenty of poor white kids who are disadvantaged and plenty of well to do black kids who have no disadvantage. Scholarships should be merit based. I am a senior in highschool and every time I go into the guidance office to see what scholarships there are available I walk out very angry. I meet the merit requirements for almost all of them, however, I am discriminated against because I am a white male.

Thank you for reading my rant of the failures of the educational system.

P.S. women are the majority. A significantly larger percent of women continue on to higher learning after highschool. Why are women considered a minority when determining financial aid? (answer: because of those bitchy feminazis)

I think that school fees are too high. If you live in Scotland and go to a Scottish Uni, then the fees are just £1,000 a year. Were as over here, I dont know the fees exactly but I know they are much greater than that.

Well, i'm going to wirte about the Spanish situation.
Nowadays we have a educational system with compulsory schooling until sixteen years.
It's divided in 3 years of pre-school (kindergarten), 6 years of primary school, 4 of secondary compulsory schooling (E.S.O. in spanish) and two optional years of "bachillerato".
When you finish E.S.O you can go to a "módulo de grado medio", this means an intensive course of some years focused on getting a job (hair dresser, plumber, cook...)
When you finish "bachillerato" you have three options: move your ass and get a job, study for the "selectividad exam" or go to a "módulo de grado superior" that is like the grado medio one but it's more valued.
"Selectividad" is an exam that allows you to go to university if you get the marks that the university wants. In my city you need an 8 to enter in Medicine. During bachillerato you choose different subjects that you'll need in the career you wish to do and those are the ones who will appear in the selectividad exams. There are also common subjects for both science and arts students such as History, Language and Second Language (English or French most commonly).
This is going to change.
I accept that we are reaching levels of absolute stupidity and illiteracy compared to our parents, grandpas... they had another system with constant exams as Selectividad and they had to study more.But i cannot stand what our President and one of his Ministers have done. They have passed a new law for Education thanks to their absolute majority.
This new law includes some changes:
- They'll give aids to the private school to guarantee free private school for kindergarten kids.
- They'll introduce a new exam: the Revalida, instead of Selectividad.
- They'll change University study plans and subjects, dividing it in more terms and changing the number of years of every single career.
- They'll make itineraries inside the E.S.O. that will be similar to módulos.
- Religion will be a subject that will play a decisive role in the final marks.

okay, now it's the turn for complaints:
- They should finance public school instead of giving more money to the private school. I'm in the public school, and last year the government aids were invested on a lift and a ramp for future students with disabilities. We couldn't fix our gym, that is so small that when you run you feel like spinning around yourself, while the government was giving financial aid to the private school. They'll change school into a private firm if this continues like this.
- Selectividad was an exam to go to University. Now with the Revalida if you've got A in all your bachillerato subjects and you fail this exam, you won't pass Bachillerato. You've got four oportunities to pass. And then you must do an exam to enter in your University. I really don't mind about this point, i've got to do an exam to enter my Uni anyways, but it's unfair for the rest. I'm one of the students of Selectividad's last year.
- We don't know exactly what will they do inside the University, so for the moment i cannot complain about this.
- Well, this is a good idea, when kids are twelve they'll divide them, one will continue studying and the other ones will study to get a job. This is a good idea, but maybe they government will be the one who will choose the way of the students according to their marks instead of asking the students theirselves.
- NO WAY. Spain is a secular country and government is separated from Church. Religion MUSTN'T count as History or Language. It's the weirdest thing I've ever heard. It gets me riled.

And this is all about education in my country.

Oh man, I live in Kentucky! One of the worst places to go to school at >.<. We can't go on ANY field trips except if it pertains to what we are learning, and on top of that, each subject only gets 2 field trips a year (social studies, english etc.) so when a good field trip comes up, we can't freaking GO. Yeah like when OUR lil chorus got invited to go to NEW YORK to sing at CARNIGE HALL, a LIFE CHANGING EXPERIANCE Monte said "no". Who cares about KERA testing or whatever, if there is a chance to experiance something you could never experiance again we should take it!!

Oh heres another thing. Our teachers get so busy with their stupid folders they have to do they can't make our lessons interesting and fun. They sit there for atleast 5 minutes making sure they have their lesson plans for the week done, and whatever else they have to have for the folder. First Year teachers have something called "K-Tip" they have to do, and get stressed out cause they have to get that done as well as learn how to be a good teacher.

I wanna be a teacher, but I vow NEVER EVER to teach in Kentucky..ever.

With my district basically in financial crisis, I now see school fees are pretty necissary. Since schools earn the majority of their money from the government, taxes, many need as much as they can get. It's how they spend (or you could say WASTE) that money that diserves to be bitched about.

With my district basically in financial crisis, I now see school fees are pretty necissary. Since schools earn the majority of their money from the government, taxes, many need as much as they can get. It's how they spend (or you could say WASTE) that money that diserves to be bitched about.

School fees can get pretty ridiculous. The year I moved from NC to MD, my brand spanking new high school in NC wanted, in school/class fees, for me to pay over $100. Yes, over $100 to go to public school.

A person shouldn't have to pay for public school. Isn't that the whole point of a public school-for children to be educated and not have to pay for it?

School fees can get pretty ridiculous. The year I moved from NC to MD, my brand spanking new high school in NC wanted, in school/class fees, for me to pay over $100. Yes, over $100 to go to public school.

A person shouldn't have to pay for public school. Isn't that the whole point of a public school-for children to be educated and not have to pay for it?
From what I have seen, however, the more one has to pay for any type of schooling the harder they tend to work. They've invested something. In fact - I would toss out "free" education entirely for some type of payment, even a token amount.

pale_is_beautiful, you live in Maryland now? I live in Howard County. :)

Anyway, I believe that public education should be largely done away with. If you look at the tremendous amount of money the Government puts into the school system, and then look at the test scores, you will see that there is no point in teaching those who don't care. Like I said in a previous post, instead of mandating that everyone has to go to a highschool up until 16 (when they can drop out) it would be better to create vocational schools that kids that don't plan on continuing to college can attend.

School fees can get pretty ridiculous. The year I moved from NC to MD, my brand spanking new high school in NC wanted, in school/class fees, for me to pay over $100. Yes, over $100 to go to public school.

A person shouldn't have to pay for public school. Isn't that the whole point of a public school-for children to be educated and not have to pay for it?

I see where you are coming from with public school should be free, but I don't see that as a reality. The whole point of public education is to offer education that is affordable to everyone, I believe. A measly 100 bucks doesn't compare to that millions that the government pays for. My fees are nearly 100, since there are small fees for my honors classes. Look at it this way: compare a little over 100 dollars to the amount your parents would be dishing out if you went to a private school. My school levy just failed yesterday (by only 2%, 300 votes! GAR!) and now for sports and other activites, everyone has to pay 50-75 dollars just to participate. My thoughts are the districts and the government spends so much to bring education to everyone affordably, we should be grateful they do at least that much. As for the costs to apply to colleges and take AP tests, that's another story.

pale_is_beautiful, you live in Maryland now? I live in Howard County. :)

:) I'm in Cecil County, loving referred to by some as Ceciltucky


Anyway, I believe that public education should be largely done away with. If you look at the tremendous amount of money the Government puts into the school system, and then look at the test scores, you will see that there is no point in teaching those who don't care. Like I said in a previous post, instead of mandating that everyone has to go to a highschool up until 16 (when they can drop out) it would be better to create vocational schools that kids that don't plan on continuing to college can attend.

What age do you think that kids should be put in vocational schools? Age-wise, it's not until around 16 that kids finally try to figure out what they want to do in life. There are people in their 30s who still don't know. If our system was like how you suggested, my only worries would be:

--age: (depending on the age that we send them to vocational schools) kids who are just getting tired of playing with dolls being forced to choose what they want to do years before they ever do it; I guess what bothers me the most is pushing our children to grow up even quicker than they already are

--being able to switch: college students, for example, rarely if ever keep their 1st major; they switch countless times. If a student is in one vocational school and decides that this isn't what they want to do for the rest of their lives, how hard is it going to be for them to switch schools? Will they even be able to switch? And what if it's one of their last years? What would they do with someone with 2 years of school left going to a school where he has to start with the basics? Do they keep him for even longer?

