CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE "GREAT CALIPHATE".
by Larry Abraham, January 29, 2004

The war against terror did not begin on September 11, 2001, nor will it end with the peaceful transition to civilian authority in Iraq, whenever that may be. In fact, Iraq is but a footnote in the bigger context of this encounter, but an important one none the less. This war is what the Jihadists themselves are calling the "Third Great Jihad." They are operating within the framework of a time line which reaches back to the very creation of Islam in the seventh century and are presently attempting to recreate the dynamics which gave rise to the religion in the first two hundred years of its existence.

No religion in history grew as fast, in its infancy, and the reasons for the initial growth of Islam are not hard to explain when you understand what the world was like at the time of Muhammad's death in 632 AD. Remember that the Western Roman Empire was in ruins and the Eastern Empire, based in Constantinople, was trying desperately to keep the power of its early grandeur while transitioning to Christianity as a de facto state religion.
The costs to the average person were large as he was being required to meet the constantly rising taxes levied by the state along with the tithes coerced by the Church.

What Islam offered was the "carrot or the sword". If you became a convert, your taxes were immediately eliminated, as was your tithe. If you didn't, you faced death. The choice was not hard for most to make, unless you were a very devoted martyr in the making. At the beginning, even the theology was not too hard for most to swallow, considering that both Jewry and Christianity were given their due by the Prophet. There is but one God-Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet, as was Jesus, and the pre-Christian Jewish prophets of the Torah (Old Testament). Both were called "children of the book"--the book being the Koran, which replaced both the Old and New Testaments for former Christians and Jews. With this practical approach to spreading the "word" Islam grew like wild-fire, reaching out from the Saudi Arabian Peninsula in all directions. This early growth is what the Muslims call the "First" great Jihad and it met with little resistance until Charles Martel of France, the father of Charlemagne, stopped them in the battle of Tours in France, after they had firmly established Islam on the Iberian Peninsula. This first onslaught against the West continued in various forms and at various times until Islam was finally driven out of Spain in 1492 at the battle of Granada.

The "Second great "jihad" came with the Ottoman Turks. This empire succeeded in bringing about the downfall of Constantinople as a Christian stronghold and an end to Roman hegemony in all of its forms. The Ottoman Empire was Islam's most successful expansion of territory even though the religion itself had fractured into warring sects and bitter rivalries with each claiming the ultimate truths in "the ways of the Prophet". By 1683 the Ottomans had suffered a series of defeats on both land and sea and the final, unsuccessful attempt to capture Vienna set the stage for the collapse of any further territorial ambitions and Islam shrunk into various sheikhdoms, emir dominated principalities, and roving tribes of nomads.
However, by this time a growing anti-western sentiment, blaming its internal failures on anyone but themselves, was taking hold and setting the stage for a new revival known as Wahhabism, a sect which came into full bloom under the House of Saud on the Arabian Peninsula shortly before the onset of WWI.
It is this Wahhabi version of Islam which has infected the religion itself, now finding adherents in almost all branches and sects, especially the Shiites.

Wahhabiism calls for the complete and total rejection or destruction of anything and everything which is not based in the original teachings of The Prophet and finds its most glaring practice in the policies of the Afghani Taliban or the Shiite practices of the late Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran. Its Ali Pasha (Field Marshall) is now known as Osama bin Laden, the leader of the "Third Jihad", who is Wahhabi as were his 9/11 attack teams, 18 of which were also Saudi. The strategy for this "holy war" did not begin with the planning of the destruction of the World Trade Center. It began with the toppling of the Shah of Iran back in the late 1970's. With his plans and programs to "westernize" his country, along with his close ties to the U.S.
and subdued acceptance of the State of Israel, the Shah was the soft target.
Remember "America Held Hostage"? Thanks, in large part to the hypocritical and disastrous policies of the Jimmy Carter State Department, the revolution

was set into motion, the Shah was deposed, his armed forces scattered or murdered and stage one was complete. The Third Jihad now had a base of operations and the oil wealth to support its grand design or what they call the "Great Caliphate".

What this design calls for is the replacement of all secular leadership in any country with Muslim majorities. This would include, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, all the Emirates, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia and finally what they call the "occupied territory" Israel.

As a part of this strategy, forces of the jihad will infiltrate governments and the military as a prelude to taking control, once the secular leadership is ousted or assassinated. Such was the case in Lebanon leading to the Syrian occupation and in Egypt with the murder of Anwar Sadat, along with the multiple attempts on the lives of Hussein in Jordan, Mubarak of Egypt and Musharraf in Pakistan. Pakistan is a particular prize because of its nuclear weapons. (Please note al Qaeda call for the Islamic-militant overthrow of Musharraf in Pakistan on March 25, just yesterday.) The long-range strategy of the Third Jihad counts on three strategic goals.
First, the U.S. withdrawing from the region just as it did in Southeast Asia, following Vietnam. Second, taking control of the oil wealth in the Muslim countries, which would be upwards to 75% of known reserves; third, using nuclear weapons or other WMDs to annihilate Israel. A further outcome of successfully achieving these objectives would be to place the United Nations as the sole arbiter in East/West negotiations and paralyze western resistance, leading to total withdrawal from all Islamic dominated countries Evidence of the Bush Administration awareness of this plan is found in the events immediately following the 9/11 attack. The administration's first move was to shore up Pakistan and Egypt, believing that these two would be the next targets for al Qaeda, while Americans focused on the disaster in New York. The administration also knew that the most important objective was to send a loud and clear message that the U.S. was in the region to stay, not only to shore up our allies but to send a message to the Jihadists. The attack on Afghanistan was necessary to break-up a secure al Qaeda base of operations and put their leadership on the run or in prison. The war in Iraq also met a very strategic necessity in that no one knew how much collaboration existed between Saddam Hussein and the master planners of the Third Jihad or Hussein's willingness to hand off WMDs to terrorist groups including the PLO in Israel. What was known were serious indications of on-going collaboration as Saddam funneled money to families of suicide bombers attacking the Israelis and others in Kuwait. What the U.S. needed to establish was a significant base of operations smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, in a location which effectively cut it in half. Iraq was the ideal target for this and a host of other strategic reasons.

Leadership of various anti-American groups both here and abroad understood the vital nature of the Bush initiative and thus launched their demonstrations, world-wide, to "Stop The War". Failing this, they also laid plans to build a political campaign inside the country, with the War in Iraq as a plebiscite, using a little known politician as the thrust point--Howard Dean. This helps to explain how quickly the Radical Left moved into the Dean campaign with both people and money, creating what the clueless media called the "Dean Phenomenon". By building on the left-wing base in the Democrat party and the "Hate Bush" crowd, the campaign has already resulted in a consensus among the aspirants, minus Joe Lieberman, to withdraw the U.S.
from Iraq and turn the operation over to the U.N. And, if past is prologue, i.e., Vietnam, once the U.S. leaves it will not go back under any circumstances, possibly even the destruction of Israel.

Should George W. Bush be defeated in November we could expect to see the dominoes start to fall in the secular Islamic countries and The Clash of Civilizations, predicted several years ago by Samuel Huntington, would then become a life changing event in all of our lives. What surprised the Jihadists following the 9/11 attack was how American sentiment mobilized around the president and a profound sense of patriotism spread across the country. They were not expecting this reaction, based on what had happened in the past, nor were they expecting the determined resolve of the President himself. I also believe this is one of the reasons we have not had any further attacks within our borders. They are content to wait, just as one of their tactical mentors; V.I. Lenin admonished..."two steps forward, one step back".

A couple additional events serve as valuable footnotes to the current circumstances we face: the destruction of the human assets factor of the CIA during the Carter presidency, presided over by the late Senator Frank Church. This fact has plagued our intelligence agencies right up to this very day with consequences which are now obvious. And, Jimmy Carter himself, the one man who must bear the bulk of the responsibility for setting the stage of the Third Jihad. Americans should find little comfort in how the Democrat contenders constantly seek the "advice and counsel" of this despicable little hypocrite.

Lastly, we should not expect to see any meaningful cooperation from Western Europe, especially the French. Since failing to protect their own interests in Algeria (by turning the country over to the first of the Arab terrorists, Ammad Ben Bella), the country itself is now occupied by Islamic immigrants totaling twenty percent of the population.

We are in the battle of our lives, a battle which will go on for many years possibly even generations. If we fail to understand what we are facing or falter in the challenge of "knowing our enemy" the results will be catastrophic. Imagine a world where al Qaeda regimes control 75% of the world's oil, have at their disposal nuclear weapons, legions of willing suicide soldiers, and our national survival is dependent on the good graces of Kofi Annan and the United Nations. Please, heaven help us.

There is one final footnote which may be the scariest of all. Either none of the Democrats currently leading the drive to their party's nomination are aware of the facts of the Great Caliphate and Third Jihad or they do know and they don't care so long as their power lust is satisfied. But, I can guarantee you one thing for sure: some of their most ardent supporters are aware of this and will do anything they can to bring it about.

**************End of Report************************

Note....this was written before John Kerry had the nomination sewn up...but recent events clearly demonstrate that Kerry is going to fulfill Abraham's prediction of the Democrats calling for the UN and the French/Germans/Spain coalition to force the US out of Iraq. Also understand that the current 9/11 hearings are a political 'show' and Clarke's book were timed for these hearings and the campaign. And this is why Condoleezza Rice is seeking a private meeting with this commission to 'tell it like it is'. The national security issues involved around 9/11 cannot be an open book to the public, and I believe we have to understand that.

