this has happened in my area, not sure if United States done away with this, but here goes.


the supreme court has banned prayer in schools and public events. they say it breaks all the rules, but it is my right to pray or not in public. no one listens to it anyway I still pray in public. they might as well throw away the bill of rights.

what is your thoughts on this. :)

I think that if people wat to do that they can.. They cannot simply just stop someone's religious practise like that can they?

people should pray if they want to. as long as people don't have to pray at school praying is ok....

Please clarify your post.

What exactly is "your area", and to which "supreme court" do you refer?

Thanks!

students should not be forced to pray.

However, if they choose, they should be allowed to pray.

I am all for the "moments of silence" some schools are doing.

Wouldn't that just apply for things like school assemblies where all the pupils are made to pray?

Please clarify your post.

What exactly is "your area", and to which "supreme court" do you refer?

Thanks! I mean SOUTH CAROLINA and UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.


like I said before It is my choice to pray in public or private no governement is going to tell me that I can't.

Political correctness is a load of s**t. Or is that a load of naturally produced waste material.

Any way people should be able to pray anywhere they want, although I don't think people should be forced into it either. It should be completly left out of school rules to dictate what children should or shouldn't do with regards to religion in my opinion.

..weird.
I am going to say.. when it is okay for someone who's religious teachings would involve an animal sacrifice etc. (you get my point) to be practiced in public, should praying be.
The christian religion (not to insult. I was once myself.) has had far too much leeway. There are so many other religions and cultures in the world, and they should all be treated equally...
Like the whole gay marriage thing. It is frowned upon by the christian religion. Christian is the mainstream. Therefore basically, by not allowing gay marriage, other cultures have been degraded. basically being told 'your beliefs don't matter' because of their cdultures different beliefs. I am not trying to turn this all into a religion against religion thing, but I think a more important argument rather than.. 'Should we be allowed to pray publically' should be 'will we ever stop descriminating'.

I think that people should definitely be able to pray whenever and wherever they want. However, people should never be forced into it because religion is a very delicate matter. Also, it should be left out of school curriculum.

I mean SOUTH CAROLINA and UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.


like I said before It is my choice to pray in public or private no governement is going to tell me that I can't.
Please provide the case citation wherein the U.S. Supreme Court has said that you cannot pray in public.

i pray all the time. but people dont know that i am, you dont have to close your eyes or whatever to pray, and noone can stop me cos they cant tell me what to think

I think it should be banned.
Church and state are seperate. Therfore, no prayer should be done in PUBLIC schools.
As far as public events, my class debated the right to pray at sports events. We came to the conclusion that if a team wanted to pray before a game, it should be done before walking onto the field. A locker room being the ideal place. That way, the other team does not have to have moments of silence while the other team prays.

I think it should be banned.
Church and state are seperate. Therfore, no prayer should be done in PUBLIC schools.
As far as public events, my class debated the right to pray at sports events. We came to the conclusion that if a team wanted to pray before a game, it should be done before walking onto the field. A locker room being the ideal place. That way, the other team does not have to have moments of silence while the other team prays.
At first I thought this was the fucking stupidest law ever. But what you said kinda makes sense. I mean, if I'm playing in a tennis tournament, while I respect other religions, I seriously don't want to be looking at my opponent praying for victory. (BTW I'm agnostic)

However, I think that banning prayers in schools has taken it a step too far. You're not exactly making anyone uncomfortable or wasting anyone else's time or disrupting anyone else by praying quietly in school - its not that hard to find a private place.

i pray all the time. but people dont know that i am, you dont have to close your eyes or whatever to pray, and noone can stop me cos they cant tell me what to think
Exactly. Even if praying is banned, who's gonna catch you? I used to be Christian, and I was taught that all that closing eyes and other body gestures are not important - a prayer is a prayer. Of course, that's what I was taught as a Christian - or former Christian, I've decided to become agnostic - so depending on your religion and what you were taught, that could be different. But still, who's gonna catch you and punish you for praying?

Everytime I hear something like this, I think about how our freedom is just inching away... The government calls it "A Free Country" and the Pilgrims came here to begin with so they could have "Freedom of Religion" and now we can't pray in public. What a shame.

I agree with people here, people should be allowed to pray all they like as long as it's not disturbing anybody. But nobody should be forced to do it either.

I feel there's been a lot of talk about "hiding" all religions. I think there's some law in France that you can't wear anything religion-related in school, like crosses or anything, even as just jewellery. I feel it's somehow connected with all the terrorism and "Holy Wars" around or something. Maybe they think that if all public signs of religion are banned then there won't be any differences regarding religion, that people can't be branded. I understand it in some way but then again, most people want to show their faith.

Anyways, if you just pray quietly, nobody can ban it, nobody can even tell. There's no such thing as thought police in the real world and it's kind of ridiculous to assume you could ban something like this.

Everytime I hear something like this, I think about how our freedom is just inching away... The government calls it "A Free Country" and the Pilgrims came here to begin with so they could have "Freedom of Religion" and now we can't pray in public. What a shame.


but what about the people's freedom NOT to pray.

but what about the people's freedom NOT to pray.
Amen. (LOL) I don't think that prayer should be allowed in schools. Why should we allow prayer if we don't allow the pledge of allegiance?

Organized prayer should be left out of the school area, but if I want to say the pledge of allegiance or a prayer on my own, then I damn well can. I have freedom of speech, and anyone who doesn't like it DOES NOT have a section of the Bill of Rights dedicated to how they have the right to not be offended. No one's forcing you to pray. Are you saying you have the RIGHT to not hear anything that you don't feel like hearing?

To the punisher:
Please provide the case citation wherein the U.S. Supreme Court has said that you cannot pray in public.

Why should we allow prayer if we don't allow the pledge of allegiance?
To ROXANNE:
What school district disallows recitation of the pledge of allegiance?

To anyone else who is contemplating posting what they think about this issue, please include some kind of rational basis for your opinion. Everyone has an opinion, but it's not a debatable argument unless you have something backing it up.

Prayer was officially nationally banned from schools (the public leading and forced partaking of) in 1962. The 60's gave us a counter-culture movement that paved the way to widespread drug use and the beginning of moral decay in our society.

Coincidence? I think not.

Prayer was officially nationally banned from schools (the public leading and forced partaking of) in 1962. The 60's gave us a counter-culture movement that paved the way to widespread drug use and the beginning of moral decay in our society.

Coincidence? I think not.
I once heard a wise man say "correlation does not equal causation".
;)

Prayer was officially nationally banned from schools (the public leading and forced partaking of) in 1962. The 60's gave us a counter-culture movement that paved the way to widespread drug use and the beginning of moral decay in our society.

Coincidence? I think not.I am gonna have to agree with ToB here. I come from the heart of the "Bible Belt", where there is a church on every corner, and some just all piled together. (in case you are wondering, the "Bible Belt" begins in Georgia [I think], and spreads northward clear to West Virginia [I think]. I am from the Appalachias, in eastern Kentucky) Now, given that I come from a very poor area of the states, and I also went to a school which had 49 graduating seniors the year I graduated (including me), the corrupting things were far less prevalent in my society. Our school had a Prayer Group, in which every morning before school we would convene in a specific room (home ec, actually, as the teacher was also a willing soul) and have our morning prayers. You were not required to participate, but what could it hurt?
Being as you know the way I was presented with prayer in schools, I must draw your attention to National Prayer Day in 1996. (I do need to check the date on this, some of the older EvBoard members may also remember this) In London Ky, a group of students were gathered around the American Flag saying their morning prayers when another student broke out a gun and started killing them because they were having a prayer session out in the school yard. This day scared the living SHIT out of me, because that could have been me, as I was doing the exact same thing at the exact same time.
There is a solution to this, however. I believe that each school, should the school board and state and national laws permit it, have a preselected time once a week for students to gather and say prayers, or chants , or whatever their religion should direct them to do. This is assuming that all activity would be age appropriate and also school behavior appropriate.
This is just my thought on the subject. I believe the world would be a better place if each person were given the chance to participate in a "prayer-like" ceremony on a daily basis. Regardless of the religion you choose, you should not be persecuted. Unfortunatley we come from a society full of bigots (who knows, maybe I am one of those) and everyone is too worried what someone else will think.



deb

edit: these shootings happened in Paducah, not London, although they are very close to each other.

edit2: the date was also wrong: Dec. 1, 1997. Also, this happened after I graduated. [oh well] link for semi-article: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