I see where you are coming from with public school should be free, but I don't see that as a reality. The whole point of public education is to offer education that is affordable to everyone, I believe. A measly 100 bucks doesn't compare to that millions that the government pays for. My fees are nearly 100, since there are small fees for my honors classes. Look at it this way: compare a little over 100 dollars to the amount your parents would be dishing out if you went to a private school. My school levy just failed yesterday (by only 2%, 300 votes! GAR!) and now for sports and other activites, everyone has to pay 50-75 dollars just to participate. My thoughts are the districts and the government spends so much to bring education to everyone affordably, we should be grateful they do at least that much. As for the costs to apply to colleges and take AP tests, that's another story.
Thanks for your input. I hadn't thought of it from that point of view before. I do think, however, that for class fees and everything else that $100 total is a tad excessive. I might agree with fees for classes that aren't necessarily needed but useful nonetheless--like honors, or AP classes (in my school, AP classes were college courses taken at school; you did a buttload of work and took the test at the end of the semester and it counted as a college credit; I almost took a few of these but the idea that I had to pay $75 to take a class at school pissed me off so I decided not to). And the fees to apply for a college I don't like; it's just yet another way to scam someone out of their money.

--age: (depending on the age that we send them to vocational schools) kids who are just getting tired of playing with dolls being forced to choose what they want to do years before they ever do it; I guess what bothers me the most is pushing our children to grow up even quicker than they already are
I know plenty of people who knew what they wanted to do very early on. However, I see your point. The solution to the problem would be to create more general programs, however, no where near as general as highschool. For example, Joe is bad at Foreign language and English, however, he's very good at math and science. In my system Joe would be able to go to a Science/Math school to develop his abilities and eventually specialize in a specific job.


--being able to switch: college students, for example, rarely if ever keep their 1st major; they switch countless times. If a student is in one vocational school and decides that this isn't what they want to do for the rest of their lives, how hard is it going to be for them to switch schools? Will they even be able to switch? And what if it's one of their last years? What would they do with someone with 2 years of school left going to a school where he has to start with the basics? Do they keep him for even longer?

It would be difficult to switch...however, switching vocational schools will be uncommon because the students would all go to schools that specialize in what they are good at/like to do. Yes, when someone switches there is a chance that they may have wasted much of their time, however, if they switch to a related field of study, then they wouldn't lose too much.

i know i know how about we ger rid of school forever! yay whos with me!?!?! ok no. anyways i may be wrong and way off topic but maybe we just need a new government la la la i never said that :eek:

i know i know how about we ger rid of school forever! yay whos with me!?!?! ok no. anyways i may be wrong and way off topic but maybe we just need a new government la la la i never said that :eek:
Huh, after looking at the errors in those two sentences maybe that isn't such a good idea. :D

yes...our education system is sad as hell.

my state is (well, WAS ranked 46th or 48th in the nation (in i think it was 98?) out of the best educational systems - basically almost the worst by 2 - 4 spots)...yeah. crap. then again when i think of some schools in brooklyn - i'm glad i live where i do now and went to the high school i went to.

my college was pure garbage. i swear, it's one of the WORST HBCU's in the nation. aside from the crime on campus, the teachers couldn't teach worth SHIT. WE had to teach the teacher (math)..had to correct him on HIGH SCHOOL GEOMETRY. then, befo the class is even halfway through, the entire left side of the class leaves (which is about 25 or so out of 40 some students)..tell me that ain't gangsta :rolleyes: i told some people about this and they thought i was making this up. it's true, and it's the sad truth. that isn't even the worst thing i've witnessed/experienced at that college..

YES, pay the teachers more. they need a better salary, damn it. we're losing more and more teachers as time progresses. we need more educated teachers :rolleyes: not some lazy, slack off teachers (at least in my area - they might know some of the material, but they go offtopic and start talking about stories that happened to them - "you ever been to chicago? southside? ohh when i went there, someone was bangin on my car window tellin me to get out. you know what i was thinkin? "DAMN! I wish i had brought my handgun." that's english class for you. ENGLISH.

crappy teaching is FRUSTRATING. and no wonder i quit that college to take a half year off...just a break. i wouldn't go back to that college even if they PAID for my tuition 100%.

also, the schools need more funding for text books and such. and the school building as well, if possible :rolleyes: the college i went to had moss growing in the library and dorms, and students had to live in other dorms and off-campus due to that problem.

What college is that? lol. Sounds bad! Why don't you transfer to a different college? maybe out of state? :)

What not to do: cut funding for all high school athletics, libraries, and counseling. AHEM.

What not to do: cut funding for all high school athletics, libraries, and counseling. AHEM.

School art programs included

I looked through the whole thread today, and I must ask what is "No Child Left Behind" program? From what I see on this thread it's bad thing, and everyone has good reasons, but what is it?

What not to do: cut funding for all high school athletics, libraries, and counseling. AHEM.

Those programs are beneficial to some people, but the great amount of monet spent on it could go to better causes. Athletics, for one, I think the teams should be in charge of rasing some of the money they want to spend theirselves. My school spends so much money on a 0-win team that could be going to replace the tattered books for Honors English. Sports are great, I participate in two, but when the only thing that isn't getting major cuts at my school is sports while a lot of teachers are losing their jobs, it makes me wonder how highly should sports be valued to spend that money on, while the honors classes I hoped to take are being cut.

Those programs are beneficial to some people, but the great amount of monet spent on it could go to better causes. Athletics, for one, I think the teams should be in charge of rasing some of the money they want to spend theirselves.

At my school not a dime of educational money goes to athletics, aside for salaries; in fact football basically funds itself and all of the other sports and has even paid for upgrades to the school itself.

High school sports isn't about winning or losing. It's about the side benefits. In a high-crime, low-income city like Richmond, for example, where they went ahead and cut all the sports programs for the district, it keeps kids "off the streets"... tired cliche, but it was true. It provides an incentive to study and keep their grades up. And some, not most, but a pretty good number of the kids in those programs use their sports to obtain college scholarships they would never have gotten otherwise. It teaches physical fitness and, ideally at least, the value of healthy competition. It provides something for the school to get behind. It gives cheerleaders something to do.

Stuff like that.

I looked through the whole thread today, and I must ask what is "No Child Left Behind" program? From what I see on this thread it's bad thing, and everyone has good reasons, but what is it?

I'm not really read about about "No Child Left Behind", but what I understand from a conversation I had with my favorite sub., it basically means that all students must be given equal oppertunity(sp? geez, I can't spell today) to get an education. He doesn't believe in that rule and he had a good point: the people who are given that garenteed education but really don't care, nor put in any effort to take advantage of the plan, is just wasting valuable dollars the school could be using more efficently, and it's holding back all the students who do care, and will work to achieve what they can. For instance, if there's a handful of people in your class who don't pay attention, don't do their work, etc., the god students time is wasted as the teacher tries to discipline and teach those who don't give a crap. Anyways, I'm pretty sure that's it, but if im wrong, don't shoot me.

At my school not a dime of educational money goes to athletics, aside for salaries; in fact football basically funds itself and all of the other sports and has even paid for upgrades to the school itself.

It would be so much better if my school was that smart, but I guess they value sports above the whole point of school...EDUCATION. My school will be implementing Pay-To-Participate if the levy fails again in August, but that it's much. To participate in Marching Band (which draws in a bigger crowd than the football, might I add), I already pay a crapload and do fund raising, and they expect us to pay even more for bussing us and crap. A measely 50-75 bucks the athletes will have to pay isn't much compared to the near 200 or me and the 190 other band member will be faced with. But I can rant about this for ages, so I'll shut up now. :-X

High school sports isn't about winning or losing. It's about the side benefits. In a high-crime, low-income city like Richmond, for example, where they went ahead and cut all the sports programs for the district, it keeps kids "off the streets"... tired cliche, but it was true. It provides an incentive to study and keep their grades up. And some, not most, but a pretty good number of the kids in those programs use their sports to obtain college scholarships they would never have gotten otherwise. It teaches physical fitness and, ideally at least, the value of healthy competition. It provides something for the school to get behind. It gives cheerleaders something to do.