This is scary stuff. President Bush and the Republicans are obviously extremely cautious in bringing this issue to the campaign because the left-leaning media and the Kerry Democratic left would call this 'racist'
against Islam and a distraction for the alleged lies of WMD and our reasons for going into Iraq. Bush correctly referred to the 'axis of evil' (Iran, Libya, Iraq and North Korea) as a pointed strategy to blunt the WMD-terrorist movement and he has been very successful in thwarting al Qaeda, despite what everyone on the left says. We are far better off without the threat from Iraq and Libya all within the last 12 months. We are threatened in Pakistan and if Musharraf is assassinated (it's been tried several times in the past year), we can see how the militants will gain control of Pakistan's nuclear weapons, which have already spread to Iran (by a militant Islamic scientist) and if Musharraf is 'taken out' we have both Iran and Pakistan as militant Islamic power bases armed with nuclear weapons. And let's not overlook Abraham's issue about the potential for militant Islamic states who would control 75% of the world's oil.

This probably why Dick Cheney, Rice, Powell, and Wolfowitz are so committed to the belief that we are in this struggle for the free world as we have known it and focused on defeating the militant Islamic-al Maida's global strategy. They skirt the core issues raised by Abraham in this article because of the political-correctness implications, but after reading this, you understand what is at stake here. Kerry and the liberal Democrats want control of Washington at any price. Abraham clearly spells out what price that is: Victory for al Qaeda and the Islamic militancy.

Abraham's article brought all of these issues together and why it is important for us to gain this perspective and educate our friends and associates.

This is a deeply impressive, cogent, and intelligent overview of the militant Islamic movement. Pass on Abraham's article to those who have a need to know, which is just about everybody.

I already read this on the 'Beheaded American in Iraq' thread... great article, great thruths!

No further comments... everything is already written.

Thanks ToB!

I already read this on the 'Beheaded American in Iraq' thread... great article, great thruths!

No further comments... everything is already written.

Thanks ToB!

Yeah, me too. Thanks again! :D

Most.imformative.sticky.evar.

i think we shouldn't think about all the muslims as jihad followers, they're not.
about the occupied territory (israel), we should all look back and see that israeli people were offered a territory with agreement of all parts, but then they abused of their power and conquered part of Palestina, so they are really occuping some territories.
and i agree with this article in its sense, telling that religion is a massive destruction weapon, we must end with all this extremist non sense.

thanx ToB. if ninjas ruled the world maybe this would be a better place.

thanx ToB. if ninjas ruled the world maybe this would be a better place.

Good Lord!!!

...a Ninja stalker! :confused:

Enough said.

GD20 Characters ( >< )
tMR

On May 1, 2004, Larry Abraham posted a "Part II" to the essay originally posted by ToB.

Source: http://www.insiderreport.net/clash_1-2.html
PART II (May 1, 2004) Since writing the above, we have witnessed some frightening evidence in support of our hypothesis both internally and in other parts of the world.

The al Qaeda bombing in Madrid has emboldened our enemy into believing it can use terror as an instrument for democratic regime change. Based on what happened there, they may be right.

Kerry and bin Laden on the same page

John Kerry and other leaders of his party constantly refer to the United States as “acting unilaterally.” They give no credit whatsoever to countries like Great Britain, Poland, Italy, Australia or even tiny Honduras for putting their limited armed forces in harm’s way to support the U.S. led coalition in Iraq. It is little wonder that some are considering doing what Spain has done—pulling out. The leaders in these countries have spent considerable political capital in this effort, and have little to show for it as it relates to fostering good will with the American public. Couple that fact with Osama bin Ladin’s latest offer of withholding attacks on those who “quit” the coalition and you have all the elements for a Democrat party fostered “self-fulfilling prophecy” where the U.S. will be totally alone in the pacification of Iraq. John Kerry and the Bush critics persist in the “lie” of the U.S. going it “alone” in Iraq but Osama bin Laden knows differently and will use the Kerry rhetoric to help isolate the U.S. The terrorists now see themselves as political “king-makers”. They may be right.

Another aspect of the “anti-Bush” political axis is how both his political enemies and the main stream media take ghoulish delight in “the body count,” just as they did in the later days of Vietnam. Oh sure, they pay incidental homage to the memory of the young Americans who gave their lives in the greatest threat this country has ever faced, but they do so with all the sincerity of Madonna making a vow of chastity. As the body bags grow in number, they believe, so grows their political prospects. They may be right.

If the Bush administration is further weakened in the months leading up to the November elections, we will witness a heightened al Qaeda offensive in all parts of the world, including our own country, and especially in Iraq and nations surrounding it ,i.e., Pakistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Events within the past few days in Jordan not only make this argument but also point to the possibility of “what happened to the WMDs.”
Iran and Syria are daily growing more overt and bold in their support of insurgents within Iraq, believing that Bush has been so hurt by internal politics that he is powerless to act against them in any meaningful way. They may be right.

The Leftwing initiative, Political Correctness and Our Will to Win

Within our own country we are witnessing and almost insane application of “political correctness.” As the barbarism of radical Islam grows more apparent in the streets of the Middle East from Gaza to Basra, we see a cultural suicide taking place within our own schools and communities.

Our children are being taught from the Koran, our professors are preaching intifadah in their class rooms, and Muslim “call to prayer” loud speakers are blaring out from city halls. The more precarious our very existence becomes, the more our liberal brethren embrace their enemies. It is a Stockholm Syndrome which can only lead to the recruitment of young Muslims who will be willing to duplicate in the West what their co-religionists are doing in the streets of Israel and the market places of Baghdad. The liberal P.C. crowd say nothing about the silence of the Muslim religious leadership as it relates to the carnage of innocents but couldn’t speak out fast enough against the inspiration supplied to tens of millions of Christians by Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ. They were put off by the movie’s “violence” and its alleged “fostering of anti-Semitism”. Movies must represent their “reality” as the real thing moves them not at all. Among liberal Jews in America, hatred of George W. Bush is only surpassed by their contempt for Ariel Sharon…Let them explain it, I am at a total loss to do so. Maybe they just miss seeing Bill Clinton smooching Yassir Arafat in the White House Rose Garden.

The “Reverend” Jesse Jackson is now calling the U.S. “guilty of crimes against humanity” as he sets out to mobilize the non-Islamic Left. None of the Democrat leadership says a word in opposition to Jackson’s treason or Hillary’s attacks on the President and U.S. policy in an Arabic newspaper, while in London. You can bet that al Jezeera didn’t miss a beat in their reporting of both events.

The campaign takes its toll

The campaign is seriously hurting Mr. Bush’s leadership role in the War on Terror. While ducking every new book critical of his initiative or trying to counter the partisan nitpicking of the 9/11 Commission, he has persisted in the misbegotten insistence of “installing democracy” in Iraq. Our purpose for being in that beleaguered country should be restricted to one purpose and one purpose only, to stop the expansion of The Third Jihad and provide a base for doing same in the neighboring areas. This can be done by sealing the borders, attacking anything that moves in violation of same and by making it clear to Syria and Iran that any participation on their part will be considered an “act of war”. Let the country be governed by the local tribes, Shiite in the south, Sunni in the central and Kurds in the north with a U.S. pro consul overseeing the military. Oil revenues could be spilt by population allocation. How about installing a Republic…it worked pretty well here with diverse populations.

The very idea that we should spend our sons and daughters blood or our tax dollars on trying to building a “democracy” in the region which has neither a history nor a desire for such, is sheer nonsense. The very essence of Islamic teaching speaks directly against this principle. Continuing on the current path can only result in fostering greater hatred for the “Great Satan”. Force is the only thing which is respected in that part of the world and this force need not be tied to “reform”. I suggest Mr. Rumsfled acquaint himself with a copy of Julius Caesar’s Gallic Wars and Sun Tsu’s Art of War. All the tactics and strategies necessary to subdue the Iraqi insurgents can be found in those two military gems.

Please not the UN

Bringing the U.N. to the party will only compound the problem without adding any accountability. The U.N. has been accused of many things over the years, but being a “democratic” institution has never been one of them. Just the latest scandal of the “Oil for Food” program should provide any thinking person with all the evidence they need to keep the U.N. at bay. But this doesn’t seem to bother the likes of the John Kerry’s of the world who prattle on as if the scam doesn’t even exist.

Just one example will make my case; the UN mandate in Israel, which has been in place since 1948. One more salient point needs to be made on this subject. There is no such thing as “The International Community.” There are only individual countries, each with its own agenda which is always self serving. The myth of a higher level of “moral authority” coming out of the UN as been one of the greater lies of the past half century, but it is a lie which persists in spite of a bloody record of hypocrisy, graft, genocide and “perpetual war for perpetual peace.” I have a suggestion for the 9/11 Commission:.Why don’t they look into what the UN was doing before the attack on the World Trade Center? If they do, they will find that exactly one week before, the UN was holding a Conference on Racism in Durbin, South Africa where the delegates voted overwhelmingly to condemn Israel, as “racist and terrorist.” The U.S., Canadian and Israeli delegates walked out in disgust. Nary a word was uttered about Saddam Hussein, al Qaeda, or the Taliban, to say nothing of what was happening in Rwanda while they crunched caviar on toast and washed it down with vintage Champaign. Genocide does not qualify as “racism” according to the UN “morality.” Neither we nor the world needs the UN to muck up what is already a very delicate situation. If given proper leadership every Middle Eastern country named above will throw in with the Coalition, for if they don’t they will be the next targets of the Third Great Jihad and the Great Caliphate. Pakistan is already showing the leadership which others will follow. What do you think moved Kadahaffi to cozy up to the U.S. and Great Britain? He fears the Jihadist more than he hates us.