I am gonna have to agree with ToB here. I come from the heart of the "Bible Belt", where there is a church on every corner, and some just all piled together. (in case you are wondering, the "Bible Belt" begins in Georgia [I think], and spreads northward clear to West Virginia [I think]. I am from the Appalachias, in eastern Kentucky) Now, given that I come from a very poor area of the states, and I also went to a school which had 49 graduating seniors the year I graduated (including me), the corrupting things were far less prevalent in my society. Our school had a Prayer Group, in which every morning before school we would convene in a specific room (home ec, actually, as the teacher was also a willing soul) and have our morning prayers. You were not required to participate, but what could it hurt?
Being as you know the way I was presented with prayer in schools, I must draw your attention to National Prayer Day in 1996. (I do need to check the date on this, some of the older EvBoard members may also remember this) In London Ky, a group of students were gathered around the American Flag saying their morning prayers when another student broke out a gun and started killing them because they were having a prayer session out in the school yard. This day scared the living SHIT out of me, because that could have been me, as I was doing the exact same thing at the exact same time.
There is a solution to this, however. I believe that each school, should the school board and state and national laws permit it, have a preselected time once a week for students to gather and say prayers, or chants , or whatever their religion should direct them to do. This is assuming that all activity would be age appropriate and also school behavior appropriate.
This is just my thought on the subject. I believe the world would be a better place if each person were given the chance to participate in a "prayer-like" ceremony on a daily basis. Regardless of the religion you choose, you should not be persecuted. Unfortunatley we come from a society full of bigots (who knows, maybe I am one of those) and everyone is too worried what someone else will think.



deb

edit: these shootings happened in Paducah, not London, although they are very close to each other.

I agree, people who have religion in their lives tend to live better, more moral lives.

But there is such a thing as peer pressure. Even a moment of silence is dangerous. Say the principal of a school comes on the intercom to have a moment of silence by saying something like now is the moment of silence, please take a moment to reflect, and pray if you so choose. I'm willing to be those kids will pray, just because they feel they are expected to, especially if they see their teacher praying.

and doesnt it say something about the decay of a society when one is expected to be religious to have morals? Why can one not have morals and be an atheist?

I agree, people who have religion in their lives tend to live better, more moral lives.

But there is such a thing as peer pressure. Even a moment of silence is dangerous. Say the principal of a school comes on the intercom to have a moment of silence by saying something like now is the moment of silence, please take a moment to reflect, and pray if you so choose. I'm willing to be those kids will pray, just because they feel they are expected to, especially if they see their teacher praying.

and doesnt it say something about the decay of a society when one is expected to be religious to have morals? Why can one not have morals and be an atheist?
I am not saying that everyone should "pray". I am saying that they should be given the ability to worship whatever "god" [or not "god"] that they choose. I think we should just be given the chance to. Once a week is not alot . Some people are very proud of their religion, or lack thereof. THey should be able to express that without retaliation.

deb

How can a non-religious child be forced to pray during a moment of silence when he doesn't know how to or to whom?

How can a non-religious child be forced to pray during a moment of silence when he doesn't know how to or to whom?

most familes have some kind of religion, whether it is christian or otherwise. I grew up a multitude of protestant religions, and have chosen to observe a god my own way. That is what I propose, that each child be permitted to pray (or whatever they choose), whether they do or not, is the choice of the child.

deb

How can a non-religious child be forced to pray during a moment of silence when he doesn't know how to or to whom?

Moment of silence doesn't mean you have to pray. You can think about whatever you're having the moment of silence for.

Anyway, personal prayer or prayer with groups of friends should be allowed, but something like the whole school praying obviously shouldn't.

As long as it doesn't step on anyone's toes, why does it matter?

That is just plain stupid.

I live in canada, and they did not do this here, hopefully never will. I am christian, and I would get mighty upset if people were not allowed to pray in public. If they do that, they might as well limit our closets and start food rationing and controll our thoughts.

EDIT: I totally agree with ToB's remark higher on this page.

That is just plain stupid.
Yes it is! Oh wait. What was "that", again?

Yes it is! Oh wait. What was "that", again?
I LOVE YOU, MAN!!

stupid 20
deb

I think that people should definitely be able to pray whenever and wherever they want. However, people should never be forced into it because religion is a very delicate matter. Also, it should be left out of school curriculum.

I totally agree with that when I was in my first school me being about 5 years old we were made to pray. I had no concept of what religion was at all which is rather like brain-washing someone into something because basically I didn't know what I was doing or why. It wasn't even a "religious" school they just made us pray in assembly. Religion is a personal choice and it should be looked upon as a personal right to be able to be religious wherever you want to be. My mum works in a place where there are alot of different people with different religions and they have special prayer rooms and even a chapel because these people have to pray at certain times. They do it when they need to which is the way it should be.

Personally, im impartial to its banning. Ive never understood 'moments of silence' and ive never really reflected on anything or gone into deep thought about anything at school unless its something I like about what im being taught and ive never even liked pledging to the flag, either- i dont really do public pledges or prayers, anyway.

But, I think, in general, allow people to pray wherever and whenever as long as it does not infringe on anything or violate anything.

To ROXANNE:
What school district disallows recitation of the pledge of allegiance?

To anyone else who is contemplating posting what they think about this issue, please include some kind of rational basis for your opinion. Everyone has an opinion, but it's not a debatable argument unless you have something backing it up.


+ (http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/)

In my school district, they quit reciting the pledge of allegiance when I was in grade school. I would have no objection to them reinstating the pledge, once they take out the phrase "under God" which was ADDED in 1954.

That is what I propose, that each child be permitted to pray (or whatever they choose), whether they do or not, is the choice of the child.
Why should a child, who chooses not to pray, have to have a moment of silence while the others do? Prayer should not be in public schools. Why don't the parents have their children, who choose to pray, do so before school? That way it saves everyone the debate.

I am not saying that everyone should "pray". I am saying that they should be given the ability to worship whatever "god" [or not "god"] that they choose. I think we should just be given the chance to. Once a week is not alot . Some people are very proud of their religion, or lack thereof. THey should be able to express that without retaliation.

deb


the problem with letting children express their religion is that children have a tendency to try push their views on others.

Look at fads and such.

Why should a child, who chooses not to pray, have to have a moment of silence while the others do?
Why is that a problem? Why should the majority who don't mind the moment of silence have to change their ways for the few nit picky ones, when you can easily just stand there and think about whatever you want during that moment of silence? Why is it more important to restrict a simple freedom for many only to placate a couple of people who don't have any special rights to the contrary?

Also, if you hate God in the pledge so much, are you willing that the word should be removed from all our currency and every last remotely governmental thing across the country?

In my school district, they quit reciting the pledge of allegiance when I was in grade school. I would have no objection to them reinstating the pledge, once they take out the phrase "under God" which was ADDED in 1954.

Shall we burn the Declaration of Independance and tear down the US Supreme Court building while we are at it?

I think that all government buildings that were built in the Greco-Roman style ought to be torn down. I don't want my government to promote the evil paganism which was practiced by those cultures. Furthermore, all Christmas trees and mistletoe should be burned. I do not want the Celtic religions promoted. I think we should also stop allowing all government empoyees from taking religious vacation. By allowing government employees to take a religious vacation, we are destroying the wall of separation of church and state. All copies of the Federalist and most other papers written by the Founders must be removed from public schools because they mention Deity. Furthermore, we should remove any and all materials which might promote the religion of scientology. We must eradicate the faith of atheism in modern science. We must stop swearing oaths in the court. All marriages should be banned since most people are too stupid to tell the difference between religious and state marriage anyway. Any child from the age of 5 onward should be expelled if he even starts to think about bowing his head at anytime during school. All children caught wearing any article bearing religious signifigance will be put in detention. There is no longer and such thing as a conscientious objector (go to war you pussies). And government official caught doing anything of religious signifigance, especially praying for wisdom before making a decision, shall be impeached. Spring, fall, and winter break should be banned. We all know that they are really just reasons for Religions to celebrate their voodoo dances anyway. No government calendar may mention Christmas and any government official who mentions the term will be shot. All parochial schools should be seized by the government and made public. Homeschooling should be banned, since we all know that homeschoolers cant possibly do anything without government assistance and all they do is sit around and read the bible. The Horror! :rolleyes:

Shall we burn the Declaration of Independance and tear down the US Supreme Court building while we are at it?

I think ... The Horror! :rolleyes:
d00d. Put down the coffee and slowly back away. Everything will be alright in about 2 hours. Until then, just try to keep your breathing regular.


Excellent post by the way!

P.S. - ROXANNE, there is a bit of difference between not reciting the pledge of allegiance as a regular practice and prohibiting the recitation of the pledge altogether.

And since you weren't kind enough to answer my question, I had to go digging myself. You list "Kenosha, Wisconsin" as your location. From the Kenosha Unified School District web site (http://www.kusd.edu/), I found this in the Pleasant Prairie Elementary School 2003-04 Parent/Student Handbook (http://www.kusd.edu/schools/pprairie/handbook/handbook6.html):
The Pledge of Allegiance must be said in the classroom at a minimum of at least every Wednesday morning. According to the Rules and Regulations of the Board of Education all children, unless there are religious or other objections, should participate in this event.
Would you like to clarify your statement that "In [your] school district, they quit reciting the pledge of allegiance..."?