Stuff like that.

Yes, I acknowledge sports have their benefits for many people, but an insane amount of money is spent on those programs in some districts, such as mine. It would be great if the teams could raise most of the money themselves, as lowercountry's school does, but when a school if largely in debt and pays for the sports, cuts should be made, which in turn could lead to the teams raising money for themselves. One kid I know has signed to play football for The University of Toledo, which shows how sports can be beneficial, but spending could be cut down. I'm no cheerleader, but I don't see why it's necissary for the school to pay to send them to camp. I've heard from a reliable source that the sports director gets paid a rate of 14 dollars an hour just for showing up to a sporting event. The Varsity Basketball couch gets paid upwards of 6,000 bucks a season. (tennis couchs only around 2,500, something to compare to) I don't know about you, but I find some of this spending a bit excessive.

I am writing an essay and this thread has helped me out much. Is it okay if I put points in my essay that you guys (Sheep, Head, IS, and Dreams) have made?

I am writing an essay and this thread has helped me out much. Is it okay if I put points in my essay that you guys (Sheep, Head, IS, and Dreams) have made?


Sure! :D I love being heard! (or at least thinking I am) I'm glad I can be an assistance. Drop me a P.M. if you ever want my insight on anything!

I am writing an essay and this thread has helped me out much. Is it okay if I put points in my essay that you guys (Sheep, Head, IS, and Dreams) have made?

I think if anyone didn't want their opinions heard then they wouldn't have written them, so go ahead. If someone doesn't want to be quoted, they'll let you know.

I really didn't want to raise an old thread or to double post, but I think what is happening in the Baltimore area in Maryland right now deserves to be looked at.

I delted certain parts, mostly about politics that have little to do with the article itself.
Nearly a third of the seniors who received a diploma last month from Walbrook High Uniform Services Academy might not have met graduation requirements, and hundreds of other students might have been wrongly promoted to the next grade, city school officials said yesterday.

Graduates whose diplomas might be invalid will begin to be notified today by school officials. Walbrook is scheduled to open its doors at 1 p.m. for students to discuss their transcripts with counselors and figure out how to make up classes.

Officials spent last night contacting graduates whose diplomas are not in question to reassure them. They also have been calling students who thought they had just completed grades nine through 11 to tell them they might be retained in the fall.

The problems were found during a weeklong audit of the West Baltimore school's records prompted by its new principal, Shirley Cathorne, according to school officials.

Cathorne, chosen this month to oversee the restructuring of the 2,000-student school into smaller "learning communities," alerted central office administrators after seeing problems in student transcripts as she was performing a routine review of the records, school officials said.

A similar review at Southwestern High, also undergoing restructuring, turned up no discrepancies, officials said.

This month a state investigative panel reported that management failures contributed to the school system's $58 million budget deficit. But school officials were confident they had brought expenses in line and were getting ready to repay a $42 million bailout loan from the city.

"Just when you think you are turning the corner, something else comes along. It's the nature of the business," said Jeffery N. Grotsky, the school system's chief of staff.

As many as 125 of 396 Walbrook seniors were improperly allowed to graduate, and several hundred students might have been told they would move to the next grade despite failing or not taking required classes, officials said.

The revelation means that some ninth-, 10th- and 11th-graders might have to repeat a grade this fall. Students who need additional courses to graduate will be able to enroll in an emergency summer-school session at Walbrook to begin Tuesday, take summer online courses or attend twilight school this fall.

Registration for the 20-day summer school session will begin Monday at 9 a.m.

Students' diplomas could be certified by the end of next month if they complete summer makeup courses, school officials said. Those who already have met requirements will receive a letter and certified transcript by mail, Grotsky said.

"High school graduation is a big deal, and some of these kids are the first in their family to graduate," he said. "The worst thing would be for a student to take a job for a year and then to try to enroll in college and be told, 'You don't have the credits you need.'"

Even as officials notify students, they have begun an investigation into what went wrong at Walbrook and a broad review of records at the rest of the city's 39 high schools.

Linda Chinnia, the system's chief academic officer, said a breakdown in administrative procedures at Walbrook might have enabled students to slip through.

"It appears to look that way," Chinnia said. "That's why we are investigating ... to be certain we take corrective action so this does not happen again."

State education officials declined to comment yesterday.

City school board members said they want a thorough investigation. "It's always disappointing when the values we espouse aren't upheld by the very people charged with carrying them out," Dorothy G. Siegel, an outgoing board member.

At Walbrook yesterday afternoon, at least seven school police cars were parked around the building. A group of officers stood near the main office and were posted outside several entrances. Several employees were escorted to their cars by officers.

"It's like Fort Knox in there," said Alfred Meadows, a parent who was turned away yesterday when he tried to pick up his son's school records.

Officers loaded three cardboard boxes and four carts of files into police cars.

Grotsky said student records were removed from the building as a precaution. "We took all of those files out of school to secure them and so that kids are treated fairly," he said.

As word of the problems at Walbrook spread yesterday, some students and parents reacted with outrage and worry.

"This is really devastating," said Michael Hamilton, president of the Baltimore City Council of PTAs. "This is just another instance where the system has failed to properly educate our children."

Shaneika Taylor, 15, said she had been told she would advance to the 10th grade at Walbrook, but now she worries that she might have to repeat ninth grade.

She failed algebra this past school year - a requirement for promotion, according to Frank DeStefano, director of high schools.

"I would be really devastated," Shaneika said, "because all my other classmates are going to move up, and I've got to repeat the same grade [because of] one class."

Shaneika said she blamed the school for failing to warn students: "Now the kids are in trouble for what adults have done."

Some parents and a teacher said they are not surprised to hear about the problems at Walbrook.

Tarsha Barnes, a parent volunteer whose daughter expects to enter the 11th grade, said she knows how the promotion policy is supposed to work.

"But that's not the case at Walbrook," she said. "You can fail all your classes and still go to the next grade."

Clarice Brown, who taught Spanish at Walbrook, said grade-changing has been a problem at the school and she thinks the central administration has known about it.

This would have to be the worst failure of a school that I have ever heard of.

Sadly, this shit goes on in far too many schools. It's good to see that some are being revealed for the educational frauds they are.This is also happening in smaller schools and lower grade levels.

I am blessed with 2 extremely intelligent school aged children. They excel in their classes. My oldest reads at a 12th grade level, she is going into 4th grade.

This is all fine and great for me, but several of my childrens peers have been left in the dust, so to speak. The chalk dust of the teachers erasing boards faster than some kids can comprehend. Then the teachers want to blame the parents of these children who are struggling. That to me is the biggest bunch of BS ever! The teacher is getting paid to teach these children, she or he has guidelines and a curriculum to follow.

I have not really done anything out of the ordinary to help my children learn but I have taken an active part in their education by attending conferences and listening to them read at night. If they have homework questions I will answer them. Still, I believe it is up to the teacher, in the classroom to make sure the child is grasping the materials given.

I am nervous about my youngest who will be starting kindergarten. She is not as advanced as her sisters were when they started school. I don't want to see her struggling as I have witnessed so many other children doing this.
I am working with her at home. I have a sneaking hunch she will be more the "I am so cute and funny I can just slide on by" type than a "buckle down hit the books hard" kid.

Since we can't chose teachers for our children, chances are she will end up with the Kindergarten teacher who is more about how cute they are then teaching them phonics. My middle daughter had her, and going into first grade she knew nothing. If it had not been for a totally kick ass male teacher who made her work the next year I think she would have had to repeat 1st grade.

My best friend's solution to her disappointment with our school district? Home School. That just isn't for me. She has the patients of a saint with her children. I do not, period. Aside from that, I also believe kids needs social interaction outside of their after school friends at this age. She has had alot of problems with her kids being picked on so she feels they will get a better education without having to deal with meanies. She is probably right. I was teased unmercifully as a child/ teen and it effected me greatly. Even to this day.