Evil Does Exist

Our current crises, in meeting the threat of the Third Jihad, is one more example of how most Americans simply refuse to believe there is evil in this world and are willing to grant moral equivalence on any human action. Unless the crime is personalized such as in the case of Lacy Peterson, we lose interest quickly and become bored or at least not involved.

To try and understand what we are facing, look into the eyes of your son or grandson and try to fathom a mind which would take pride in strapping a bomb to his body and sending him out to kill himself and countless innocent people. Or in the case of your daughter or grand daughter, try to imagine a religion which commands you to mutilate her vagina to destroy her sex drive or demands you to stone her to death if she has sexual relations with a man other than of your choosing.

If you can comprehend these facts both intellectually and emotionally, then you will start to understand what we are facing in the months and years ahead, both at home and abroad.

The radicals of Islam will stop at nothing to destroy us and all we stand for. They see this war as their “entry to paradise” and a release from the miserable existence they have built for themselves within the confines of an evil and perverse religion. The Jihadist are NOT like us, nor most of their fellow Muslims. But, like terrorists everywhere they have silenced any criticisms from fellow Muslims through threat and intimidation and have, with the help of the ‘useful idiots” in the West, “created the appearance of popular support”.

If we are incapable of understanding these realities and acting accordingly, within the life time of everyone who reads these words, we will see our cherished way of like cease to exist and chaos become our lot. The Clash of Civilizations is now reaching out and touching all of us. May God grant us the wisdom and the courage to meet the challenge.

I respectfully dedicate the above to the memory of Pat Tillman and his 872 comrades who by their courage and willing sacrifice set an example for every American. May we be worthy of their “greatest love…”

Thanks for posting that Dhamma.

The liberal P.C. crowd say nothing about the silence of the Muslim religious leadership as it relates to the carnage of innocents but couldn’t speak out fast enough against the inspiration supplied to tens of millions of Christians by Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ. They were put off by the movie’s “violence” and its alleged “fostering of anti-Semitism

Haha, so true...

i really feel sorry for islamic people now days... they are getting such neg reps from idiots like Bin laden and other morons

Thanks for posting the articles.. very good reading!

that's a good article... but it's sad what people can do... man... :(
Thanks ToB for that!

I particularly liked the whole comment of Evil Exists. Many people think what happens on the other side of the world doesn't affect them, while the other side of the world is fighting toward their side. Ignorance won't remove a problem... but the media has been trained to portray that message.

edit: Almost forgot: Thanks ToB.

I particularly liked the whole comment of Evil Exists. Many people think what happens on the other side of the world doesn't affect them, while the other side of the world is fighting toward their side. Ignorance won't remove a problem... but the media has been trained to portray that message.

edit: Almost forgot: Thanks ToB.

I agree (*fills 20 character limit*)

What a load of facist claptrap!

It's clear that a new Islamic Jihad is a clear and present threat - but let's look at this logically and reasonably people.

We can not make an argument for the inherent evil in their actions - and then proceed to behave in questionable, unlawful and immoral actions ourselves as a nation.

This article calls Jimmy Carter a "little hypocrite" - nothing could be further from the truth. It would have been easy for Carter to call for the invasion of Iran - but far harder for him to stand on principle and find other means to return the American hostages. If it meant that he would be personally embarrised and lose the Presidency, he was willing to make that sacrifice and has stated exactly that in the years since.

He refused to become what we hate.

If Carter was so wrong to support the Shah, our ally, how exactly were Presidents Reagan and Bush Sr correct in their long term support and training of the Mujahadden (Which included Osama bin Lauden) during the Afghan/Russian War?

In response to the Russian invasion Carter chose not to send our delegation to the Moscow Olympics in protest, in contrast Reagan trained, supplied and supported one of the most dangerous terrorist organizations of the modern day.

Maybe we would have been better off in the long run supporting the Russians against Afghanistan - then we wouldn't have had to attack them ourselves 20 years later, would we? If Afghanistan were part of the Russian block once the iron curtain fell - it would be a whole different ballgame now.

But of course, wild speculation like this with less than 20/20 hindsight is often useless.

There is no doubt that we must fight Al Qaeda, that we must be resolute in our action, but we must also be righteous, we must have just cause, stand for the rule of law and for the uniform application of human rights - or else all our effort will be naught.

If we can not succeed in building broad coalitions as President Bush Sr did during the first Iraq War - and President Clinton did to help end ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, if we can not make the righteousness of our case known - then we should not proceed.

If we proceed without this - we will fail.

If GW Bush's plan was to turn Iraq into a permanent bulwark against the plans and entrenchment of Osama Bin Lauden and al Qaeda, then he should have been upfront with the American People and the World with that goal. He was not. His claims of terrorist involvement by Sadam Hussein have proven dubious. His claims of WMD's have proven laughable.

Running away is not what we should do now. We are now in Iraq - we may need to stay for some time - but if we do, we should certainly understand why, in clear and obvious terms and we should only proceed with clear and verifiable evidence - not on the basis half-baked theories.

Vyan

Thanks for Posting, Was a very interesting read. Being From the UK I wasn't aware of this report so was very interested in what it had to say.

By and Large I felt it bought up some important points about Muslim Extremists and their efforts to attack their percieved Enemies and destablise the current situation In Iraq. To me however it dosn't really try to make a distiction between Normal Muslims and these Extremists, If I knew little about thsi conflict and was reading this Artile for the 1st Time I could easily Jump to the Conclusion that ALL Muslims Hated the US. This is Clearly Wrong.

Also At time the Articles Feels a little to close to Pro-Bush Propaganda, The implication that Kerry Will Pull all US Troops out of Iraq and hand everything over to the UN feels like a bit of a jump to a conclusion to me (I am aware of Kerry's Mandate, I just feel a large conclusion has been Drawn).

In fact there appears to be several assumptions which are drawn in the Articles which don't appear to have any clear backup or justification (I am not saying I disagree with it, just that If any assumptions are made some justification for the assumptions needs to be provided otherwise its a baseless arguement).

Lastly, I would like to remind you that the UK has been the US biggest supporter during the 'war on terror', yes we haven't commited as much resource as you simply because we don't have as much Military resource as the US. To this end we also have biggest casulties (59 Britons, Next closest Italy 17) of any of the other coalition countries. I am Not trying to detract from US casualties, which far outweighs ours (787 I believe), Just trying to highlight Our frustation as a country when we somtimes seem to be less then a Footnote during the War (This was part of the second Article).

I fully believe that we have to have a clear resolve during this period in history and see each course of action through to its end with the same resolve, just that we should be blinked in the process.

Again Tob Thanks for posting

CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE "GREAT CALIPHATE".
by Larry Abraham, January 29, 2004

The war against terror did not begin on September 11, 2001, nor will it end with the peaceful transition to civilian authority in Iraq, whenever that may be. In fact, Iraq is but a footnote in the bigger context of this encounter, but an important one none the less. This war is what the Jihadists themselves are calling the "Third Great Jihad." They are operating within the framework of a time line which reaches back to the very creation of Islam in the seventh century and are presently attempting to recreate the dynamics which gave rise to the religion in the first two hundred years of its existence.

No religion in history grew as fast, in its infancy, and the reasons for the initial growth of Islam are not hard to explain when you understand what the world was like at the time of Muhammad's death in 632 AD. Remember that the Western Roman Empire was in ruins and the Eastern Empire, based in Constantinople, was trying desperately to keep the power of its early grandeur while transitioning to Christianity as a de facto state religion.
The costs to the average person were large as he was being required to meet the constantly rising taxes levied by the state along with the tithes coerced by the Church.

What Islam offered was the "carrot or the sword". If you became a convert, your taxes were immediately eliminated, as was your tithe. If you didn't, you faced death. The choice was not hard for most to make, unless you were a very devoted martyr in the making. At the beginning, even the theology was not too hard for most to swallow, considering that both Jewry and Christianity were given their due by the Prophet. There is but one God-Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet, as was Jesus, and the pre-Christian Jewish prophets of the Torah (Old Testament). Both were called "children of the book"--the book being the Koran, which replaced both the Old and New Testaments for former Christians and Jews. With this practical approach to spreading the "word" Islam grew like wild-fire, reaching out from the Saudi Arabian Peninsula in all directions. This early growth is what the Muslims call the "First" great Jihad and it met with little resistance until Charles Martel of France, the father of Charlemagne, stopped them in the battle of Tours in France, after they had firmly established Islam on the Iberian Peninsula. This first onslaught against the West continued in various forms and at various times until Islam was finally driven out of Spain in 1492 at the battle of Granada.