Does anyone still call into question the necessity for one-size-fits-all, nationalized, standardized, Prussian-model* government schooling? Why can't we separate education from government, and allow a diversity of schools to emerge, some of which but not all including: religious activity, the pledge of allegiance, homeschooling collectives, etc. This debate reminds me of Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift.

Which two mighty powers have, as I was going to tell you, been engaged in a most obstinate war for six and thirty moons past. It began on the following occasion. It is allowed on all hands, that the primitive way of breaking eggs before we eat them, was upon the larger end: but his present Majesty's grandfather, while he was a boy, going to eat an egg, and breaking it according to the ancient practice, happened to cut one of his fingers. Whereupon the Emperor his Father, published an edict, commanding all his subjects, upon great penalties, to break the smaller end of the eggs. The people so highly resented this law, that our histories tell us, there have been six rebellions raised on that account; wherein one Emperor lost his Life, and another his crown. These civil commotions were constantly fomented by the monarchs of Blefuscu; and when they were quelled, the exiles have always fled for refuge to that empire. It is computed, that eleven thousand persons have, at several times, suffered death, rather than submit to break their eggs at the smaller end. Many hundred large volumes have been published on this controversy: but the books of the Big-Endians have been long forbidden, and the whole party rendered incapable by law of holding employments.

Can you see how this excerpt relates to this thread?

* Google "prussian model school" if you haven't heard of this.

d00d. Put down the coffee and slowly back away. Everything will be alright in about 2 hours. Until then, just try to keep your breathing regular.

Hehe. You know me too well. Actually, I hadn't had any coffee yet. I had actually just rolled out of bed. Sorry about that. I'm a little cranky in the morning. :)

Can you see how this excerpt relates to this thread?

An absolutely amazing quotation. I can't believe that I didn't remember that until know. Thank you. :)

Why should a child, who chooses not to pray, have to have a moment of silence while the others do? Prayer should not be in public schools. Why don't the parents have their children, who choose to pray, do so before school? That way it saves everyone the debate.

I am not saying that they should have to. I am just saying they should at least be given the chance.


the problem with letting children express their religion is that children have a tendency to try push their views on others.

Look at fads and such.
If a child being exposed to all possibilities of religion is the major plight in life, then these children need to be shielded! :rolleyes:

I believe that each school district should have the ability to choose to (or not) have a moment of silence, for whatever purpose. Time has told us that prayer (or meditation) does help the soul, giving a feeling of enlightenment. Who wouldn't want to be enlighted? Not me. I will take all the enlightenment I can get.

deb

[If a child being exposed to all possibilities of religion is the major plight in life, then these children need to be shielded! :rolleyes:

That is your point of view, which is exactly my point. Look the fact of the matter is, there are alot of religions in this world where it is blasphemy(sp?) to even witness some practicing a different religion. Whether or not that is right or wrong is irrelavent. It is not the job of the schools to teach religious tolerance. It is the parents. And again implying that being exposed to different religions is not a big deal is your opinion. There are alot of parents who would disagree with you. Sure they may be closed minded, but they still have the right to what their kid is exposed to.

That is your point of view, which is exactly my point. Look the fact of the matter is, there are alot of religions in this world where it is blasphemy(sp?) to even witness some practicing a different religion. Whether or not that is right or wrong is irrelavent. It is not the job of the schools to teach religious tolerance. It is the parents. And again implying that being exposed to different religions is not a big deal is your opinion. There are alot of parents who would disagree with you. Sure they may be closed minded, but they still have the right to what their kid is exposed to.

I have two children, and I hope both of them get exposed to all forms of religion (or nonreligion), so they can make up their mids for themselves, not what someone on a pedestal somewhere says they have to. I just think that our nation would be better off with an option. that is all.
The people who came up with religions where you cannot witness another should be reprimanded. God is a form equal to what you want him/her to be. We (as citizens of the US) should be able to worship in our own way, without retaliation from anyone, religious or not.

deb

P.S. - ROXANNE, there is a bit of difference between not reciting the pledge of allegiance as a regular practice and prohibiting the recitation of the pledge altogether.

And since you weren't kind enough to answer my question, I had to go digging myself. You list "Kenosha, Wisconsin" as your location. From the Kenosha Unified School District web site (http://www.kusd.edu/), I found this in the Pleasant Prairie Elementary School 2003-04 Parent/Student Handbook (http://www.kusd.edu/schools/pprairie/handbook/handbook6.html):

Would you like to clarify your statement that "In [your] school district, they quit reciting the pledge of allegiance..."?
Since I wasn't kind enough to answer your question in the first post. I think I did. You have disproved me about the pledge of allegiance for the ENTIRE district (pleasant prairie). That does not disprove the fact that the school I went to, quit reciting the pledge in grade school, not to mention my junior high and high school.

Shall we burn the Declaration of Independance and tear down the US Supreme Court building while we are at it?
Absolutely not. Why would we have to? My point is we should restore the pledge of allegiance to it's original state, without the phrase "under god". That is different reasoning than tearing down buildings and removing it from currency.

Absolutely not. Why would we have to? My point is we should restore the pledge of allegiance to it's original state, without the phrase "under god". That is different reasoning than tearing down buildings and removing it from currency.

The irony of course is that the pledge was originally written in 1892 by a socialist who also happened to be a Baptist minister.

I have two children, and I hope both of them get exposed to all forms of religion (or nonreligion), so they can make up their mids for themselves, not what someone on a pedestal somewhere says they have to. I just think that our nation would be better off with an option. that is all.
The people who came up with religions where you cannot witness another should be reprimanded. God is a form equal to what you want him/her to be. We (as citizens of the US) should be able to worship in our own way, without retaliation from anyone, religious or not.

deb

I agree that kids should be exposed to all forms of religion. I just do not believe that it is the job of the schools to do so. At least not public education. Public schools now can barely create a safe enviroment where learning can occur. Imagine what would happen if religion was brought into the equation. The exposure should be taught by the parents, and not the school.

I agree that kids should be exposed to all forms of religion. I just do not believe that it is the job of the schools to do so. At least not public education. Public schools now can barely create a safe enviroment where learning can occur. Imagine what would happen if religion was brought into the equation. The exposure should be taught by the parents, and not the school.
I am not saying that religion should be taught in school. I am saying that the option to learn about it and practice it should be.

deb

I am not saying that religion should be taught in school. I am saying that the option to learn about it and practice it should be.

deb
If that is your feeling, I agree with to an extnet. I think the option should be there in junior high and high schoool, but in grade school.

If that is your feeling, I agree with to an extnet. I think the option should be there in junior high and high schoool, but in grade school.
Grade school children rarely have the capacity to make life decisions like that. But it doesn't mean that the exceptions can't have the option. Many students, even grade school, have a feel for a religion. They should be able to express that, if they wish.

deb

Religious practices start at home. The school itself probably has no problems with prayer on campus or not. It is simply an option. When people on evboard ask you to pray- you do or dont- because it is your option to do or dont. I think it starts at home- and the decision to pray at school is made at home... I dont think it is an issue for school. =\

im not assed. i dont beleave in any religion. i just havent found any religion i wanna believe yet. i dont think i ever will. its funny i saw this thread today cus this guy came into our r.e class and started talking about jesus and he wouldnt stop talking about him and how he believed how he met jesus when he was 13 yrs old and shit and im like ye ye ye :o

I think thats terrible though. They should of let you have a debate on wether people wanted it banned. Then they would of new what people wanted and what people didnt want. Thats the way it should of been dealt with :) I dont think thats right to ban someone from praying, cause thats basically what they are doing banning you. I dont think anyone can stop you from praying. I am not religious myself but everyone have there own beliefs and i dont think its right to ban a slot in at school for praying.

I think that people should be allowed to pray in school if they want to, and
they don't try to force it down other people's throats. In fact, earlier today I
was in a socratic seminar in english class (we were doing it on the Greek play
Antigone), the subject of prayer in school, and gay rights, and the suicide
bombers came up. All of those things are groups of people who would fight to
keep a hold of the right to do what they feel is correct. Even the suicide
bombers, who many look at with anger, have to realize that these people are
just doing what they think is right, even though it goes against the laws set
down by the justice system. So even if you don't agree with some things that
people do (like me a lot of times), it was in the Constitution that all people
were meant to be treated equally.

i think prayers do not belong to school...i dont really know because i dident experiance that yet.but i guess i would feel forced to pray.and that is just not right in my opinion.i have nothing against people who believe in god and pray but i think that shouldent happen in school :)

i think prayers do not belong to school...i dont really know because i dident experiance that yet.but i guess i would feel forced to pray.and that is just not right in my opinion.i have nothing against people who believe in god and pray but i think that shouldent happen in school

Why would you feel forced to pray? o.O'' If its not really..forced, or even a rule, at all... Unless you go to a special sorta school.