Again, if our school districts were more vigilant in stopping the harrassment that happens instead of sweeping it under the rug because of small town politics she may not have to home school.

I wish I had the solution. Our schools are churning out people who cannot read or write properly because the teachers don't seem to give a shit anymore. What is needed? Higher wages, better materials to work with and more incentives, more respect towards the teachers from the students?
Maybe all these things would lead to a more dedicated caring education system.

In all honesty the No Child Left Behind law really fustrates me. I go to East Detroit High and well, for lack of better terms it sucks. This year they laid off a lot of teachers and made it a school of choice, meaning we're going to have more students and less teachers. AND because of No Child Left Behind they cut all of the applied classes, meaning the kids that need extra attention will be, I don't mean to sound mean, holding everyone else back. That's not even the beginning of it. Not only is our education below standards the school is dangerous too. I started as a freshmen last year and I got so many people who wanted to jump me because I was blonde, and I'm serious. Not only dangerous, but the school is filthy too. We had a mojor rain storm and the Common's flooded, they have to clean that up obviously and what they did still gets me. They overused the bleach like crazy. All my sister and I could smell and taste for a week was bleach, it was horrible.

But in all honesty, I might be moving this year and going to a way better school, but I'll miss East Detroit like crazy, it's so weird. :(

Am I the only one who doesn't think that No Child Left Behind might not be all bad? I live in Memphis, TN, and it has a really bad educational record. However, since NCLB passed, things are starting to improve. Reading comprehension is up, as are standardized test scores. Kids are actually learning, partially due to the NCLB Act's requirements for bringing in new faculty when a school is "failing." By bringing a great number of TN's best teachers into one school or school system, the quality of the education that is being received has vastly improved.

People are so worked up about funding education. Although I do think it matters how much we pay our teachers, little else is important in funding a school besides purchasing textbooks. If we have good teachers and good textbooks (and good students), the rest of the world can go to hell and the kids will still get a good education. Seriously. So stop whining about more money for education. We can make do with what we've got. Memphis is.

<3 Mary

The problem with NCLB is that it is causing the opposite of the problem it was meant to fix. It's at least trying to put everyone to the same standard, but because teachers are forced to make sure all the kids are on the same page, the smarter kids are kept from their full potential.

That's why I don't see a problem with classes that are for students that are 'slower' than other kids, or classes for ones that are smarter. It's really the only way the teachers can make sure that their students aren't behind while allowing the students to excel as much as they can.

i am so fucking fed up with people saying that the A level exams are getting easier! they are not!!! i've just had my results and i got B,C,C and i worked my arse off for them! then people go and completley degrade all the work we've done by saying that it's easier than ever! ARGH! :mad:

i think classes are too big in some schools. there isn't enough time to spend time with the pupils 1on 1. time should be put aside for the quieter kids who dont make a fuss and therefore get over looked!

...The chalk dust of the teachers erasing boards faster than some kids can comprehend. Then the teachers want to blame the parents of these children who are struggling. That to me is the biggest bunch of BS ever! The teacher is getting paid to teach these children, she or he has guidelines and a curriculum to follow...
Still, I believe it is up to the teacher, in the classroom to make sure the child is grasping the materials given.
I wish I had the solution. Our schools are churning out people who cannot read or write properly because the teachers don't seem to give a shit anymore. What is needed? Higher wages, better materials to work with and more incentives, more respect towards the teachers from the students?
Maybe all these things would lead to a more dedicated caring education system.
IT DOES START AT HOME. If you smoke on a daily basis and eat enough to weigh 400 lbs, would you blame the doctor if you got sick? By your logic stated here, apparently so.

Come walk in my shoes on a daily basis - parents who don't believe that education is any more important than watching cartoons; students who come to school not motivated and ill prepared at home to even be in a school. Many are not only not motivated but they are down right antagonistic towards school and learning (read: work ethic). And what do I get for my troubles? Parents like you who expect me to work miracles, all the while I make less than some of my students do selling crack on the weekends.

I have been teaching for 20 years and your finger pointing sounds like people who disparge the actions of soldiers in combat and you've never even been to a battlefield.

You talk about teaching every kid or it's "my fault". Well let me give you a little sage advice - go sub at your local school for about a month and you'll soon discover that most children don't come to as school prepared or even motivated as yours. Heck, on my days I have to play, cop, doctor, psychologist and mediator - by the end of the block I am lucky if I have covered 40 mins. of material.

It's a war zone in many of our schools today and many need to get off of your liberal-minded high horse and realize it. This ain't "Little House on the Praire" out there.

Far too many parents see school as free day care and things like homework just interfere with the parents' lives.

IT DOES START AT HOME. If you smoke on a daily basis and eat enough to weigh 400 lbs, would you blame the doctor if you got sick? By your logic stated here, apparently so.

Come walk in my shoes on a daily basis - parents who don't believe that education is any more important than watching cartoons; students who come to school not motivated and ill prepared at home to even be in a school. Many are not only not motivated but they are down right antagonistic towards school and learning (read: work ethic). And what do I get for my troubles? Parents like you who expect me to work miracles, all the while I make less than some of my students do selling crack on the weekends.

I have been teaching for 20 years and your finger pointing sounds like people who disparge the actions of soldiers in combat and you've never even been to a battlefield.

You talk about teaching every kid or it's "my fault". Well let me give you a little sage advice - go sub at your local school for about a month and you'll soon discover that most children don't come to as school prepared or even motivated as yours. Heck, on my days I have to play, cop, doctor, psychologist and mediator - by the end of the block I am lucky if I have covered 40 mins. of material.

It's a war zone in many of our schools today and many need to get off of your liberal-minded high horse and realize it. This ain't "Little House on the Praire" out there.

Far too many parents see school as free day care and things like homework just interfere with the parents' lives.

First off I am one of the few very involved parents, I spend the time that my kids need helping them with their studies. Secondly I come from a long line of teachers. My father, who has been an educator for 27 + years complains about the lack of teaching going on within the classrooms. I think it means something when a fellow educator has a bitch about this. Many teachers simply are not as dedicated as they used to be. Period.

I am no way shape or form downplaying what you have to do. I do not live in an area where the schools are a war zone. My opinion on this was more based on what I am dealing with regarding teachers than what inner city teachers are faced with. I am sorry if I offended you. I think teaching is one of the most under-paid professions in the country. It certainly seems a thank-less job at best.

I don't expect miracles in my own community either but I do expect teachers that will cover material in the classroom in a manner that all children can at least begin to grasp it.Our teachers have on average 19 per class to teach. My daughters come home with at least 2 hours of homework a night. For awhile it seemed like they weren't even being shown how to do the homework that was assigned. That does upset me.

As I said my best friend is homeschooling this year. Her Dad is a teacher and she herself is going for her teaching degree. She is one of the busiest people I know yet she is still taking time out to teach her children at home because they are not getting what they need at school. She is an amazing woman in my books.

While there are educators such as yourself who do go the extra mile and should be commended for this, there are those who live in small towns, have the benefit of small classes which allows for more one on one time with individuals who are struggling but instead go on and leave those struggling in the dust. This rant was directed at them. They give caring, dedicated educators a bad rap!

While there are educators such as yourself who do go the extra mile and should be commended for this, there are those who live in small towns, have the benefit of small classes...
I must be living in the wrong state then - I live in a small town and average about 26 students per class.

I must be living in the wrong state then - I live in a small town and average about 26 students per class.

Actually the high school averages about 22-25 per class here. It kind of depends on enrollment numbers and stuff. This community has seen times when there are 200 in the graduating class one year and 95 the next. The mines are getting ready to re-open so our schools are gearing up for an enrollment boom.

The majority of my complaints was more directed towards grade school teachers.Those early years are where the seeds of loving school and learning are planted.While volunteering in my childrens' classrooms, I have on more than one occasion seen a child put-down by not only his peers but the teacher as well because he did not grasp the material as easily as the other kids. This kid really had a hard time of it, and will now be repeating 3rd grade.