The "Second great "jihad" came with the Ottoman Turks. This empire succeeded in bringing about the downfall of Constantinople as a Christian stronghold and an end to Roman hegemony in all of its forms. The Ottoman Empire was Islam's most successful expansion of territory even though the religion itself had fractured into warring sects and bitter rivalries with each claiming the ultimate truths in "the ways of the Prophet". By 1683 the Ottomans had suffered a series of defeats on both land and sea and the final, unsuccessful attempt to capture Vienna set the stage for the collapse of any further territorial ambitions and Islam shrunk into various sheikhdoms, emir dominated principalities, and roving tribes of nomads.
However, by this time a growing anti-western sentiment, blaming its internal failures on anyone but themselves, was taking hold and setting the stage for a new revival known as Wahhabism, a sect which came into full bloom under the House of Saud on the Arabian Peninsula shortly before the onset of WWI.
It is this Wahhabi version of Islam which has infected the religion itself, now finding adherents in almost all branches and sects, especially the Shiites.

Wahhabiism calls for the complete and total rejection or destruction of anything and everything which is not based in the original teachings of The Prophet and finds its most glaring practice in the policies of the Afghani Taliban or the Shiite practices of the late Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran. Its Ali Pasha (Field Marshall) is now known as Osama bin Laden, the leader of the "Third Jihad", who is Wahhabi as were his 9/11 attack teams, 18 of which were also Saudi. The strategy for this "holy war" did not begin with the planning of the destruction of the World Trade Center. It began with the toppling of the Shah of Iran back in the late 1970's. With his plans and programs to "westernize" his country, along with his close ties to the U.S.
and subdued acceptance of the State of Israel, the Shah was the soft target.
Remember "America Held Hostage"? Thanks, in large part to the hypocritical and disastrous policies of the Jimmy Carter State Department, the revolution

was set into motion, the Shah was deposed, his armed forces scattered or murdered and stage one was complete. The Third Jihad now had a base of operations and the oil wealth to support its grand design or what they call the "Great Caliphate".

What this design calls for is the replacement of all secular leadership in any country with Muslim majorities. This would include, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, all the Emirates, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia and finally what they call the "occupied territory" Israel.

As a part of this strategy, forces of the jihad will infiltrate governments and the military as a prelude to taking control, once the secular leadership is ousted or assassinated. Such was the case in Lebanon leading to the Syrian occupation and in Egypt with the murder of Anwar Sadat, along with the multiple attempts on the lives of Hussein in Jordan, Mubarak of Egypt and Musharraf in Pakistan. Pakistan is a particular prize because of its nuclear weapons. (Please note al Qaeda call for the Islamic-militant overthrow of Musharraf in Pakistan on March 25, just yesterday.) The long-range strategy of the Third Jihad counts on three strategic goals.
First, the U.S. withdrawing from the region just as it did in Southeast Asia, following Vietnam. Second, taking control of the oil wealth in the Muslim countries, which would be upwards to 75% of known reserves; third, using nuclear weapons or other WMDs to annihilate Israel. A further outcome of successfully achieving these objectives would be to place the United Nations as the sole arbiter in East/West negotiations and paralyze western resistance, leading to total withdrawal from all Islamic dominated countries Evidence of the Bush Administration awareness of this plan is found in the events immediately following the 9/11 attack. The administration's first move was to shore up Pakistan and Egypt, believing that these two would be the next targets for al Qaeda, while Americans focused on the disaster in New York. The administration also knew that the most important objective was to send a loud and clear message that the U.S. was in the region to stay, not only to shore up our allies but to send a message to the Jihadists. The attack on Afghanistan was necessary to break-up a secure al Qaeda base of operations and put their leadership on the run or in prison. The war in Iraq also met a very strategic necessity in that no one knew how much collaboration existed between Saddam Hussein and the master planners of the Third Jihad or Hussein's willingness to hand off WMDs to terrorist groups including the PLO in Israel. What was known were serious indications of on-going collaboration as Saddam funneled money to families of suicide bombers attacking the Israelis and others in Kuwait. What the U.S. needed to establish was a significant base of operations smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, in a location which effectively cut it in half. Iraq was the ideal target for this and a host of other strategic reasons.

Leadership of various anti-American groups both here and abroad understood the vital nature of the Bush initiative and thus launched their demonstrations, world-wide, to "Stop The War". Failing this, they also laid plans to build a political campaign inside the country, with the War in Iraq as a plebiscite, using a little known politician as the thrust point--Howard Dean. This helps to explain how quickly the Radical Left moved into the Dean campaign with both people and money, creating what the clueless media called the "Dean Phenomenon". By building on the left-wing base in the Democrat party and the "Hate Bush" crowd, the campaign has already resulted in a consensus among the aspirants, minus Joe Lieberman, to withdraw the U.S.
from Iraq and turn the operation over to the U.N. And, if past is prologue, i.e., Vietnam, once the U.S. leaves it will not go back under any circumstances, possibly even the destruction of Israel.

Should George W. Bush be defeated in November we could expect to see the dominoes start to fall in the secular Islamic countries and The Clash of Civilizations, predicted several years ago by Samuel Huntington, would then become a life changing event in all of our lives. What surprised the Jihadists following the 9/11 attack was how American sentiment mobilized around the president and a profound sense of patriotism spread across the country. They were not expecting this reaction, based on what had happened in the past, nor were they expecting the determined resolve of the President himself. I also believe this is one of the reasons we have not had any further attacks within our borders. They are content to wait, just as one of their tactical mentors; V.I. Lenin admonished..."two steps forward, one step back".

A couple additional events serve as valuable footnotes to the current circumstances we face: the destruction of the human assets factor of the CIA during the Carter presidency, presided over by the late Senator Frank Church. This fact has plagued our intelligence agencies right up to this very day with consequences which are now obvious. And, Jimmy Carter himself, the one man who must bear the bulk of the responsibility for setting the stage of the Third Jihad. Americans should find little comfort in how the Democrat contenders constantly seek the "advice and counsel" of this despicable little hypocrite.

Lastly, we should not expect to see any meaningful cooperation from Western Europe, especially the French. Since failing to protect their own interests in Algeria (by turning the country over to the first of the Arab terrorists, Ammad Ben Bella), the country itself is now occupied by Islamic immigrants totaling twenty percent of the population.

We are in the battle of our lives, a battle which will go on for many years possibly even generations. If we fail to understand what we are facing or falter in the challenge of "knowing our enemy" the results will be catastrophic. Imagine a world where al Qaeda regimes control 75% of the world's oil, have at their disposal nuclear weapons, legions of willing suicide soldiers, and our national survival is dependent on the good graces of Kofi Annan and the United Nations. Please, heaven help us.

There is one final footnote which may be the scariest of all. Either none of the Democrats currently leading the drive to their party's nomination are aware of the facts of the Great Caliphate and Third Jihad or they do know and they don't care so long as their power lust is satisfied. But, I can guarantee you one thing for sure: some of their most ardent supporters are aware of this and will do anything they can to bring it about.

**************End of Report************************

Note....this was written before John Kerry had the nomination sewn up...but recent events clearly demonstrate that Kerry is going to fulfill Abraham's prediction of the Democrats calling for the UN and the French/Germans/Spain coalition to force the US out of Iraq. Also understand that the current 9/11 hearings are a political 'show' and Clarke's book were timed for these hearings and the campaign. And this is why Condoleezza Rice is seeking a private meeting with this commission to 'tell it like it is'. The national security issues involved around 9/11 cannot be an open book to the public, and I believe we have to understand that.

This is scary stuff. President Bush and the Republicans are obviously extremely cautious in bringing this issue to the campaign because the left-leaning media and the Kerry Democratic left would call this 'racist'
against Islam and a distraction for the alleged lies of WMD and our reasons for going into Iraq. Bush correctly referred to the 'axis of evil' (Iran, Libya, Iraq and North Korea) as a pointed strategy to blunt the WMD-terrorist movement and he has been very successful in thwarting al Qaeda, despite what everyone on the left says. We are far better off without the threat from Iraq and Libya all within the last 12 months. We are threatened in Pakistan and if Musharraf is assassinated (it's been tried several times in the past year), we can see how the militants will gain control of Pakistan's nuclear weapons, which have already spread to Iran (by a militant Islamic scientist) and if Musharraf is 'taken out' we have both Iran and Pakistan as militant Islamic power bases armed with nuclear weapons. And let's not overlook Abraham's issue about the potential for militant Islamic states who would control 75% of the world's oil.

This probably why Dick Cheney, Rice, Powell, and Wolfowitz are so committed to the belief that we are in this struggle for the free world as we have known it and focused on defeating the militant Islamic-al Maida's global strategy. They skirt the core issues raised by Abraham in this article because of the political-correctness implications, but after reading this, you understand what is at stake here. Kerry and the liberal Democrats want control of Washington at any price. Abraham clearly spells out what price that is: Victory for al Qaeda and the Islamic militancy.

Abraham's article brought all of these issues together and why it is important for us to gain this perspective and educate our friends and associates.