You can view my opionion here (http://www.evboard.com/showthread.php?t=10541&highlight=religion).

We've already discussed this.

You can view my opionion here (http://www.evboard.com/showthread.php?t=10541&highlight=religion).

We've already discussed this.
There is a difference in threads. While the one you pointed out is about the pledge, this is about allowing prayer in school. Granted, I did bring up saying the pledge in school.

There is a difference in threads. While the one you pointed out is about the pledge, this is about allowing prayer in school. Granted, I did bring up saying the pledge in school.
And prayer was mentioned in that thread, as was my stance on this. :)

After much debate with myself, I have had a change of heart. People can have faith without prayer in school but I no longer think that it is about our prayer as much as it is about their wanting of control. If you start taking prayer out of school then what is next?

There is all this talk about prayer in school, the word God on our money and in our courts. If we start tearing away at the foundation at which our forefathers built this country, then our country is doomed for failure. If one has a problem with prayer in school or God per say then that is their problem. We should not allow them to change the world as we know it just because they don't like what they hear or see. If they use the argument that it is offensive, then I argue that the act of removal is offensive. Either way, one will be offended. If we give in to this now, then it will never stop. Next they will demand that churches be built well off the main highways because they are offensive to those who don't believe or they will want to outlaw religion as a whole. If we give them an inch they will surely take a mile.

Our country is a great country. Sure it has it's problems but to think that removing prayer in schools will change things for the better is wrong. It may please a few but it will hurt many.


tMR

What say ye to this:
What about majority rule?

America is one nation under a Constitution. Although the Constitution sets up a representative democracy, it specifically was amended with the Bill of Rights in 1791 to uphold individual and minority rights. On constitutional matters we do not have majority rule. For example, when the majority in certain localities voted to segregate blacks, this was declared illegal. The majority has no right to tyrannize the minority on matters such as race, gender, or religion.

Not only is it unAmerican for the government to promote religion, it is rude. Whenever a public official uses the office to advance religion, someone is offended. The wisest policy is one of neutrality.

Isn't removing religion from public places hostile to religion?

No one is deprived of worship in America. Tax-exempt churches and temples abound. The state has no say about private religious beliefs and practices, unless they endanger health or life. Our government represents all of the people, supported by dollars from a plurality of religious and non-religious taxpayers.

Some countries, such as the U.S.S.R., expressed hostility to religion. Others, such as Iran ("one nation under God"), have welded church and state. America wisely has taken the middle course--neither for nor against religion. Neutrality offends no one, and protects everyone.
http://ffrf.org/nontracts/?t=xian.txt

Neutrality offends no one, and protects everyone

Yep. =) Well, except for extremists who think you're either with them, or against...

Not only is it unAmerican for the government to promote religion

Right.

Anyway, like I said- why would prayer be banned? It doesnt infringe on anyone's rights. It doesnt put anyone in danger. It doesnt harm anyone. And if it is harmful, then that is why prayer is strictly a choice and option: Do or don't. I dont think a 'moment of silence' effects anyone- except those who pray and feel enlightened or something. I mean, if prayer gets banned- soon, people who like to be critical will start to say 'Crucifixes should be banned from school' and then 'Quarters shouldnt be allowed at school cuz they say: In God we Trust' (Or is that dollars...? ><)

I mean, when you ban prayer, whats next?

I mean, when you ban prayer, whats next? This kind of argument didn't work in the Gay Issues thread, and it won't work in this one.

There is a difference between "banning prayer" (which would be impossible to do) and refraining from promoting religion.

why would prayer be banned? It doesnt infringe on anyone's rights.
I mean, when you ban prayer, whats next?
By allowing prayer in school, you are infringing on the rights of those who do not wish to pray, to have moments of silence. No matter what angle or viewpoint, someon's rights are being infringed upon. Why do kids need to be praying in school anyway?

Do moments of silence effect anyone? Other than those who actually pray during it, i mean? I dont think that is really a real important issue- i think forced prayer is an important issue. BUt, luckily, no school forces kids to pray.

Why do kids need to be praying in school anyway?

Why do kids pray anywhere else, then? Or even- why not?

promoting religion.
I dunno if i understand your entire phrase all the way- but if it means what i think it does- then: Prayer isnt promoting religion.

Or maybe that wasnt what you were saying at all, then n/m.

Do moments of silence effect anyone?
Other than those who actually pray during it, i mean?
Yes I think moments of silence do effect everyone.


Why do kids pray anywhere else, then? Or even- why not?
My point is that prayer and school do not belong together. Kids should be thinking and learning during school, not praying.

thinking and learning during school

I think prayer requires deep thought (thinking) and you may learn something. Well, not from prayer itself- but at my school, there is a Christian sorta club where you're enlightened and sorta learn how to look on a bit brighter side of life and overcome this and that- and you actually learn.
But like i said, prayer itself doesnt really teach anything. And its not like a prayer will take 10 minutes of your time.

So as far as this Christian club (it isnt the real issue, but just a bit about it) goes- its a bit educational. Not EVERYTHING is based around prayer- even I can learn something just listening. But like i said, prayer alone isnt learning- but still, it doesnt really take up any time.

It may please a few but it will hurt many.


tMR

so the few million muslims in this country that dont want Christian prayer are just a few?

There is a time and place to express your religion, and public education is not one of them.

There is a time and place to express your religion, and public education is not one of them.

I dont think anyone prays out loud enough for everyone to hear... I think people pray silently in school.

And anyway, if the prayer is silent, you wouldnt know what religion they are- so it isnt really promoting any religion. (directed to those who think prayer is promoting religion in school)

By allowing prayer in school, you are infringing on the rights of those who do not wish to pray, to have moments of silence. No matter what angle or viewpoint, someon's rights are being infringed upon. Why do kids need to be praying in school anyway?

Why don't you point me to the spot where it says that I have a RIGHT not to be exposed WHATSOEVER to another student praying in their school on their own? On the other hand, would you care to point me to the spot where it says I have freedom of speech, and while we're at it, do you think I have freedom of thought?

My point is that prayer and school do not belong together. Kids should be thinking and learning during school, not praying.

Kids do a hell of a lot of other stuff in school besides think and learn. A couple of seconds for them to stop and have a moment of silence to themselves is nothing compared to the school curriculum. I can sit there and think about itchy and scratchy blowing each other to shit during that moment of silence if I want. I don't regret feeling that your panties are in a REALLY tight wad if you have to get forcefully opposed to there being a few seconds where no one is talking.

There is a time and place to express your religion, and public education is not one of them.

I completely agree. If people truly want their kids to be able to pray during school, maybe they should be at a private school and not a public school.

Why don't you point me to the spot where it says that I have a RIGHT not to be exposed WHATSOEVER to another student praying in their school on their own?
Everyone has that right, and it does not have to be written or pointed to. Not all rights have to be given or earned in the legal sense.

I don't regret feeling that your panties are in a REALLY tight wad if you have to get forcefully opposed to there being a few seconds where no one is talking.
My panties are not in a tight wad because I would have to sit in a moment of silence. I don't think it's right that kids who pray are allowed to do so during school and those who don't have to just sit there. If my panties are in a tight wad, it's simply because I am trying to get other people to understand my viewpoint, when certain people do not seem to be comprehending it.

I don't think it's right that kids who pray are allowed to do so during school and those who don't have to just sit there.

she's right. by allowing prayer in school, or even a moment of silence, you create an outcast system. All the kids will know who is praying and who isnt, and those kids could become outcasts for it. And dont say that they just have to learn to be mature about it, because they are just kids, they havent yet.

Schools are about learning facts, not religion.(and no i am not saying relgion is fiction, but you get what i mean).

All the kids will know who is praying and who isnt, and those kids could become outcasts for it.

How? Isn't everyone just sitting there being quiet for a couple of seconds? Everytime I've been in a group moment of silence there was no way whatsoever that I could tell who was doing what.

Everyone has that right, and it does not have to be written or pointed to. Not all rights have to be given or earned in the legal sense.

So are you ignoring the other part about the praying student's right to freedom of speech and thought? The way you're making it here, they're mutually exclusive. So which side is more important? My "right" to not see something I don't feel like seeing, or my right to think and speak in such a manner that would constitute quiet/silent prayer to myself?

So are you ignoring the other part about the praying student's right to freedom of speech and thought? The way you're making it here, they're mutually exclusive. So which side is more important? My "right" to not see something I don't feel like seeing, or my right to think and speak in such a manner that would constitute quiet/silent prayer to myself?