Good learning skills begin at home, which I totally agree with you on. I still feel the basics need to be covered in the classroom before a child is told to take this home, follow the directions and have your folks help you if you can't understand it. Teaching is what teacher's are paid to do(regardless of how unfair the pay is). Some fall very short, while others go above and beyond what they need to do.

Some parents don't have the ability to help their children out with certain homework assignments. I suck at algebra. When my kids need help with that a few years down the line, I am sorry to say they are SOL. I was diagnosed with a math block at about 14. I struggled with the easiest math equations, never mind anything that remotely resembles algebra. Luckily I had a few very awesome teachers who understood that a math block did not make me an idiot. However there were those who really did seem to thrive on making me look dumb in front of my classmates. I suppose you could say I had some of the worse teachers ever which could possibly explain my fears about my own children's educators.

It started early, my first grade teacher whipped my ass with a paddle because I colored something purple instead of blue. This was back in the days when kids still got spanked at school. *shudders*. I really thought that teacher was a wicked witch after school hours. She even looked like a witch with her black pointy toe shoes, hump in her nose, and all black suits she wore. To make matters worse she hated me and my family because her ex-husband was once engaged to my aunt. She took that out on me everyday of first grade. Not exactly the wonderful experience I had imagined my first year of real school being. I became pretty withdrawn after that. Missed tons of school because all the stress compromised my immune system so badly. My pediatrician loaded me up with antibiotics and I was referred to as a sickly child. People just didn't seem to put two and two together that my fears of a tyrannical teacher and peers were causing all my illnesses.

In 4th grade,I had a math teacher who made us correct each others papers and announce the grades out loud. He had a lovely grading system that consisted of A's being apples, B's being banana's, C's as in Caesar, D as in democrats, and F's as in fishes. If a kid got an F the whole class would chant ooh you've gone fishing and everyone would laugh including the teacher.Then the teacher would bawl you out in front of the class about how badly you did on your paper. How you were never going to get into college without good math grades. I got alot of Democrats and Fish in his class. I was humiliated on a daily basis. I would try to get out of math as much as possible because he was so cruel. I started faking sick, which I got away with because of my previous years as a sickly child. Staying home and watching the soaps with mom was sure more fun than going to school where you were made fun of constantly. :(

In 8th grade my earth science teacher had a nervous breakdown in front of the class. He grabbed the kid in front of me by his nose and picked him up desk and all. The kid's nose shot blood everywhere, it was pretty gruesome. I felt bad for that teacher mostly. He had been driven into a looney tune by the asshole boys in our class. The ring-leader was the boy whose nose shattered. Couldn't have happened to a nicer kid, trust me. ;)

That, thankfully was my last year in that community. We moved to a place where I had the greatest teachers ever who once again made me want to learn. I experienced that for one blissful year. Then we moved here where some very unorthodox teaching methods have been in place for decades.

This guy, hands down ,has to be the worst teacher this community ever had.A HS history teacher who used to throw boxing gloves at the kids that got answers wrong or asked what he thought was a dumb question. He actually hurt a few kids but mostly just humiliated them into silence or skipping his class which then of course he would flunk them for. I missed 10 days of school with a bad flu, did all my make-up work but he docked me 30 % of my grade because I missed that amount of his class. He tried to have me thrown out and forced to repeat it my senior year but could not because my test average was a 92%. He could not prove I was a problematic student when I did all my work required whether I was present in his class or not.
This man was allowed to do this kind of thing for years when finally he messed with the wrong kid. His parents had money,were not from around here. A lawsuit was started and he was forced to retire. Sadly, there are a few very much like him still teaching in this town.

I am hoping many of the new teachers our district has hired this year bring in some positive new ideas. Alot of the teachers now are tired, old, and fed up with the education system themselves. They are counting the days 'til retirement, not worried about how well their students are grasping concepts. Turns out about 5 retired from the grade school alone. I think it will be the best thing those kids have experienced in a long time.

Lowercountry, you keep being the awesome educator you are. I admire that fact you have been teaching for 20 years and are still sane :p.

BTW, my Dad teaches at the state prison . He says teaching inmates, many of which are murders, thieves, drug dealers, and rapists is way easier than dealing with high school students in a classroom environment.*ouch*

BTW, my Dad teaches at the state prison . He says teaching inmates, many of which are murders, thieves, drug dealers, and rapists is way easier than dealing with high school students in a classroom environment.*ouch*
I had a former teacher I knew who left public schools for a prison teaching job. I asked her afterwards what the biggest difference in the two was and she replied, "I have armed guards protecting me; you don't."

I had a former teacher I knew who left public schools for a prison teaching job. I asked her afterwards what the biggest difference in the two was and she replied, "I have armed guards protecting me; you don't."

At this prison the officers (except for an investigative group called CERT ) are unarmed but the majority of the inmates are under lock-down which makes it especially nice. If this prison decides to go super max, the education department will be closed down. If that happens my Dad will have to go back to teaching HS students.

I don't really have any suggestions, but I do know that the No Child Left Behind Act is very flawed. Case in point? My life...

Don't worry, I'll get to the NCLB part eventually.


I went to one of the crappiest schools possibly on earth. I live in a very rural area, where everyone knows everyone else, what they're doing, etc. My family had numerous run-ins with the school administration or teachers for our intelligence level. I can't help that my parents read to me as a kid, or that I soak up random knowledge. This suddenly became a bad thing. My brother Matt was severely criticized for asking thought-provoking questions of his English teacher. He was subsequently denied admission to the school chapter of the National Honor Society, because of "character defects." Another one of his teachers who had taught the Video Productions class was obviously on the deciding committee, because she intensely disliked him. He quit the class, because he wasn't allowed to do anything, and then set to making his own shows about the school, which were creative and funny. The class without him was videotaping crap like people riding down hills on dirt bikes. Because of his shows, the teacher resented him and blocked him from joining NHS, although he fully deserved it.

My sister Rachel and my brother Justin weren't treated quite so badly, but Ben certainly was screwed over. He deserved to be valedictorian. Someone pulled a few strings, got his kid's grades changed, and boom. Ben was salutatorian, despite taking college classes and commuting to take AP Calculus. He was the most intelligent and most driven kid in his grade, and salutatorian means nothing to him. (If you want a salutatorian medal, contact me, because he doesn't care at all about it.)

Now for me. I started taking French in seventh grade, because by that time, the superintendent was intensely afraid of my mother. I was a year ahead in math, and still bored out of my mind. I aced all of my classes while barely making any effort, because the curriculum was so watered down. My middle school science teacher disliked me a lot, because I frequently questioned him and/or corrected his spelling. The man was obviously not smart enough to be a teacher.

>>Fast forward one year>>

In ninth grade, Mr. Asshole science teacher was chosen to be the principal. This guy somehow had it in for anyone whose IQ was even slightly above his, which means pretty much everyone, but especially me.

He laid off my English teacher the summer after ninth grade. (Not only him, but I'm sure he played a major role in it.) Why, you ask? Because kids loved her. She was intelligent, funny, and talked to us like we were people. She somehow made class so that it wasn't too hard for anyone, but neither was it too easy.

So that fucks up the schedule beyond all repair. For me in particular, because my sophomore year, there were two sections of sophomore English offered, one section of Pre-calculus, and obviously only one section of Band. English was sixth and seventh hour, Pre-calc was sixth hour, and Band was seventh hour. So what does the school do? They sign me up for an internet course. Without my consent or knowledge. My mom and I balked at that, and said, "Well, English is very important to have a teacher there that you can interact with. Can't she take Pre-calc over the net instead?" HUGE mistake. It was AP Pre-calc, which was way over my head, since I should've obviously had a much more thorough grounding in general math, statistics, and trig. So I dropped it. THEN I was using that time as a study hall, in the computer lab with the kids who were taking Spanish online. The principal comes in one day, and says, "Come with me." He had me sit in the little conference room off the office every day for the rest of the year. Eventually the office secretary took pity on me, since when the principal wasn't looking, I kept telling her that I was going to help another girl in the computer lab with U.S. History. By the last month of the school year, I just pretty much went to the computer lab every day, because otherwise I was being held in detention. For intelligence. (Go figure.)