This is a deeply impressive, cogent, and intelligent overview of the militant Islamic movement. Pass on Abraham's article to those who have a need to know, which is just about everybody.
thanks for posting.i totally agree.we must wake up and open our eyes.as a
christian,i wish people would realize that in many ways this is a religious war.
believe me,i know what i talking about.the bible points to all thats going on
today.have you read the koran?i have.read it and you will see where these
people are coming from.also,i have a degree in theolgy.but don't take that
as bragging,cause i don't mean to come across that way.
also,i hope i haven't offended any of you.as a mother and grandma,i'm praying for a safe world.love,cheryl

Pacer said -"insert what pacer said here"-

Paradise says- Can you please just write a paragraph without hitting enter after every sentance. :cool:

Pacer said -"insert what pacer said here"-

Paradise says- Can you please just write a paragraph without hitting enter after every sentance. :cool:
sorry,thats just the way i type.i just got this computer in january.but i will try to remember.i dont't know how i got by in college writing papers and all.come to think of it,i used a manual typewriter.i guess at 49 i'm just over the hill.please bear with me.i will try to do better.pacer

Pacer, you don't have to reply with quotes everytime you make a post, you know. If you go to the top or the bottom of the thread, there's a "Post Reply" button. Unless you actually want to quote someone, I'd use this button rather than the one at the botom right of a post.

As far as this being a religious war is concerned, that's a load of utter drivel. Total nonsense. A war has been declared on Terrorism... (How the fuck that's meant to work I don't know... you can't point a gun at an 'ism') but it's got nothing whatsoever to do with religion. We're just trying to live in a world without fear.

As to how we're going about that, well... *points at Vyan's post* - There's fucking wisdom for you. Read and absorb... this dude makes sense.

you believe whatever ya want.its fine by me.but what i believe is shared by many of my fellow americans.pacer

Head- I agree w/ you on most of that...but..religion is a part of this war. Were fighting radiacal Islamists, who justify the killing of others through there religion. You need look no further than Nick Berg getting beheaded. As they were doing it , they were chanting "god is great."

I dont think this is a "Islaam vs Christianity" thing , dont get me wrong. But there religious fanaticism is what drives them to do what they do. imo.













[edit]Sorry bout the double post, I meant to edit , and accidently quoted myself.

I dont think this is a "Islaam vs Christianity" thing , dont get me wrong. But there religious fanaticism is what drives them to do what they do. imo.
See, that makes some sense. But we aren't approaching it from a religious POV, that's for sure... And I'm pretty sure that what the terrorist activists believe is nothing more than a perversion of a religion.





p.s. - Double posting and quoting yourself, Mike? You n00b... :p

See, that makes some sense. But we aren't approaching it from a religious POV, that's for sure...
Totally agree.

pretty sure that what the terrorist activists believe is nothing more than a perversion of a religion.
Again. totally agree.









p.s. - Double posting and quoting yourself, Mike? You n00b... :p
I feel like a huge wank. :p

ah..i see.. thanks for posting them. very informative!

hey, I read that article: you know, I'm a muslim residing in Pakistan, and the one thing that bugs me that because of all this extremism nonsense, muslims may be tainted for life, but all of us are not like that, see, I know I have a future, I'm working hard, im going to get my bachelors in business soon then I'm moving to L.A. to get my masters, and it just feels really shitty that after how far I've come, everyone seems to hate muslims, I certainly don't deserve it.
The only solution I can come up with is changing my religioun legally and my name, but that can wait, let's just hope this fades away.
I think we should all join hands and rid of all this terrorism, I just hate it.

hey, I read that article: you know, I'm a muslim residing in Pakistan, and the one thing that bugs me that because of all this extremism nonsense, muslims may be tainted for life, but all of us are not like that, see, I know I have a future, I'm working hard, im going to get my bachelors in business soon then I'm moving to L.A. to get my masters, and it just feels really shitty that after how far I've come, everyone seems to hate muslims, I certainly don't deserve it.
The only solution I can come up with is changing my religioun legally and my name, but that can wait, let's just hope this fades away.
I think we should all join hands and rid of all this terrorism, I just hate it.

It will fade away much more if Bush won't win the next elections I think, I personally don't have anything against muslims or other races, and I hate when I see ppl comments in other forums saying something like "let's just drop a H bomb there and kill them all" << this refering to the Iraq situation, they can't blame all the ppl for something that others do.

It will fade away much more if Bush won't win the next elections I think, I personally don't have anything against muslims or other races, and I hate when I see ppl comments in other forums saying something like "let's just drop a H bomb there and kill them all" << this refering to the Iraq situation, they can't blame all the ppl for something that others do.

Everything is bush's fault isnt it? :rolleyes: No dipshit , why dont you put the blame on the fucking terrorists, where it belongs.




Mustafa:The major majority of America , i would guess 95% of us, know that these extremists who twist your peaceful religion are the enemies. not the average Muslims.
Good luck on getting your bachelors, and I hope you do make it over to America. :)

Everything is bush's fault isnt it? :rolleyes: No dipshit , why dont you put the blame on the fucking terrorists, where it belongs.

I know the terrorists are the cause of all that, but was it really necessary to start a new war in Iraq? I think not..

I know the terrorists are the cause of all that, but was it really necessary to start a new war in Iraq? I think not..

Im not going to debate why we are in Iraq w/ you, Its been debated to death. You dont think we should of gone there, fine, its your right to think that.
But dont blame the pres for shit that's not his fault.

Im not going to debate why we are in Iraq w/ you, Its been debated to death. You dont think we should of gone there, fine, its your right to think that.
But dont blame the pres for shit that's not his fault.

I already know that they "you" went there for ppls freedom :rolleyes: and to build a base in there, but there's no reason to attack other country just cause someone wants to biuld a base on there.

I already know that they "you" went there for ppls freedom :rolleyes: and to build a base in there, but there's no reason to attack other country just cause someone wants to biuld a base on there.

bingo jackass. :rolleyes:

Nothing personal, but do you know that ppl that start calling names to other ppl are ppl that just don't have arguments to support themselves?

Everything is bush's fault isnt it? No dipshit , why dont you put the blame on the fucking terrorists, where it belongs.

the only thing i blame bush for is for thinking that a war would be the best answer to the 9/11 attacks... that has been the worst decision ever made... there are people dying out there everyday (we see in the newspapers,on the news...) and you do have a point there, the real blame should go to the terrorists, but let´s put it this way, if we go around killing inocent people aren´t we sinking to their same level, the difference between a normal person and a terrorist is that a normal person has feelings and a concience that keeps reminding us that we did something wrong. why does killing innocent people instead of killing the people that are really guilty seems right to the terrorists, because it draws the attention of the media and the rest of the world, they want us to be afraid, well we are... and what can we spect from a president that fights violence with violence, well, you tell me...

besides all that, great article and very real too...not all that media crap that wants us to believe that war is the best answer for terrorism...

peace...
alexa...

...really shitty isn't it?
btw, thanx for everyone who doesn't think 'all muslims' are terrorists, appreciate your words. :)

.if we go around killing inocent people aren´t we sinking to their same level, ...

You think America is just going around killing innocent people?






I'm sorry you feel that way.

You think America is just going around killing innocent people?






I'm sorry you feel that way.

Many innocents(including woman and children) were killed during the Afghanistan and Iraq bombing.

Many innocents(including woman and children) were killed during the Afghanistan and Iraq bombing.

And you think America did that purposely?

SHUT THE FUCK UP. We're all on the same side here.

We all know that America (for all it's other faults) isn't into genocide! There are no examples of it anywhere in history...

America wants to keep peace by it's own terms, yes... and sometimes it's own terms might not agree with yours... but generally, America has acted as a benevolent force in the world. There are plenty others we couldn't say the same...

But let's not forget that America has also been a rash actor (Iraq #1) - perhaps even a bully... (Grenada) - and even Reckless with regards to international opinion (Iraq II)...

But they've always done what appeared to be right. And I thank them for that.

Even if, sometimes, they've been downright hamfisted and fucking stupid. Because SO HAVE WE ALL. (Britain V Argentina re Falklands... Britain V Spain re Gibraltar... it goes on and on and on...)

You think America is just going around killing innocent people?






I'm sorry you feel that way.

well what do you think they´re doing with war?? liberating the iraqui people??? think again...

peace...

well what do you think they´re doing with war?? liberating the iraqui people??? think again...

peace...


RIGHT ON - America wants to just secure their spot as the Power Country of the world. America is in the middle east to make sure that they do not unite together and Iraq is the center of the middle east. Ofcourse Americas intentions for the war of IRAQ are not to kill innocent civilians but bombs dont know the difference and the so claimed "terrorists" are in the middle of civilians. Im not pro people dying we are losing men over there, and we are losing iraqis.

BTW Why is it in Palestine sucide bombers are called terrorists? Ive never understood that. I mean America supplies Israel with weapons to fight the palestinians but palestine has nothing. There military is Hamas and Al Quida they are fighting a war. Israel kill 100s of palestinians a day with official bombs and guns, and then a palestian girl who has had her house demolished been raped or whatever, and family killed fights back with a bomb attached to herself. I mean a person must be really hopeless to do that, but its war. Nobody understands that as long as America gives support to Israel they will have a strong military while Palestine has nothing but Hamas which is titled a terrorist organization. HOW CAN THE PALESTINIANS FIGHT FOR THEIR LAND WITHOUT NO WEAPONS OR NO SUPPORT????????

RIGHT ON - America wants to just secure their spot as the Power Country of the world. America is in the middle east to make sure that they do not unite together and Iraq is the center of the middle east. Ofcourse Americas intentions for the war of IRAQ are not to kill innocent civilians but bombs dont know the difference and the so claimed "terrorists" are in the middle of civilians. Im not pro people dying we are losing men over there, and we are losing iraqis.