That's the point of debates. To argue the side that you believe and/or think is more important. (I personally think my right not to see something I don't want to is more important than the 1st amendment rights of the student, in this case). As far as ignoring the praying student's first amendment rights, yes I am, if they are willing to ignore that church and state are to be kept seperate.

ROXANNE, I would like to ask you a question and please be honest. Do you believe that the separation of church and state is being eroded?

ROXANNE, I would like to ask you a question and please be honest. Do you believe that the separation of church and state is being eroded?
I honestly don't know. I am currently enrolled in a private school and haven't read or seen anything about the subject. I'll just say that I haven't seen anything to suggest so.

How? Isn't everyone just sitting there being quiet for a couple of seconds? Everytime I've been in a group moment of silence there was no way whatsoever that I could tell who was doing what.



at my school, in elementary school we had a moment of silence, and the teacher would bow her head and pray silently. Now as adults thats not a big deal, but as a kid, when we see our teachers as role models, that act is very influential.


That kid will feel like he is supposed to pray just like his teacher. He is learning from his teacher how to pray. That is not seperation of church and state.

And most people when praying do some sort of gesture, whether it be bowing your head of just closing your eyes.

I personally think my right not to see something I don't want to is more important than the 1st amendment rights of the student, in this case

I do hope that such a mentality is limited to this case only... the implications of that policy across a wide range of issues would be rather catastrophic to our society.

As for the separation of church and state... the school (state) isn't teaching religion, or promoting one. During a moment of silence, they are doing just that. Giving a moment of silence. Not a moment to get out the rug and pray towards Mecca or partake in communion. And when it comes to a student praying totally independently and quietly to himself, between classes for example, then I can find absolutely no justification for an authority figure to intervene with that process. The school has no basis stopping it without voilating some VERY basic constitutional and human rights. Church and state are separate so state doesn't teach church. Not to crucify (sorry if you take that word religiously) people who may acknowledge that they have a faith system while in a public building.

so the few million muslims in this country that dont want Christian prayer are just a few?

There is a time and place to express your religion, and public education is not one of them.
Before you try and prove a point don't you think that you need to understand basic percentages. First off it isn't only the muslims that are against prayer in school. I will help you out here. Counting Muslims and those who are against prayer in school, I think that it is more than a few million who don't want prayer in school. But for the, let's say, 50 million, and that is a liberial figure, who don't want it, there are at least 3 times that that do want it.

Those who don't want it are the minority so of course the majority will be effected. That is my point.

If public school is not a place for religion than why is it that some people ar eallowed to wear certain articles of clothing because of religious belief. If you argue that religion should not be in public school then that includes all aspects. Clothing, jewelry, religious texts ... prayer. Muslims will not alter their clothing due to religious beliefs. So therefore they are allowed to have their religion in school but christians are not allowed to have theirs. I have several muslims friends and they pray several times a day regardless of where they are. Prayer isn't just for Christians.

People who don't believe in religon should get over it because there are many more that do than don't. Get used to your surroundings. It makes this world a better place. If you complained everytime you went to work you would be fired. Stop complaining about the vast differences in this world that can not be changed. Just live with it. Damn let a kid have a chance to pray. They need to remove fast food from schools, that is much worse than prayer.

tMR

People who don't believe in religon should get over it because there are many more that do than don't. Get used to your surroundings. It makes this world a better place. If you complained everytime you went to work you would be fired. Stop complaining about the vast differences in this world that can not be changed. Just live with it. Damn let a kid have a chance to pray. They need to remove fast food from schools, that is much worse than prayer.

tMR
So the minority should adjust so that the majority can have their way? Should blacks be used to the prejudice they receive from police because they are minority? Should women be used to be catcalled and whistled at because they are the minority? Should Muslims and Hindus get used to the stares and threats they receive sin 9-11? I think what would make this world a better place would be for the majority to have a little more compassion and understanding about where the minority is coming from.

Before you try and prove a point don't you think that you need to understand basic percentages. First off it isn't only the muslims that are against prayer in school. I will help you out here. Counting Muslims and those who are against prayer in school, I think that it is more than a few million who don't want prayer in school. But for the, let's say, 50 million, and that is a liberial figure, who don't want it, there are at least 3 times that that do want it.

Those who don't want it are the minority so of course the majority will be effected. That is my point.

If public school is not a place for religion than why is it that some people ar eallowed to wear certain articles of clothing because of religious belief. If you argue that religion should not be in public school then that includes all aspects. Clothing, jewelry, religious texts ... prayer. Muslims will not alter their clothing due to religious beliefs. So therefore they are allowed to have their religion in school but christians are not allowed to have theirs. I have several muslims friends and they pray several times a day regardless of where they are. Prayer isn't just for Christians.

People who don't believe in religon should get over it because there are many more that do than don't. Get used to your surroundings. It makes this world a better place. If you complained everytime you went to work you would be fired. Stop complaining about the vast differences in this world that can not be changed. Just live with it. Damn let a kid have a chance to pray. They need to remove fast food from schools, that is much worse than prayer.

tMR

My point was that while it is a minority that are against it, it is not by any means a small group. And to tell that group to shut up and put up basically is unfair and unconventional, not to mention dangerous.

There are bigots out there, and those bigots teach their kids their bigotry. Do you want to risk violence so those kids can pray?

It is admirable that someone practices their religion no matter what others think or would potentially do, but kids are not mature enough to make that decision.

So the minority should adjust so that the majority can have their way?

Somebody has to adjust. The same freedom that gives you the right to want change is the same freedom that gives me the right to keep the status quo. When in Rome does as the Romans do.

Should blacks be used to the prejudice they receive from police because they are minority? Should women be used to be catcalled and whistled at because they are the minority? Should Muslims and Hindus get used to the stares and threats they receive sin 9-11?


Don't go to the extreme with your comparisons. Prejudice and catcalling and profiling are actions that can be deemed offensive by the sheer nature of the act. Praying in school isn't even close. My preayer isn't directed at you. The above forementioned are usually directed at someone. They are completely different. By you trying to make them the same only shows that you would go to any lengths just to prove your point instead of accepting how the world is. That is the problem. Should I be made to change my way of life because some find it offensive? If so then change your way of life of wanting me to change mine. We should all respcet others for who and what they are. I am not asking the minority to change so don't ask the majority to change. If the miniorty doesn't want religion or prayer or to use condoms then so be it.

I think what would make this world a better place would be for the majority to have a little more compassion and understanding about where the minority is coming from.

And I say that the minority should have a little bit of compasion about the majority and where they 'have come from.'

tMR

Should women be used to be catcalled and whistled at because they are the minority?

When did women become a minority???

Personally I don’t feel schools should start prayer or even influence it. Because they seem to have the chance to influence there own religion on the class. This is why people want it band not because the fact that they don’t like it. But the fear there children’s beliefs will be changed by the teacher and the class as a whole. If a student decides them self that the individual wants to pray they should be allowed otherwise leave it alone in my opinion.

Personally I don’t feel schools should start prayer or even influence it. Because they seem to have the chance to influence there own religion on the class. This is why people want it band not because the fact that they don’t like it. But the fear there children’s beliefs will be changed by the teacher and the class as a whole. If a student decides them self that the individual wants to pray they should be allowed otherwise leave it alone in my opinion.

Im not sure if i interpreted the last statement you made differently: But I agree- I think a student themself can pray as they like. But classes and forcing it upon others shouldnt happen.

let me clear things up I don't think it should be forced, but give us the choice. we pray at football games for alots of reasons. it is our right in this so called free country.

let me clear things up I don't think it should be forced, but give us the choice. we pray at football games for alots of reasons. it is our right in this so called free country.

Thats because you dont FORCE prayer on anyone else. Rights were made so people wouldnt infringe on other's rights. Prayer is okay all the time- but theres people who insist to argue and say that prayer is subtly and somehow forcing and influencing others to do so. Thats the issue. Its not about 'rights', necessarily.

she's right. by allowing prayer in school, or even a moment of silence, you create an outcast system.


It's unfortunately not only happens in school, but everywhere. :(

at my school, in elementary school we had a moment of silence, and the teacher would bow her head and pray silently. Now
as adults thats not a big deal, but as a kid, when we see our teachers as role models, that act is very influential.
That kid will feel like he is supposed to pray just like his teacher. He is learning from his teacher how to pray. That is not seperation of church and
state.


I agree, and that is something I can personally relate to.