That was a really long paragraph. I'll chalk that up as an example of the crappy school system.

To continue sophomore year, my FRENCH teacher was teaching the sophomore English classes, which meant that both French and English suffered for it. She was being stretched too thin, and I could see it in the assignments we were being given in English. (My worst essay got a 95, and it was pure crap. I wrote it with a splitting headache, while I was coming down with the worst case of stomach flue in my life.) To make matters worse, I ended up in the "dumb" biology and history classes, since there were only two sections of each of those classes, and my sophomore class had around 60 people who were used to small classes. Biology,history and French 4 clashed so that I was in the watered-down classes. My biology teacher loved me for it, though. I tending to be the voice of reason in a class of flaming idiots.

See all my random comments? I didn't learn how to actually write an essay until this year, and anyone can see I'm not a great writer. Yet I won most English awards at my old school. If I'm a shining example of perfect essay-writing skills, I shudder for the future.

I transferred to a nearby school last year that's about half an hour away. I was able to take Accelerated English, Anatomy/Physiology, and other tough classes. The school was infinitely better.

Now let's get down to the NCLB Act. The way they graded the schools was by the test scores. My old school, Forest Park, forced everyone to take the optional Michigan standardized test (MEAP). My new school didn't. I emphasize didn't, because they do now. Forest Park was a shining example of a fine school, because more than 95% of the kids took the MEAP. At West Iron, my new school, less than 95% of the kids took it. Which means that under NCLB, Forest Park is fine. Perfect. West Iron, however, is a "failing" school. Test scores mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. No one will care how brilliant my ACT score is when I'm forty in a dead-end job. Learning is what matters.

Anyway, I think much of it starts at home. Kids will be better in school with a little prep, like etherealme does. Good job! My mom is a teacher, and she knew what she was going to do with all of us. Read. Read constantly. We barely watched TV, and we were peeved when we couldn't read at the dinner table. Now some kids, even with the best prep, may not do well.

For those kids (this is so impractical and idealistic) they need a special class. NOT like the special classes we have now, where teachers do half of the kids work, which is crap anyway. It should still be challenging to them, but tailored to their needs for their specific learning disability.

Then we could have the perfectly normal, average class.

Last, we need more advanced classes that are truly advanced. Kids need to be placed in whichever of the classes is right for them, based on their earlier school experiences. Not based on their grades, but on talks with elementary school teachers and careful studies of their strengths and weaknesses. And certainly not always where they think they should be, because there are always kids in advanced classes who shouldn't be there, and kids who are wasting their potential in classes taught below their level.

Sports should try to be as self-funded as possible, leaving more funding for the arts and other activities that don't make money from admission. If the basketball team gets new uniforms more than every 3-4 years, something's wrong. (Forest Park was very sports-centered, by the way.)

These suggestions sound a bit creepy, now that I think of it. It's probably one of the best ways to help our schools, but it'll never happen because teachers are underpaid, underappreciated, and definitely underrespected. Plus the government, Republican or Democrat, never really gives a flying fuck about education in the first place. *Sigh* We need a strong third party.

Anyway, just to tell you, my new school is going down the tubes a bit as well. I have to take AP calc with a teacher that everyone knows can't teach advanced math concepts to high school kids. He knows them, but he can't teach them. I can't take the math class that I really should be taking, with a better teacher, because that'll screw up my other AP classes. Although the schedule might work out. 8 days 'til school starts!

Sorry for being so longwinded. I'm just a wee bit frustrated. If you read this whole thing, congratulations! You get a cookie! (If you'll come to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, AKA Hell, to collect it.)

Edit=I just realized that I sound like an egomaniacal, full-of-myself bitch. Sorry. I'm leaving the post anyway.

*school- yay :rolleyes:*
*rant a-comin*

Standardized tests are crap. In Ohio, it used to be that you had to pass a 9th grade Profienciency test to graduate high school. (Anyone see anything wrong with that already??) In the Eighth grade, we had a chance to take this test, and if we passed it we would never have to take it again. I took the test, and passed every single subject. Even the kids that I knew who werent too sharp did... it was that easy.

And with AP classes and teachers... I was in AP 10th grade social studies... and 5 people in that class cared, and one of those 5 people were me. Everyday when I was trying to do my work, I would get paperwads, pens, you name it, flying at my head because I actually cared. I was in AP English last year too, and my teacher instantly hated me, and several other students in her class. I know as soon as I told her that I had been able to read since 18 months, she hated me. My Grandma unfortunately passed away in January, and I was devastated. However, my teacher did not believe me when I told her what had happened, and expected me to have all of my work that day. My friend and I are heavy into drama and choir, and twice a year we would have a performance for the school, usually 3 times near the end of the day when our English class was, and our teacher would yell at us for something that we could not get out of.

*sigh* Our school fees are high too... its not like our town doesnt have the money from taxes or anything, just two years ago, we got this HUGE performing arts/ sports building that is never ever used, and our school makes us pay hundreds of dollars in school fees.

*end rant*

Here's an article I read last week from DE. This year, Delaware tried to instate a 3-tier diploma system, where students had to take exams and were given diplomas to reflect it. I think the end of this article really sums up what the big problem is, so it's in bold for everyone to enjoy.

Those who think Delaware's decade-plus of education reform has left the state's public school system a hopeless muddle got two affirmations of their view last week.

First we learned that some of the state's brightest high school students think Delaware's three-tiered diploma system is a badly designed joke. Fortunately for them, the state has not implemented it.

Then, after years of wrangling, the state Board of Education voted to adopt a teacher accountability system. That sounds like good news, but unfortunately for reform's cheerleaders, the state has no plans to implement that, either.

So several years after lawmakers and education officials congratulated themselves on a job well done, this is what we've come to: Reams of test scores showing unremarkable improvement in some areas and no improvement in others, and "accountability" schemes for students and teachers that nobody dares to implement.

Rep. Bill Oberle, a Republican from south Newark, could have spoken for most of his colleagues when he said he didn't realize the implications of the three-tiered diploma program when he voted for it. "It would have been politically devastating at the time not to support it," he said.

For those who might not remember, that's because the original idea was that students who did not pass the tests would not get any diploma at all - that was the whole idea behind calling education reform "accountability." Imagine what would have happened to educators - and, more important, to politicians - if the students who were slated to receive a "basic" diploma this past June were being denied graduation instead. That group included 52 percent of those tested, and even higher percentages of low-income and minority students.

Meanwhile, the state board's insistence that individual teachers be held accountable for the test scores of individual students has all but scuttled teacher accountability. Understandably, the teachers think that's unfair, because students' scores hinge on much more than what and how well they're taught.

One union official likened the plan to holding police responsible for the crime rates in their patrol areas, perhaps an imperfect analogy but close enough to illustrate the folly of trying to reduce a complicated process like education to a number on a test.

The most frustrating part of all is that we live in an era when researchers are making tremendous strides in figuring out why some teaching methods work for some children but not for others, and how to reach those who don't respond to traditional, time-honored methods. We could be testing students not to figure out what they know but how they learn best, and placing them in classrooms - or, better yet, schools - tailored to their needs.

Instead our lawmakers and education officials are insisting that all students learn the same things, in most cases, the same way - and on finding someone like the teachers to blame when the impossible fails to materialize.
Maybe our whole problem is that word, "accountability." If you look it up in the dictionary, it means virtually the same thing as responsibility. But there's a subtle difference, as the state of our public schools shows. Who's responsible for this mess? I would say our lawmakers.

Who's being held accountable? I would say nobody.

What not to do: cut funding for all high school athletics, libraries, and counseling. AHEM.
School art programs included
If we admit that our primary purpose in having children in school is to help them learn, we must surely see that sports and the arts are, at best, peripheral to that aim, while teachers and textbooks are its foundation. I love arts programs, really I do. I was never a sports person, but I can certainly see how they keep kids out of trouble.