BTW Why is it in Palestine sucide bombers are called terrorists? Ive never understood that. I mean America supplies Israel with weapons to fight the palestinians but palestine has nothing. There military is Hamas and Al Quida they are fighting a war. Israel kill 100s of palestinians a day with official bombs and guns, and then a palestian girl who has had her house demolished been raped or whatever, and family killed fights back with a bomb attached to herself. I mean a person must be really hopeless to do that, but its war. Nobody understands that as long as America gives support to Israel they will have a strong military while Palestine has nothing but Hamas which is titled a terrorist organization. HOW CAN THE PALESTINIANS FIGHT FOR THEIR LAND WITHOUT NO WEAPONS OR NO SUPPORT????????

Right on, couldn't agree more with you, that's my point about the whole war and the Israel/palestine conflict, very well said.

Edit: the only thing I don't agree is about Al-qaida, they're lame terrorists..

BTW Why is it in Palestine sucide bombers are called terrorists? Ive never understood that. I mean America supplies Israel with weapons to fight the palestinians but palestine has nothing. There military is Hamas and Al Quida they are fighting a war.So you believe that the rest of the middle east - which would destroy everyone and everything in Israel if they had half the chance - doesn't help supply the Palestinians with cash and supplies?

It isn't nearly simplistic as you portray it.

Also keep in mind this - Americans are in basically in the same boat as Israelis. There are factions in the middle east that would like to kill and destroy every single American (and spare me the "Bush caused that!" argument - it is much, much, much deeper than that).


And rock22chic... since you are convinced that the higher ups are ignorant and you seem to know the answers, please explain how you would resolve the decades-long problem of extremists who want to do nothing more than kill. You seem quick to jump the accidental killing of innocent people but what about the killing of 3000+ innocent Americans in one day? What would be your answer to the terrorists for that? Apologize to them for "making them mad?" That liberal "We are getting what we deserve" crap is just that - crap.

I once was idealistic about the world as well, figuring that love and peace would solve everything. But then I grew to realize something - my view of the world doesn't work for those who do not share it. Terrorists, like a school-yard bully, seem to understand only thing: brutal might. It might not stop them entirely but it will make their leaders think twice when those leaders know that America will hunt you down and take you out, just as you ordered your underlings to do to innocent Americans.

The Revolutionary War battle flag that pictured a snake and read "Don't Tread On Me" should be the mantra of America in today's world. It's not fair and it's unfortunate but it is the only thing that those who live by the sword understand - that they will die by that same sword. Forget about the suicide terrorists; they are but misguided foot soldiers. The ones who must get the message are the leaders of these groups. Since 9/11 the Bin Ladens of this world have had to consistently look over their shoulders in fear, while some bleeding hearts would have us shake his hand and ask him what we did wrong to make him upset with us. Face it - evil sometimes exists to simply exist and do evil.

So you believe that the rest of the middle east - which would destroy everyone and everything in Israel if they had half the chance - doesn't help supply the Palestinians with cash and supplies?

It isn't nearly simplistic as you portray it.

Also keep in mind this - Americans are in basically in the same boat as Israelis. There are factions in the middle east that would like to kill and destroy every single American (and spare me the "Bush caused that!" argument - it is much, much, much deeper than that).


And rock22chic... since you are convinced that the higher ups are ignorant and you seem to know the answers, please explain how you would resolve the decades-long problem of extremists who want to do nothing more than kill. You seem quick to jump the accidental killing of innocent people but what about the killing of 3000+ innocent Americans in one day? What would be your answer to the terrorists for that? Apologize to them for "making them mad?" That liberal "We are getting what we deserve" crap is just that - crap.

Being a Muslim American, born and raised in California, been to my homeland Egypt many times in the summer. I know for a fact that the reason most arabs have a problem with america is due to the fact that they aid israel, and forcefully control many arab countries IE Egypt. Plus just FYI Other middle eastern countries are not allowed to fund and aid Palestine. America does not allow their supposed Allies like Egypt to aid Palestine. America controls alot of the middle east and makes sure many arab countries do not support or aid palestine.

Being a Muslim American, born and raised in California, been to homeland Egypt many times in the summer. I know for a fact that the reason most arabs have a problem with america is due to the fact that they aid israel. Plus just FYI Other middle eastern countries are not allowed to fund and aid Palestine. America does not allow their supposed Allies like Egypt to aid Palestine. America controls alot of the middle east and makes sure many arab countries do not support or aid palestine.You need to go back and read the essay/article that started this thread; it is far more complicated than that. And as far as the aid is concerned, I was speaking of covert aid and not legal aid. If you believe that America is able to stop that covert aid you probably believe that the U.S. can stop illegal drugs from entering our country as well.

Being a Muslim American, born and raised in California, been to my homeland Egypt many times in the summer.
If you were born and raised in California, how the fuck is Egypt your homeland? :rolleyes:

Drop the emotive language and just make your point.

If you were born and raised in California, how the fuck is Egypt your homeland? :rolleyes:

Drop the emotive language and just make your point.

Easy my ancestors, alot of my family are from there. So ya I look Egyptian. Im sorry that Im not one of those like people who say they are from california when they look Asian or Russian. My pt was I hear both sides thats why i commented on my upbringing.

And rock22chic... since you are convinced that the higher ups are ignorant and you seem to know the answers

i´m sorry that you miss interpretaded my post by thinking that i seem to have all the answers, cause i don´t.

please explain how you would resolve the decades-long problem of extremists who want to do nothing more than kill.

again i can´t explain it, i don´t know why those people seem to think that killing is the best way to solve things, but they do, they´re sick people that just think about them and the way that they can win...


You seem quick to jump the accidental killing of innocent people but what about the killing of 3000+ innocent Americans in one day? What would be your answer to the terrorists for that? Apologize to them for "making them mad?" That liberal "We are getting what we deserve" crap is just that - crap.

where in my post did you read that i said that the americans got what they deserved??? don´t put words in my mouth, i just said that bush made a lot of wrong decisions. they are mad, that´s right but in no way can be justified what they did, i know that a lot of people died in the 9/11 attacks, i knew someone who died there, i know what it´s like to lose someone, but that doesn´t mean that they can invade a country and start to kill people accidentally as they all say...

I once was idealistic about the world as well, figuring that love and peace would solve everything. But then I grew to realize something - my view of the world doesn't work for those who do not share it. Terrorists, like a school-yard bully, seem to understand only thing: brutal might. It might not stop them entirely but it will make their leaders think twice when those leaders know that America will hunt you down and take you out, just as you ordered your underlings to do to innocent Americans.

you see i almost agree with you there, they all seem to think that violence is the best answer... but look at it this way, america gets revenge because of what happened at the 9/11 attacks, but what about all the innocent people that died and are diying now in iraq, what do they get an "i´m sorry"... it´s all about power now, who has the most power, and all the resources and support... and please don´t for one second think that i´m the type of person that is so naive to think that those kind of people would ever get to understand what they´re doing,they´re sick and we all know it... i´m not a freaking hippie, i´m realistic about what´s happening too but in no way i think that the best answer is violence... trust me i want them to catch bin laden too and punish him, because he really deserves it...

peace...

you see i almost agree with you there, they all seem to think that violence is the best answer... but look at it this way, america gets revenge because of what happened at the 9/11 attacks, but what about all the innocent people that died and are diying now in iraq, what do they get an "i´m sorry"...
When do we get an "I'm sorry" from Arab nations for 9/11 or any other terrorists' acts towards Americans?

Face it: we may get a few passive notions from an Arab leader or two that it isn't right, but they will never wholly condemn it.

Terrorists are planning a very big attack in the U.S. this summer. Here is the article on the big terror threat. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040525/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/terror_threat_3) If the terrorists carry this out (with WMD), we just might have 4 more years of President Bush.

We need to be on the RED terror level. Now. (not Orange... RED!)

Terrorists are planning a very big attack in the U.S. this summer. Here is the article on the big terror threat. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040525/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/terror_threat_3) If the terrorists carry this out (with WMD), we just might have 4 more years of President Bush.

We need to be on the RED terror level. Now. (not Orange... RED!)Now I used to agree with that statement but I now think that a big terrorist attack would actually destroy the Bush sentiment that we are safer under his leadership.

If US government stopped supporting Israel invade and take over Palestine, I bet the terrorist attacks would be reduced to minimum.

If US government stopped supporting Israel invade and take over Palestine, I bet the terrorist attacks would be reduced to minimum.
And we nuked the entire Middle East they would as well but neither would be the right thing to do. And if we do what you suggest then we would essentially be giving in to terrorism by basically admitting defeat.

.. i think a Lake Iraq would be an excellent place to Vacation.. (im just kidding)
I guess that goes along with my kiddin around that we really have Osma binladen that Bush is just waiting for a week before election to say Hey Look who i found!
Red Alert.. makes my work life a living hell, since i am govt i have to go through check points... but to be quite honest where i work, there are so many different ethnic backrounds, we house scientist, sometime you cant help but think what if.. there are so many people just on Visa's where we work...It really is a scary thing but what can you really do. just sit around and wait for an attack.
I agree with what that article says i think that IF there ever is an attack that it will be from somewhere with in. People who are residents that have been here for awhile.
I have Faith in Bush, though alot of people dont... I think that he learned from sept 11, and i think that he will do whatever it takes to insure that something of the magnitude wont happen again. and IF something does happen that he will have done everything in his power to have tried to stop it.