Before you try and prove a point don't you think that you need to understand basic percentages. First off it isn't only the muslims
that are against prayer in school. I will help you out here. Counting Muslims and those who are against prayer in school, I think that it is more than
a few million who don't want prayer in school. But for the, let's say, 50 million, and that is a liberial figure, who don't want it, there are at least 3
times that that do want it.
Those who don't want it are the minority so of course the majority will be effected. That is my point.
If public school is not a place for religion than why is it that some people ar eallowed to wear certain articles of clothing because of religious
belief. If you argue that religion should not be in public school then that includes all aspects. Clothing, jewelry, religious texts ... prayer. Muslims will
not alter their clothing due to religious beliefs. So therefore they are allowed to have their religion in school but christians are not allowed to have
theirs.

I'm trying to understand your post. I'm thinking it's more of the way as prayer in classes, or religion taught in school is bad. It should'nt be in the
school period, but religious clothing or actions should'nt be banned from public schools. If a person wants to pray what ever race or religion they
are, they should be allowed to. It shouldn't be to the point as, "Well let's all pray here for so and so because the majority of us in the class are
Christians..."

Some things should be banned for religious reasons and yet some should'nt be banned.

1. Teacher wants to quote a few things from the Bible for a lesson. - Should'nt be allowed
2. Teacher wants to hold a class prayer. - Should'nt be allowed
3. A student needs to pray three times a day. - Should be allowed individually
4. A student has to wear certain clothing for religious reasons. - Should be allowed

I hope you see what I'm getting at.

I'm not sure if that's what you were talking about?


People who don't believe in religon should get over it because there are many more that do than don't. Get used to your surroundings. It makes
this world a better place. If you complained everytime you went to work you would be fired. Stop complaining about the vast differences in this
world that can not be changed. Just live with it.
tMR

No, They should'nt just "live with it", especially just because the majority.
In an American case, We live in a country where there is LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

Well, you mentioned CERTAIN clothing.

If prayer shouldnt be allowed in school, because say...it influences people or already creates an outcast society, etc-- Crosses, pentagrams, bibles dont? Shirts with religious scripture? If prayer is banned for the reasons of influencing others and/or creating an outcast society- then crosses, pentagrams, bibles, and other religious things should as well be banned from school.

1. Teacher wants to quote a few things from the Bible for a lesson. - Should'nt be allowed
Care to explain why not?

Yes, why not?

THe bible isnt just a strictly religious thing. Even people who are not CHristian or religious may find interest in reading it. Its a work of literature.

Care to explain why not?


Because its unconstitutional...public education is part of the State, and that violates the seperation of church and state.

Well, you mentioned CERTAIN clothing.

If prayer shouldnt be allowed in school, because say...it influences people or already creates an outcast society, etc-- Crosses, pentagrams, bibles dont? Shirts with religious scripture? If prayer is banned for the reasons of influencing others and/or creating an outcast society- then crosses, pentagrams, bibles, and other religious things should as well be banned from school.
Yes they should be banned.

Okay. Then i see your point- if you mean to have all religious effects banned.

I thought you wanted prayer banned- but no other religious things had to be banned.


Because its unconstitutional...public education is part of the State, and that violates the seperation of church and state.

Well, the bible isnt ALWAYS religious, i dont think. I mean, it really is religious mainly- but depending on how the teacher teaches it. If the teacher isnt pressing God's word, why is it bad? I mean, the bible is a recommended book to everyone- even if you're not religious. Its just a work of literature. Some of the stores in it have really good stories with good morals and lessons from them. And not -always- about God. Sometimes, just about faith in general.

I didnt mean to go off on a story about the bible, but just pointing it out...

Okay. Then i see your point- if you mean to have all religious effects banned.

I thought you wanted prayer banned- but no other religious things had to be banned.




Well, the bible isnt ALWAYS religious, i dont think. I mean, it really is religious mainly- but depending on how the teacher teaches it. If the teacher isnt pressing God's word, why is it bad? I mean, the bible is a recommended book to everyone- even if you're not religious. Its just a work of literature. Some of the stores in it have really good stories with good morals and lessons from them. And not -always- about God. Sometimes, just about faith in general.

I didnt mean to go off on a story about the bible, but just pointing it out...

Yeah I dont see a problem if you are using it as a literary tool or as a historical tool.

For instance, we read a psalm in my senior english class, but focused on poetry techincalities, such as meter, rhyme, etc.

I dont have a problem with that.

Yes they should be banned.

But the students are not the state institution, and if the school in no way acknowledges or supports religious messages on shirts, how can that be a harm? You are basically saying that simply being in a state structure is grounds for having your religious stance remain totally ambiguous. If a student begins telling someone of their religion, should they be expelled or suspended? The clothing or jewelry is just another form of communication, representing the viewpoint of the person wearing it.

Yeah I dont see a problem if you are using it as a literary tool or as a historical tool.

For instance, we read a psalm in my senior english class, but focused on poetry techincalities, such as meter, rhyme, etc.

I dont have a problem with that. Yes, and that is what my question was referring to.

I don't see how that is unconstitutional, nor is quoting from a book just because many follow it in their faith.

Otherwise all literature with any religious connotations (such as beliefs and religion of the characters, fictitious or not) in it should be banned from public schools as well, no?

robzombielover stated that nothing should be quoted from the bible in schools, without saying anything to imply that the teacher might be teaching the bible as truth.

robzombielover stated that nothing should be quoted from the bible in schools, without saying anything to imply that the teacher might be teaching the bible as truth.

Sorry, I don't think I was specific enough.

Quoting the bible persay in a Christian school is okay, and quoting certain things. If the teacher quoted things not remotely about religion, but more of good nature teachings then it would be fine, but teaching a public school class about what Jesus did as to assume they all believe in Jesus isn't the way it should go.

I think that praying is okay in schools, but only schools which are religious, like the Catholic College, and Christian schools. Other than that, I wouldn't like someone next to me to start praying. I would tell them to stop, because I am one of those few people that would find it offensive.

I think that prayer is a very beautiful and personal thing... it's between you and God, so how on earth would the law be able to stop your thoughts? As for praying in numbers in public... that's okay too... it's not like the conductors of assemblies outside of churches tell you which God to pray to when you have a moment of prayer or silence. This is a free country, and as long as our actions do not interfere with the welfare and safety of others, I say that they shouldn't be prohibited.

I think tel-evangelists should be banned. :cool:

I think tel-evangelists should be banned. :cool:

But I LOVE Tammy Faye! :(

j/k..


;) :p :D

each to their own yet did curiosity really kill the cat?!? What im saying is if prayer is allowed the all forms of prayer should be allowed. Like say satanism, christainity, or wiccan. If one can have it then they all should

oops sorry all,

thou still, sadism. It could possibly be a good way to motivate the students.
and if not motivation, then allow the students to learn all walks of life. Take to good with the bad.

each to their own yet did curiosity really kill the cat?!? What im saying is if prayer is allowed the all forms of prayer should be allowed. Like say sadism, christainity, or wiccan. If one can have it then they all should What are you trying to say?

FYI "sadism" means:


The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others.
The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty.
Extreme cruelty.

Well, the bible isnt ALWAYS religious, i dont think. I mean, it really is religious mainly- but depending on how the teacher teaches it. If the teacher isnt pressing God's word, why is it bad? I mean, the bible is a recommended book to everyone- even if you're not religious. Its just a work of literature. Some of the stores in it have really good stories with good morals and lessons from them. And not -always- about God. Sometimes, just about faith in general.

I didnt mean to go off on a story about the bible, but just pointing it out...

Unfortunetly this topic is about prayer in school, not good literature. They are very much seperate.

If you are appreciating the bible simply for it's value as a piece of literature, then you wouldn't be opposed to giving equal reading time to the Koran or the Book of Morman etc.. a little "Praise Allah" here and there wouldn't hurt anyone, right? :D

Unfortunetly this topic is about prayer in school, not good literature. They are very much seperate.

If you are appreciating the bible simply for it's value as a piece of literature, then you wouldn't be opposed to giving equal reading time to the Koran or the Book of Morman etc.. a little "Praise Allah" here and there wouldn't hurt anyone, right? :D I think he was referring to the difference between forcing religion in schools and making random quotations from the bible.

But, as I said in previous posts, I don't see anything wrong with making quotations from the bible, or from any book of religion, I will add, whether used as a literary tool or not.

I think he was referring to the difference between forcing religion in schools and making random quotations from the bible.
Is randomly quoting the bible any different? I don't believe it is, but again it depends on the context, which was actually my point. ;)

But, as I said in previous posts, I don't see anything wrong with making quotations from the bible, or from any book of religion, I will add, whether used as a literary tool or not.The problem with that is, there are dozens of popular religions out there, and it would be impossible and incredibly time-consuming to give equal time to every one (which would be the only way to remain fair and impartial), and that is why they have decided to give no time to any religion. This gives kids a little time each day to learn crazy things like reading and math. This is also what makes a school a school and not a church.