However, neither of these programs directly helps students to learn the stuff they're supposed to learn before they go out into the world. If we are graduating kids who are illiterate, we have to ask ourselves if our money might not be better spent. :( While I think it's great to fund peripheral programs, we have a primary goal here we're not meeting. That primary goal is to educate our kids. And funding arts at the expense of education is like buying diamond jewelry when you have nothing to eat. It ignores the hierarchy of needs, and it's senseless.

<3 Mary

However, neither of these programs directly helps students to learn the stuff they're supposed to learn before they go out into the world.

This is a first! The first time that I disagree with you! :)

Generally speaking, at least in my state, athletics are, for the most part, self-funded by the virtue of revenue at the gates but I know that that is not the case everywhere.

Also, athletics and extracurriculars in general serve a higher purpose beyond the books. I wholly believe that athletics and other activities are where true leadership skills are taught and developed. In addition, many of the life's lessons about teamwork and the ability to work together for any common goal are largely taught in athletics and ventures such as band.

I would dare say that many of our nation's finest leaders first showed those skills on some athletic field somewhere and that is especially true in the military.

If we admit that our primary purpose in having children in school is to help them learn, we must surely see that sports and the arts are, at best, peripheral to that aim, while teachers and textbooks are its foundation. I love arts programs, really I do. I was never a sports person, but I can certainly see how they keep kids out of trouble.

However, neither of these programs directly helps students to learn the stuff they're supposed to learn before they go out into the world. If we are graduating kids who are illiterate, we have to ask ourselves if our money might not be better spent. :( While I think it's great to fund peripheral programs, we have a primary goal here we're not meeting. That primary goal is to educate our kids. And funding arts at the expense of education is like buying diamond jewelry when you have nothing to eat. It ignores the hierarchy of needs, and it's senseless.

<3 Mary

I disagree, too.

I've never been too big of a sports person, but I do know they can build self-confidence for many people, and that is an important thing - which may help with other areas in learning.

Art is a well-grounded foundation. It gets kids thinking and using their imagination and creativity in many ways. This can also help in other areas of education.

Both art and sports can be a temporary release from the stresses of everything, including the textbook part of school.

The only thing I really didn't like about sports in most schools, is that, at least in the schools I went to, most of the money went to just sports and equipment, and art programs (including music) were very neglected. I think both extracurricular activites should be equal with each other. But that is a whole other debate, I guess...

This is a first! The first time that I disagree with you! :)
I don't think you really do. I just didn't make myself clear. Let me rephrase.

Generally speaking, at least in my state, athletics are, for the most part, self-funded by the virtue of revenue at the gates but I know that that is not the case everywhere.

Also, athletics and extracurriculars in general serve a higher purpose beyond the books. I wholly believe that athletics and other activities are where true leadership skills are taught and developed. In addition, many of the life's lessons about teamwork and the ability to work together for any common goal are largely taught in athletics and ventures such as band.
I would dare say that many of our nation's finest leaders first showed those skills on some athletic field somewhere and that is especially true in the military.
Right, they do teach leadership and teamwork, etc., etc. But sports and music don't directly teach math and science and English and all the stuff we really need to SURVIVE in the world. Our sports programs are way better funded than our arts programs, and both seem to be better funded than our academic programs. And no, the revenue isn't just what comes in at the gates, as almost nothing does.

I do think these programs need to exist, but would you agree that we should fund the essential learning tools (like teachers and textbooks) before we worry about sports and music and art? When we are graduating star athletes who can't read, there's a big fat problem. Our priorities are mixed up. Schools should be in the business of educating. As I said, it's like buying pretty diamonds to wear when you are dying of hunger.

You still may not agree with me, but I just think that organizations should meet their primary obligations before they take on secondary ones.

<3 Mary

Our sports programs are way better funded than our arts programs, and both seem to be better funded than our academic programs. And no, the revenue isn't just what comes in at the gates, as almost nothing does.
We must be really lucky here in the South; I've been in high school athletics for 20 years and gate revenues from football pretty much have always paid for itself and all of the other sports. About the only sport that gets a dime from the educational pot, so to speak, is cheerleading (and even there not much).

We must be really lucky here in the South; I've been in high school athletics for 20 years and gate revenues from football pretty much have always paid for itself and all of the other sports. About the only sport that gets a dime from the educational pot, so to speak, is cheerleading (and even there not much).
I guess I just don't live far south enough. I'm a Memphian. We don't fund anything. Period. Ever. Except for, say, the occasional useless deficit-building sports complexes that don't make money (*coughFedExForumPyramidColiseumcough*)

<3 Mary

Ladies and gentlemen I bring to you, the random neg rep of the day:
"I agree with what they are saying"

And? Am I a bad person for *gasp* debating in the debate forum? Children, please.

Kids having problems passing classes, dropping out? Let's lower the passing standard so they don't have to put in extra effort!

So yeah, Baltimore has decided to lower the minimum passing grade for key subjects (math, reading, etc), not by a couple of points, but from 70 to 60.

Link here (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/education/bal-te.md.promotion15aug15,0,1701987.story?page=2&coll=bal-home-headlines)


Passing easier in city schools
Board has lowered minimum mark from 70 to 60 in key subjects

When city school students return to class Aug. 28, they'll find it easier to advance because the minimum passing grade for key subjects has been lowered from 70 to 60, a change that abandons a six-year-old policy once hailed as shock therapy for a troubled system.

With little fanfare or public input, the city school board voted 6-1 in early June, with one abstention, to reduce the minimum passing marks in reading, math and some science classes in the first through 12th grades.

Minutes of the board's June 13 meeting show that despite concerns about the lack of public debate, the board made the significant policy change in an unusually hurried fashion.

The sole vote against the change was cast by board member Anirban Basu, who argued that the new policy was, in effect, a lowering of academic standards.

"Trying to change outcomes by merely changing the number, as opposed to performance, doesn't work," Basu said yesterday. "Before, a student who got a 62 did not pass. Today, a student that gets a 62 passes. To me, that's what it means to lower standards."

The June vote was overshadowed by the speculation about the future of Bonnie S. Copeland, who stepped down a short time later as schools chief. Her decision to quit was the climax of a tumultuous three-year stint punctuated by an attempt by the state to seize control of 11 failing city schools.

According to a transcript of the meeting, school board Chairman Brian D. Morris appeared to express hesitation after hearing Basu's objection, but he voted along with the board's majority.

"My initial thought was we were lowering standards," Morris said yesterday, "but how are we lowering standards if every other district has the same standards?"

During the meeting, Morris also indicated that he preferred to have more than a single hearing before voting on what he called "significant policy changes."

Board member James W. Campbell agreed, saying, "I think there should be a hearing and get public input on a change like this. We could get criticism if people don't understand it."

But after board member Kalman R. Hettleman assured the board that the issue had been discussed at previous meetings of the Parent and Community Advisory Board, Morris agreed to the vote.

It was not clear from the transcript who abstained.

The city schools have become political fodder in the gubernatorial battle between Mayor Martin O'Malley, a Democrat, and Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich a Republican.

In a TV campaign ad, Ehrlich stands on a tree-lined street and says: "This Baltimore neighborhood deserves excellent public schools, but with some students unable to read their diplomas, 54 schools need help immediately."

The state school board voted to take over 11 of the schools, but the move was thwarted by the legislature, which "voted to give the mayor more time," Ehrlich says

In a radio ad, O'Malley's running mate, Del. Anthony G. Brown, says: "It's shameful to watch Maryland's governor attack the hard work and dedication of Baltimore's teachers, parents and students, when the facts show Baltimore's schools are making real progress."

An O'Malley spokeswoman said last night that the minimum passing grade "doesn't matter. What matters is that the students are proficient in the skills they need. If they deserve to pass ... they should. If not, they shouldn't."
In 1999, the school board voted to raise the minimum passing grade from 60 to 70 and to end the policy of social promotion, or sending students to the next grade even if they failed to meet academic standards.
Now, it appears that a limited version of social promotion remains in place.