The sobering thought is simply this: no matter who is in the White House, regardless of party, the next terrorist attack on our soil is not so much a matter of if but when.

i am govt

best. quote. ever.

This is short and to the point. :D

best. quote. ever.

This is short and to the point. :D
lol thanks Miles you just gave me my... NEW CUSTOM TITLE ive been searching for! :D

Heres the pics of the people the gov. is lookin for.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/126549/11_2_052604_suspects3.jpg

.. i think a Lake Iraq would be an excellent place to Vacation.. (im just kidding)
I guess that goes along with my kiddin around that we really have Osma binladen that Bush is just waiting for a week before election to say Hey Look who i found!
Red Alert.. makes my work life a living hell, since i am govt i have to go through check points... but to be quite honest where i work, there are so many different ethnic backrounds, we house scientist, sometime you cant help but think what if.. there are so many people just on Visa's where we work...It really is a scary thing but what can you really do. just sit around and wait for an attack.
I agree with what that article says i think that IF there ever is an attack that it will be from somewhere with in. People who are residents that have been here for awhile.
I have Faith in Bush, though alot of people dont... I think that he learned from sept 11, and i think that he will do whatever it takes to insure that something of the magnitude wont happen again. and IF something does happen that he will have done everything in his power to have tried to stop it.

I completely agree with you. If there is an attack it will be from within. Although September 11th happened, I think Bush will try to do everything in his power to stop any future attacks. Let's just hope it works.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040526/i/r2405376933.jpg
Following up with what Dude said... this is what i just came across too

And we nuked the entire Middle East they would as well but neither would be the right thing to do. And if we do what you suggest then we would essentially be giving in to terrorism by basically admitting defeat.

If your goverment nuked the entire middle east you could only expect a huge nuclear attack in US by other countries that would be against the slughter and others that are against US nowdays...

And I just wanna ask you all what do you think about the whole Israel/Palestine conflict which US is the main supporter?

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040526/i/r2405376933.jpg
Following up with what Dude said... this is what i just came across too

Thanks dude and kaydee for putting these mugshots up. :cool: I will be sure to keep my eye out for those possible evildoers. :mad:

If your goverment nuked the entire middle east you could only expect a huge nuclear attack in US by other countries that would be against the slughter and others that are against US nowdays...

And I just wanna ask you all what do you think about the whole Israel/Palestine conflict which US is the main supporter?

Please bone up on your reading skills and re-read what I said again:
Originally Posted by Lowercountry
And we nuked the entire Middle East they would as well but neither would be the right thing to do. And if we do what you suggest then we would essentially be giving in to terrorism by basically admitting defeat.

Notice that I said NEITHER WOULD BE THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

As to your second question: I disagree with some of Israel's responses to terrorism but it is just that - a reaction to terrorism. I am beginning to think, and please correct me if I am wrong, that you believe that the Palestinian terroristic acts are some how justified. Personally I think that Israel would agree to co-exist without the constant threat of terrorism.

Please bone up on your reading skills and re-read what I said again:
[/color][/i]

Notice that I said NEITHER WOULD BE THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

As to your second question: I disagree with some of Israel's responses to terrorism but it is just that - a reaction to terrorism. I am beginning to think, and please correct me if I am wrong, that you believe that the Palestinian terroristic acts are some how justified. Personally I think that Israel would agree to co-exist without the constant threat of terrorism.

Bullshit Palestine has made attempts to live with Israel in the past but they keep wanting more land. Plus the land is Palestine its been occupied and lived in for years by Palestians. What Israel is doing with Americas money is terrorism on a bigger scale to the Palestians. I mean they massacre people down there bull dozers go into innocent peoples houses, random people are shot and killed. Both sides are committing horrible horrendous acts of terrorism but the difference is Palestinians dont have the same weapons support as Israel because America supports Israel 100%. Plus alot of Jews control major aspects of the media so it begins to influence. I mean every show has a jewish person these days think about it honestly. Plus the most well known director in the US is Steven Speilberg most actos are. It begins to influence and makes Arabs/Palestanians look bad. If America was to stop aiding Israel than America would not be looked at as an enemy.

Please bone up on your reading skills and re-read what I said again:
[/color][/i]

Notice that I said NEITHER WOULD BE THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

As to your second question: I disagree with some of Israel's responses to terrorism but it is just that - a reaction to terrorism. I am beginning to think, and please correct me if I am wrong, that you believe that the Palestinian terroristic acts are some how justified. Personally I think that Israel would agree to co-exist without the constant threat of terrorism.

I understood what you said about "neither would be the right thing to do" and I agree but I still wanted to say what would happen if they(US) done that.
And yes, you're right, I believe that Palestinian attacks are justified cause they almost have no weapons at least powerfull enough to fight againts Israel and many ppl in the same situation would do the same cause they're being invaded by Israel. Although I believe that the attacks are justified I don't think is the right thing to do cause they kill themselves and many ppl that doesn't have anything to do with the war, but again Israel do the same, killing many ppl that have nothing to do with the conflict. Just my opinion.

And yes, you're right, I believe that Palestinian attacks are justified cause they almost have no weapons at least powerfull enough to fight againts Israel and many ppl in the same situation would do the same cause they're being invaded by Israel. Although I believe that the attacks are justified I don't think is the right thing to do cause they kill themselves and many ppl that doesn't have anything to do with the war, but again Israel do the same, killing many ppl that have nothing to do with the conflict. Just my opinion.

If you believe that blowing up bus loads of innocent women and children is justified in any way at all that tells me all I need to know about your opinion. I stand by my statement that Israel is largely responding to acts of violence. It's only a "war" because Palestine wants it to be. The truth of the matter is that Palestine would love nothing more than to completely destory Israel while I still believe that Israel would be willing to co-exist.

The whole Israel/Palestine situation is too complex to resolve in soundbites in this thread. Perhaps a new debate might be in order? Hmm...

Anyway, reactions to things that have been said -

Kosmo - It's one thing having sympathy for the underdog, it's quite another to support suicide bombing as a rational and acceptable act of self preservation. The targets of suicide bombers are always non-combatant innocents - that is NEVER acceptable and fits squarely into my definition of terrorism. The misguided fuckers that carry out such acts disgust me.

Lowercountry - To claim that Israel is merely reacting to terrorism is a bit one sided. Remember, Israel only came into existence as a state after the war... Palestine (if I'm not mistaken) is mentioned in the Bible. I think the Palestinians have every right to be pissed off if they're treated like second class citizens in their own land. Which is how they're treated, for the most part. Sharon is a lunatic... Only last week, Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of palestinian civilians and killed several - men, women and children. THOSE Palestinians were probably like the majority - scared, sick of it all and in search of the Now Legendary "Quiet Life". No such luck.

We're all to blame for the Israel/Palestine snafu... If 'blame' is a healthy word to use here... Let's cling to a few truths before we all go off the deep end...

Firstly, to say "The Israelites" and "The Palestinians" is to make sweeping generalisations. The vast majority of those people in that region just want it all to stop, I guarantee it.

Secondly, Attacking civilians in ANY WAY is NEVER justified. Sometimes it's unavoidable as part of a bigger offensive, but it's NEVER the right thing to do.

Thirdly - we took up a poisoned chalice when we started to fight "Terrorism". You can't point a gun at an "ism"... and remember - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. WE have to comfortable in a world where the victors write the history. Luckily, we (The West) seem to be the Good Guys at this point.

Just some observations there.

:)

I was going to make a thread about this but it kind of goes with this. My teacher was telling me today that we (meaning the government I guess) are 90% sure that the terrorist attack on the U.S is already done. They expect it to happen this summer maybe end of July, in Boston maybe. I live right near Boston, they could blow up the fleet center or anything important or historical even. When she told us this I got so scared. I'm afraid to go get a job this summer, I don't want anything to happen to me or my family while I'm working. I'm scared. :(

When she told us this I got so scared. I'm afraid to go get a job this summer, I don't want anything to happen to me or my family while I'm working. I'm scared.

Your teacher is an idiot for saying that. Don't be scared. Have faith in your country and it's ability for her to protect herself. No one wants anything to happen. We need to be more aware and watch out for ourselves and our neighbors. Live your life normally. Don't be scared...

Let's give the terrorists, free tickets to a MaryKate and Ashley movie and then tickets to a Hanson concert. After that, they will kill themselves.

tMR

Fade2Black - MetalRepublican is right. (you have NO idea how much it hurts me to say "Republican" and "Right" in the same sentence ;) )But he IS.

Don't live a MINUTE of your life in fear. Every single breath you take is worth more than that. Go and get a job, or dance in the street, or sing at the top of your lungs... do whatever you want to do... just don't be afraid of what someone 5000 miles away is threatening the eastern seaboard with.

Don't you get it? The SECOND you are scared to be you and carry on with your life, THEY'VE WON. We don't even know who THEY are yet... but if we give in to terror, then they've won. It's as simple as that.

So the best thing you can do for the War Against Terror is to carry on being you. Go to school, or go to your job... hang loose on a Friday and Saturday... Lament the start of the working week like the rest of us... But under NO CIRCUMSTANCES let these bastards affect the way you live your life.

That's the only power they have over you. And it's up to YOU if you hand it over or not. I'm asking you NOT to.

We are better than them. If we want a fight, at least we've the decency to take it into the open. Terrorists fight like children and bullies. (I want to make it plain that I in no way endorse President Bush here... Clinton would have done the same, only quicker ;) )

Hell yeah.