Speaking of which, if you belong to a religion, odds are, you have a church which you attend where they will be more than happy to tell you all about your chosen religion. There is also a good chance that you have parents who share your religious views, and I'm sure they would also be glad to help you out. And if for some reason you still just have to have more, we have something called a private school, where people who all share the same views can hook up.

Now given all those solutions, there is absolutely no way that you can not have all the religious immersion that you could ever want. So why then is the Church pushing for Christianity in public schools? The same reason missionaries have been sent over the globe for centuries - just another mission.

Is randomly quoting the bible any different? I don't believe it is, but again it depends on the context, which was actually my point. ;) I believe it's different because, quoting something from the bible is not automatically teaching a religion, or forcing others to study it. But I do agree with you, it does depend on the context.

The problem with that is, there are dozens of popular religions out there, and it would be impossible and incredibly time-consuming to give equal time to every one (which would be the only way to remain fair and impartial), and that is why they have decided to give no time to any religion. This gives kids a little time each day to learn crazy things like reading and math. This is also what makes a school a school and not a church. Yes, if religion were to be incorporated into the curriculum. Which I do not agree with. But if you were to say something as you feel it applies to a situation, ie- "An eye for an eye" or these first lines from this poem "Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous, love is never boastful or conceited...", in both cases you will be quoting from the bible. I see nothing wrong with that, nor do I see anything wrong with quoting from any book of religion. Again, it does depend on what context something is being quoted in.

I also see nothing wrong with quoting biblical/religious phrases or teachings from a piece of literature (I am not talking about the bible or any other book of religion itself). I don't believe a teacher should be refrained from reading a book such as I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings because of the characters' religions or beliefs anymore than a teacher should refrain from reading The Catcher in the Rye because of what the main character does not believe.

Speaking of which, if you belong to a religion, odds are, you have a church which you attend where they will be more than happy to tell you all about your chosen religion. There is also a good chance that you have parents who share your religious views, and I'm sure they would also be glad to help you out. And if for some reason you still just have to have more, we have something called a private school, where people who all share the same views can hook up.

Now given all those solutions, there is absolutely no way that you can not have all the religious immersion that you could ever want. So why then is the Church pushing for Christianity in public schools? The same reason missionaries have been sent over the globe for centuries - just another mission. I agree.

;)

Yes, if religion were to be incorporated into the curriculum.

Um, if we're not talking curriculum here, then what are we talking about? Freedom of speech does not stop a teacher from quoting from the bible (assuming it does not inflict personal views), however it does stop them from quoting it as part of a teaching.

I see nothing wrong with that, nor do I see anything wrong with quoting from any book of religion. Again, it does depend on what context something is being quoted in.

And/or exactly what it is, that is being quoted.

however it does stop them from quoting it as part of a teaching.
And that is exactly what I was saying.

Speaking of which, if you belong to a religion, odds are, you have a church which you attend where they will be more than happy to tell you all about your chosen religion. There is also a good chance that you have parents who share your religious views, and I'm sure they would also be glad to help you out. And if for some reason you still just have to have more, we have something called a private school, where people who all share the same views can hook up.

Now given all those solutions, there is absolutely no way that you can not have all the religious immersion that you could ever want. So why then is the Church pushing for Christianity in public schools? The same reason missionaries have been sent over the globe for centuries - just another mission.

I agree, very true. Thats why I don't like people on the streets preaching.

Excuse me. But our country/nation was FOUNDED on religion. It's why God is included in our anthems, Pledge of Allegience, etc. No one has the right to remove God and Prayers from anything. And the reason it is 'God' in anthems and stuff, is because it is left freely open for other religions to place "Buddah," "Allah," "Ra" and even "Zeus" in place..since those are techinically other religions 'Gods.' If you are athiest, you are allowed not to praticipate. You are not forced to do anything. Freedom of Religion. First Amendment. GET OVER IT.


Even "Praise Be To God," written in Latin is on top of the Washington Monument. 96% of America believe in a higher being.

Even "Praise Be To God," written in Latin is on top of the Washington Monument. 96% of America believe in a higher being.
Nice statistic. A link to where you got it, please?

And anyway, do you believe that 96% of America = everyone in America? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying, and if so, your math skills are horrible.

Or maybe you just mean that the 4% you're claiming to not believe in a higher being are unimportant.

;)

Oh fun, someone who thinks that the US was founded in the 1950's.

Excuse me. But our country/nation was FOUNDED on religion.


...could have fooled those who voted to sign the treaty of tripoli (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html).

Of course, that would be the entire congress at the time along with John Adams...


It's why God is included in our anthems,


The US National Anthem first was brought up as being such in 1916 by President Woodrow Wilson, but it wasn't made that officially until 3 March 1931 by an act of congress.


Pledge of Allegience


Written in 1892 and the phrase "under G-d" was added in 1954 in order to differentiate us from those "godless communists."


etc.


The motto "In G-d We Trust" was originally petitioned for in 13 November 1861. It first appeared on the two-cent coin in 1864. It first appeared on our dollar bills a hundred years later in 1964.



If you are athiest, you are allowed not to praticipate. You are not forced to do anything. Freedom of Religion. First Amendment. GET OVER IT.


The issue of nonparticipation has been *repeatedly* clarified as being insufficient. You cite the first amendment freely but seem woefully ignorant on its interpretation.


Even "Praise Be To God," written in Latin is on top of the Washington Monument.

...which was completed in 1884 and is a monument to someone who very much believed in said deity.


96% of America believe in a higher being.

Yet 13% of the US is nonreligious (according to Adherents.com).

Excuse me. But our country/nation was FOUNDED on religion. It's why God is included in our anthems, Pledge of Allegience, etc. No one has the right to remove God and Prayers from anything. And the reason it is 'God' in anthems and stuff, is because it is left freely open for other religions to place "Buddah," "Allah," "Ra" and even "Zeus" in place..since those are techinically other religions 'Gods.' If you are athiest, you are allowed not to praticipate. You are not forced to do anything. Freedom of Religion. First Amendment. GET OVER IT.


Even "Praise Be To God," written in Latin is on top of the Washington Monument. 96% of America believe in a higher being.
Yes I agree that our nation was founded on religion, but do not be misleading. God was never in the Pledge until the 1950's. I think there is a right to remove the word God from the Pledge. I think we should restore the Pledge to the way it was prior to the 1950's when our nation was first founded "on religion".

96% of America believe in a higher being.

Taking account of America's population, the number that makes up the 4% is still large. 96% does not = everyone.

I don't think our nation (the US that is) was Founded On religion, simply founded Around religion. Our country was founded on Democracy, on freedom. And even so, religion then refers to ALL religions, not just Christianity. I don't mind if people Pray, there is pray involved in every religion on this planet, but when it involves people needing to praise a God they do not believe in, then there is a problem. If you are Hindu, how can they expect you to feel that this is one nation under God? When for the Hindu, it is not Under God, it is under whom ever they follow (and no, I am not that informed about Hinduism, but I will certianly look it up).

i think people should be able to pray in schools, but they dont have a ban at my school, it breaks our religious rights in the constitution and i think people should have a right to express their religion. If they do ban that from all schools then there will be protest so there is no reason to start an uproar.

I don't think they should ban prayer but like..at our school on Sept. 11, over the intercom the principal started talking about it and stuff and then he said to take a moment of silence and pray for all the people that died and pray all the soldiers were safe...and it was kind of odd..because everyone started praying because the teacher was

I think a good lot of the "praying is going to be banned" stuff comes from the religious themselves. They need something to get stirred up about, to get mad about. Here in good ol bible thumping Texas, the political ads are full of "this canidate voted against a national day of prayer".

While I may believe in God, a friend may not, and that is fine with me and I wouldn't force my beliefs on them. Growing up in Good old bible thumping Texas I have had to deal with the peer pressure to pray in school, and it shouldn't be that way. I'm not saying someone can't pray, if they want to, why let someone stop them?!? But they shouldn't step all over everyone and pressure anyone else. Prayer is a private thing, and I think people go too far with it and make it a public experience. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to pray, but they don't have the right to abuse what it's there for, either.

I think that religion should be banned, only if the school requires it, and they don't allow different religions to practice in their own way. If students want to pray in school on their own, then that is perfectly fine, as long as they don't try to force people to pray.

What do you mean religion should be banned? That is not possible, I pray to my Goddess when there is need, and I don't need everyone to know I'm doing it, because you do it within your own soul. I don't care if people pray in school as long as it's not forced upon them to pray for a deity they don't believe in, or in a format that does not suit their religion.

I think that religion should be banned, only if the school requires it, and they don't allow different religions to practice in their own way. If students want to pray in school on their own, then that is perfectly fine, as long as they don't try to force people to pray. What were you trying to say?

What were you trying to say?

At my school, there is a christian club, and I'm fine with it, because it does not require that you join, you do so because you want to. It's when schools tell you that you have to pray that I have a problem with it.