According to the schools' revised promotion and graduation policy, elementary and middle school pupils who have been held back one year "should be promoted, even if the student does not meet the standards for promotion."
A spokeswoman for the school system said the policy against "multiple retentions" has been in effect at least since the 2003-2004 school year.

The lowered minimum passing grade will go into effect when the new school year begins Aug. 28.

School officials say the impetus behind the change was not to boost graduation numbers but to address a problem that has hindered seniors in city schools who were seeking admission to college.

The officials also justified the change as a way to put the city's grading system in line with those of other school districts across the state where the passing grade is also 60, according to a transcript of the June 13 meeting.

At the meeting, the school board heard college experts testify that the school system's minimum passing grade of 70 confused some college admission officers and hurt city applicants.

College admissions officers presume that a Baltimore student's barely passing grade of 72 is the equivalent of 62 in one of the counties, testified Sharice McGill, an admissions director at Villa Julie College. City education officials maintain that even a barely passing grade in the city is the equivalent of a C.

"So the students have an inflated idea of what their GPA is," McGill said. "Especially if you get outside the state of Maryland ... where the college may not be as familiar with Baltimore City public schools, the students are at an automatic disadvantage because that 72 is now [perceived by admissions officers as] a D. That is going to be hard to accept at a lot of place."

As of yesterday, many parents of children attending Baltimore public schools weren't aware of the change, and many disapproved strongly when they learned of it.

"I'm very angry," said Donna Lowe-Tolson, whose daughter Jasmine, 9, will be a fourth-grader at Robert W. Coleman Elementary School.

"So now to pass you don't have to work at all? All you need is a D to pass? We're talking about the world becoming even more competitive, but we're making our children less equipped to compete with other countries, and even other states. We're teaching them to give up."

Joseph Armstead, a city worker who pays for his four children to attend parochial schools, said the lowered standards make it even less likely that he would send his children to public schools.

"It really hurts me to have to pay that tuition," he said. "But I think this is a setback. They are saying the demands on children are going to be eased? If anything, I think the demands need to be increased."

Not all parents objected.

"I think it's great," said Connie Riles, who's 15-year-old daughter, Ashley, is studying cosmetology at Carver Vocational-Technical High School. "It's helping some that want to stay in school but can't pick up on some of the work. You have some kids that just can't get a 70, and I feel it's a great thing because 60 is good, and 65 is good, too."

Jessica Gaines, 15, a junior at Carver, said many students will be pleased to learn of the change.

"It'll be good for the students who don't work hard, because some kids don't like to go to class, and you can get a 60 without going to class now, anyway," she said.

The fact that they are doing this is mind-boggling. They swear it's not but considering what a hot topic Baltimore education is in the run for governor, it will be pretty convienent for O'Malley that more children will be "passing" by the time that the election comes around.

Look at that last quote...."you can get a 60 without going to class now anyway." The school system that is getting this barely has over half of their children getting their diplomas as it is (less than half, depending on whether you support O'Malley or Ehrlich), and now they are making it easier for kids to get through without learning. The fact that they are using this as a "solution" to promoting children to the next grade who haven't met the standards for the lower grade is ridiculous.





My kid is going to private school

In the U.S. people can spend $7 each day at starbucks but won't invest into education, that pretty much sums it up for me. Schools themselves are underfunded, most of the staff doesn't support each other, and the schools are over crowded. Not to mention gang violence, drugs ect... How does someone cure this?

Part of the problem is that people gave up on the community and the public schools. Which works its way down to more importantly the children who suffer from this. People are to busy watching TV, on the internet, and what have you that they could care less what their kids did in school. The other part is parents no longer support the teachers they are more intersted in complaining about what they shouldn't teach as opposed to what the students actually learn.

The other problem is the school structure and the teachers not picking up on the different learning styles. All teachers should have to continue there education by going to teaching classes. Teachers themselves as well as the staff should support each other, instead of undermining each other.

The children themselves lack discpline or respect for anything. The parents drop the kids off high on sugar and caffiene and expect the teachers to calm them down and try and teach them. The parents treat schools as a daycare and expect the teachers to do everything.

If you feel that sending your child to a private school is the best answer, shame on you for giving up on the children, education, and the community. Selfishness has killed the public schools in the US.

In the U.S. people can spend $7 each day at starbucks but won't invest into education, that pretty much sums it up for me.

I don't go to Starbucks, but I see your point.

If you feel that sending your child to a private school is the best answer, shame on you for giving up on the children, education, and the community. Selfishness has killed the public schools in the US.

It's easy to judge when you don't have your own.

You can either send your child to a school that basically admits they have failed and would rather push children through the ranks than actually educate them, or you can shell out thousands a year to make sure your child gets a proper education. I'll take the latter. It's not selfish to want to give your child the best. It's not giving up on her child, it's giving him/her the best education possible.

Selfishness HAS killed the public schools. Selfishness has killed everything great in this country. But, choosing to send your children to private school is not selfish. it may not be the answer to the problem, but there is nothing wrong with it.

I don't go to Starbucks, but I see your point.



It's easy to judge when you don't have your own.

You can either send your child to a school that basically admits they have failed and would rather push children through the ranks than actually educate them, or you can shell out thousands a year to make sure your child gets a proper education. I'll take the latter. It's not selfish to want to give your child the best. It's not giving up on her child, it's giving him/her the best education possible.

Selfishness HAS killed the public schools. Selfishness has killed everything great in this country. But, choosing to send your children to private school is not selfish. it may not be the answer to the problem, but there is nothing wrong with it.

What made America great was the communities and the support but that has been lost. Political theorists such as Robert Putnam have documented the problems of low Social Capital and low community support.

My question to Thelady, is if you cared so much about your child and you happen to send your child to a public school how involved would you be? Would you be Part of the PTA? Would you go to the parent teacher conferences? When tax levies for public schools are you organizing and helping the campaign? Get people to vote? What if the children and your child included saw the hard work you put in and they started to care about school and their community? What if they become involved? Teachers, neighbors, and faculty saw your passion and started to care? Does a private school teach this? Or does it teach a untrue reality?

All those questions I asked are what true Americans should do. I am not scaring people with what I am saying I am not even being political, I am straight talking. Americans are their own terrorists; we will destroy ourselves before others destroy us. There is no valid reason that the schools are failing, Because as American we are failing, each other and ourselves. When you send your child to a public school, you are selfish towards the community, the other children, the teachers, the faculty and to America. All these people need you, to serve your country.

If a CEO sells all of his operations overseas but provides a good living for his family is he being selfish? I think its selfish

Read the Book “the Jane Addams Reader” it’s by Jane Addams. It discusses the role of the community and the American people. How she along with her community made the difference.

THeLady I am not attacking you I am just trying to get you to empathize as well as for anybody who reads this, I'm product of both public and private, and i wouldn't be typing to you today if I had not graduated from a public school.

My question to Thelady, is if you cared so much about your child and you happen to send your child to a public school how involved would you be? Would you be Part of the PTA? Would you go to the parent teacher conferences? When tax levies for public schools are you organizing and helping the campaign? Get people to vote? What if the children and your child included saw the hard work you put in and they started to care about school and their community? What if they become involved? Teachers, neighbors, and faculty saw your passion and started to care? Does a private school teach this? Or does it teach a untrue reality?


The school system would get better if more parents were involved. I'm not disagreeing with you there. (And I know you're not attacking me).

But, if the school system itself gives up on kids and just starts pushing them ahead without an education, why should a parent still enroll their child in the substandard system?

No matter what school I enroll my child in, I would be extremely involved. I would attend every parent-teacher conference and be a part of the PTA. But how many others can say that? But, I would not put my child into a substandard school system from the beginning. If the public schools in my area were below standard, I wouldn't hesitate to shell out the thousands for the better education.

What's selfish is parents dumping their kids into the public school system and not being active within in. The selfish ones are the educators that have given up o