At my school, there is a christian club, and I'm fine with it, because it does not require that you join, you do so because you want to. It's when schools tell you that you have to pray that I have a problem with it.

The debate is if *voluntary* prayer should be banned. I don't think anyone's tried to make a case for mandatory prayer. The closest it's come is a mandatory moment of silence which can be used for prayer/meditation/thinking about the tits of the girl beside them if the student wishes.

The closest it's come is a mandatory moment of silence which can be used for... ...thinking about the tits of the girl beside them if the student wishes.

You did that too?

:)

I think if you want to pray you should.
No one should be able to tell you whether you can practice religion or not
WHAT THE HELL HAPPEND TO FREEDOM OF RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think if you want to pray you should.
No one should be able to tell you whether you can practice religion or not
WHAT THE HELL HAPPEND TO FREEDOM OF RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OMG! OMG! WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO DEBATE FORUM RULES 3 AND 4 (http://www.evboard.com/showthread.php?t=3750)?!?!?!!!!!!!

I think if you want to pray you should.
No one should be able to tell you whether you can practice religion or not
WHAT THE HELL HAPPEND TO FREEDOM OF RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Society disregards it, but that's a different matter comepletely.

Personally, I think it's fine for people to pray in public just so long as you don't make anybody else do it. I'm not religious, I don't have a faith. In my old school we used to have assemblies twice a week from y7-y11. They used to make us sing hymns and say the lords prayer. I used to sing the hymns because the teachers would shout at us if they saw we weren't singing, but I wouldn't be thinking about what I was singing at all. And when it was the time for the prayer, I wouldn't actually say it. I'd shut my eyes and all, but be thinking about what I was doing later in the day or whatever.

I'm all for freedom of religion so long as people don't belittle other people's religions, like Christians tend to do a lot, or so I've noticed.

I have no problem whatsover with religious education being taught in schools, because in my school we didn't learn the bible or whatever, we learned about other religions and social issues, and the Holocaust. If you had a good enough reason you wouldn't be forced to go to those lessons. You'd have a free then, but I went because I thought it was important that you know at least a little about other religions so that you can respect their wishes and not try to offend anybody with your beliefs.

I hve religious friends but they don't force their religion onto me, and I don't harp on about how I don't have a religion, because we'd offend one another. Prayer is a private thing. It shouldn't be banned. But equally, people shouldn't make me (and others like me) pray when we don't want to.

amy

I have two children, and I hope both of them get exposed to all forms of religion (or nonreligion), so they can make up their minds for themselves, not what someone on a pedestal somewhere says they have to. I just think that our nation would be better off with an option. that is all.

I completely agree with you. Though I don't think school is exactly the place for "religion", I think it's best that religions are represented equally so that many forms are exposed and none are left secluded. Of course, there will always be problems surrounding this because of the contraversy that comes along with the word "religion". A students personal faith and belief system should be left up to that student. None should be forced to participate in something that may offend them, but that shouldn't hold back the others who wish to participate.

As good an idea as that is- when students and teens get passionate about a religion- i think they tend to press it on others. It happens sometime, im sure.

I think that if you want to pray in public that you should be able too.....if you don't believe in praying, then don't pray. They can't fully keep religion and state apart, they'd have to recall all currency because on all coins and bills it says "In God We Trust."

Now that I think of it... i mean, if prayer is completely taken out- what about the pledge of allegiance? I know thats stricty a state thing- however, it includes "One nation under God". The same people who are for taking prayer out of school should be the same people who are against the pledge, the way i see it.

I'm fine with the Pledge, I just wish they'd take it back to its orginal state, without the "under god" in it.

The law you speak of does not include personal prayer, it just refers to prayer which a person of authority (Principal, Governement Official) is saying so that all MUST hear it, eg over the P.A., or to a crowd of townspeople. The law just takes into account the fact that some people in mass groups do not share the same religion as the majority, and should not have to be forced to listen to it. The law doesn't say that you can't go down on your knees in the park and pray, it just meeans you can't use your position of power to force it on people. I live in Canada and we've had that law for years. It works, it's very considerate. Nobody gets hurt.

i think people should realize that i dont' think people should say it and i don't think people should not say it.

i don't beleive it should be done over intercoms.. if they want to do it in groups or by themselves fine.

but doing over the intercoms or something or as a class.. kind of forces people to do something they may or may not believe in. so yah, if they want to do it by themselves, fine.. but don't force everyone

i think people should realize that i dont' think people should say it and i don't think people should not say it.

i don't beleive it should be done over intercoms.. if they want to do it in groups or by themselves fine.

but doing over the intercoms or something or as a class.. kind of forces people to do something they may or may not believe in. so yah, if they want to do it by themselves, fine.. but don't force everyone

can i get an amen? :p

can i get an amen? :p
Can I get a "What??"

i don't think they should ban prayer anywhere. like in schools maybe an idea would be to not focus on the prayer of one religion but maybe if they were to pray in school just give a moment of silence to let the students pray to themselves no matter their religion. everyone should have a right to practice the religion they choose and banning it in schools or anywhere else is taking away our rights.

I think the ban is stupid. I'm not a big person on praying a lot but people should be able to pratice their religious belief openly. Do they think it will offend people or something? There's always something that's going to offend someone. Get over it.

School (unless it's a religious, PRIVATE school) is not the place for prayer (unless it's to yourself or smething. Not a school wide prayer like over the announcements).

can i get an amen? :p


well.. i mean seriously. you can't ban prayer from schools. if people want to pray together, then damn it.. PRAY.

you just can't expect people that don't want to pray to have to sit through it, because that's basically putting a ban on their beliefs too.

pray in your seat, in the lunch line, during a test, handing in homework, hitting a boy, tripping a girl, peeing.. whatever..

no one can stop you.

prayer is not banned from public places one can still pray to themselves no one is going to stop htem but it just says that a public officail cannot lead in prayer basically it says that prayer cannot be punlic due to the fact of separation of church and state which i agree with because america is a free country

prayer is not banned from public places one can still pray to themselves no one is going to stop htem but it just says that a public officail cannot lead in prayer basically it says that prayer cannot be punlic due to the fact of separation of church and state which i agree with because america is a free country
Did they stop teaching kids how to use punctuation in public schools too?

Did they stop teaching kids how to use punctuation in public schools too?

ToB, that is the most biased post I have ever seen in my life. Suggesting that punctuation and prayer are in the same category is the kind of attitude that causes people to complain about things like this in the first place.

well.. i mean seriously. you can't ban prayer from schools. if people want to pray together, then damn it.. PRAY.

you just can't expect people that don't want to pray to have to sit through it, because that's basically putting a ban on their beliefs too.

pray in your seat, in the lunch line, during a test, handing in homework, hitting a boy, tripping a girl, peeing.. whatever..

no one can stop you.

Exactly. Prayer is a silent act, you don't even have to do it with people. I don't know what this debate is about. If it is about involving a group of people in prayer, who didn't wish to be in this group (The announcement issue), then that is wrong. But altogether, you cannot stop prayer.

ToB, that is the most biased post I have ever seen in my life. Suggesting that punctuation and prayer are in the same category is the kind of attitude that causes people to complain about things like this in the first place.
I hope you're joking. I really do.

I hope you're joking. I really do.

I dont joke. At least not when Im in a bad mood. Why in the hell should children be taught prayer as if its somthing fundamental?

I dont joke. At least not when Im in a bad mood. Why in the hell should children be taught prayer as if its somthing fundamental?
Chill, Blitz.

ToB's post about punctuation was a sideswipe at whispereminence for not using any... That's why he quoted her. He wasn't comparing prayer and punctuation.

And when he asked if you were joking, I suspect it's cos he couldn't quite believe you hadn't spotted that.

Maybe your bad mood has affected your reason temporarily? My bad moods do that all the time. :)

Chill, Blitz.

ToB's post about punctuation was a sideswipe at whispereminence for not using any... That's why he quoted her. He wasn't comparing prayer and punctuation.

And when he asked if you were joking, I suspect it's cos he couldn't quite believe you hadn't spotted that.

Maybe your bad mood has affected your reason temporarily? My bad moods do that all the time. :)

I sheepishly withdraw from this thread so I can slink away and hide in a box. Umm, sorry ToB.

Amendment I.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievance."

It's really open for interpretation. Don't make any laws respecting an establishment of religion and don't prohibit the free excercise thereof.

Of course, when I was in first grade we said the pledge of allegence every day. At six years old I was skipping "under God" every single time. I complained once or twice to my parents about it, but they told me I was too young. Grr.. to young to what?... think for myself?

My opinion: allow prayer, be completely neutral to it, don't support it, don't prohibit it. If people want to establish "religious groups" (d