Clinton would have done the same, only quicker ;) )[/SIZE]

Right head.. :rolleyes:
He did so much when they bombed the word trade center in 93'. Or how bout when they bombed the USS Cole in 98? Or our embassy in Tanzaneea(sp), and another one of our American embassy's in.....well I cant remember where at the moment, but there was another american embassy that they bombed.(gotta go look it up) :p
Al queada grew very strong while Clinton was pres, so I cant say I agree w/ you on that statement buddy. :p

Right head.. :rolleyes:

Dude - note the small size of font... and the "Sticky-outy-tongue" smiley... I was trying to get a rise out of Mark.

And you blew it. :rolleyes:

Now, you're just going to have to deal with that, young man...

:p

(I want to make it plain that I in no way endorse President Bush here... Clinton would have done the same, only quicker )

Probably... One thing I just want to make clear, I don't think suicide bombing is the right thing to do in any way but if you(not directed to you) seen most of your family killed by Israelis(invaders) what would you guys do?
US could avoid most of Al qaida terrorist attacks if they just stopped supporting Israel taking over a land that doesn't belong to them, at least it's what I heard in some Bin Laden video tape that appeared on TV, Bin Laden said that they would continue the attacks until palestine is freed (something like that), so why US just doesn't stop supporting Israel? if it was the right thing, "good", but it's not..
like the guy beheaded on Iraq some time ago, they demanded the release of prisioners in exchange with the American and US said no deal with terrorists(as I heard in the news) and now after the guy is dead they release the prisioners? That's just stupid, cause if they released them before the guy was beheaded they wouldn't have to bring him in a bag to US, I think US needs to stop with that "no deals with terrorists" and begin dealing with them cause speaking instead of war is sign of civilization, not the reverse.

Kosmo. you astound me. really.

So, some guys say "If you don't do exactly what I want, I'll do something horrible"... And you say we should do it?

So what about the next time they want something? Let me take it to the Nth degree...

"If you don't hand over complete control of your political and banking systems to us, we'll kill this puppy"

Ridiculous and disrespectful I know, but you get the idea?

Please don't be so naive.

Kosmo. you astound me. really.

So, some guys say "If you don't do exactly what I want, I'll do something horrible"... And you say we should do it?

So what about the next time they want something? Let me take it to the Nth degree...

"If you don't hand over complete control of your political and banking systems to us, we'll kill this puppy"

Ridiculous and disrespectful I know, but you get the idea?

Please don't be so naive.

The only major thing they're asking (as far as I know) is the liberation of Palestine, and we can't say they would ask more things cause most goverments never tried to make a deal with them, and if they don't do so terrorism will never stop. And they have no real military means of defending themselves, I mean a big army.. cause if they(terrorists and suicide bombers) had one they would defend Palestine with it, probably.

The only major thing they're asking (as far as I know) is the liberation of Palestine, and we can't say they would ask more things cause most goverments never tried to make a deal with them, and if they don't do so terrorism will never stop.
Read what you just said back to yourself...

'If Governments don't make a deal with Palestine, Terrorism will never stop'

So, what you're saying is that Terrorism is the only avenue open to Palestine to achieve their aims? Do you honestly believe that blowing up women and children on Schoolbusses is an acceptable way of gaining political control? As opposed to, say... an election?

there are COUNTLESS numbers of options open to people before they adopt violence... it's just the easiest way out that these thugs seem to take.

Think about it, Kosmo. Please.

Al Qaida will be happy after they kill 1 million people. Let's just give them all the old people. J/K :D I know, I know, it's harsh.

Read what you just said back to yourself...

'If Governments don't make a deal with Palestine, Terrorism will never stop'

So, what you're saying is that Terrorism is the only avenue open to Palestine to achieve their aims? Do you honestly believe that blowing up women and children on Schoolbusses is an acceptable way of gaining political control? As opposed to, say... an election?

there are COUNTLESS numbers of options open to people before they adopt violence... it's just the easiest way out that these thugs seem to take.

Think about it, Kosmo. Please.

Although I can't see what those ppl can do more(palestinians), if they have options Israel have them too and they should stop invading a land that doesn't belong to them and stop killing many women and children in their own houses, and then progressively try to achieve peace with Palestine.. and US have to stop supporting a war like that cause it's just a shame in my opinion. Palestine do the suicide bombing killing many inoccent ppl but Israel do the same with their army but the difference is that Israel are the invaders, so they should stop cause if they're having so many sucide bombing is their own fault.

Although I can't see what those ppl can do more(palestinians), if they have options Israel have them too and they should stop invading a land that doesn't belong to them and stop killing many women and children in their own houses, and then progressively try to achieve peace with Palestine.. and US have to stop supporting a war like that cause it's just a shame in my opinion. Palestine do the suicide bombing killing many inoccent ppl but Israel do the same with their army but the difference is that Israel are the invaders, so they should stop cause if they're having so many sucide bombing is their own fault.

You are looking through this with rose-colored glasses my friend.

Dude - note the small size of font... and the "Sticky-outy-tongue" smiley... I was trying to get a rise out of Mark.

And you blew it. :rolleyes:

Now, you're just going to have to deal with that, young man...

:p

Doh!


Sorry buddy. :p



And for the record, I would like to declare Kosmo....."Clueless." And please spare me your, "well Bush is the clueless one, blah blah blah..." You really need to re-read what you wrote dude.

The radicals of Islam will stop at nothing to destroy us and all we stand for. They see this war as their “entry to paradise” and a release from the miserable existence they have built for themselves within the confines of an evil and perverse religion. The Jihadist are NOT like us, nor most of their fellow Muslims. But, like terrorists everywhere they have silenced any criticisms from fellow Muslims through threat and intimidation and have, with the help of the ‘useful idiots” in the West, “created the appearance of popular support”.


This paragraph has single-handedly pushed me to vote for Kerry in the upcoming election. In particular, "The Jihadist are NOT like us, nor most of their fellow Muslims." Thank you very much for the blank statement. It's nice to see that he's done his homework on the Muslim religion, carefully picking and choosing which references he wants to include. Right. The blame is clearly on the religion, not the extremists. Hell, why not just say that all Muslims are extremists? What a load of crock.

Head was very much right in putting religion out of the picture. When you deal with fundamentalists, you automatically group all members of that religion (or denomination: Baptists, for example) with their extreme "brethren", making the religion the entire problem. It's just not so simple, even if you have a nice little theory that comes out of that grouping. The world is not linear.

/pif

aaaannd... that's all I have to say...

This paragraph has single-handedly pushed me to vote for Kerry in the upcoming election. In particular, "The Jihadist are NOT like us, nor most of their fellow Muslims." Thank you very much for the blank statement. It's nice to see that he's done his homework on the Muslim religion, carefully picking and choosing which references he wants to include. Right. The blame is clearly on the religion, not the extremists. Hell, why not just say that all Muslims are extremists? What a load of crock.

Head was very much right in putting religion out of the picture. When you deal with fundamentalists, you automatically group all members of that religion (or denomination: Baptists, for example) with their extreme "brethren", making the religion the entire problem. It's just not so simple, even if you have a nice little theory that comes out of that grouping. The world is not linear.

/pif

aaaannd... that's all I have to say...

They pervert the islaamic religion and twist it and use it as an excuse to kill innocent people, even muslims. If you cant see that , i dont know what to say to you.
"The Jihadist are NOT like us, nor most of their fellow Muslims."
What dont you like about this quote? It simply states that these extremists are not like us, or other muslims, implying that its not muslims who are the enemy, but the extremist muslims.

Doh!


Sorry buddy. :p



And for the record, I would like to declare Kosmo....."Clueless." And please spare me your, "well Bush is the clueless one, blah blah blah..." You really need to re-read what you wrote dude.

Istead of just saying that I'm clueless, explain your points of view but I guess for Israeli occupation in palestine there's no excuse..
Palestine belongs to the palestinians NOT to Israel and that's why US shouldn't give them military support, read this (http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/occupied-terr-jeru-pal-isr.html) and then tell me if I'm clueless.

They pervert the islaamic religion and twist it and use it as an excuse to kill innocent people, even muslims. If you cant see that , i dont know what to say to you.

What dont you like about this quote? It simply states that these extremists are not like us, or other muslims, implying that its not muslims who are the enemy, but the extremist muslims.

Then perhaps he should word it better, ne? I personally read it as him saying that all Muslims, including extremists, are the Bad Guys.

As a student of the Islamic religion, I know very well exactly how the fundamentalists are twisting Islam for their own purposes. You simply mistook what I meant, much as you think I misread the author. But I just don't see how he distinguishes other muslims from the extremists.

Fade2Black - MetalRepublican is right. (you have NO idea how much it hurts me to say "Republican" and "Right" in the same sentence ;) )But he IS.

Don't live a MINUTE of your life in fear. Every single breath you take is worth more than that. Go and get a job, or dance in the street, or sing at the top of your lungs... do whatever you want to do... just don't be afraid of what someone 5000 miles away is threatening the eastern seaboard with.

Don't you get it? The SECOND you are scared to be you and carry on with your life, THEY'VE WON. We don't even know who THEY are yet... but if we give in to terror, then they've won. It's as simple as that.

So the best thing you can do for the War Against Terror is to carry on being you. Go to school, or go to your job... hang loose on a Friday and Saturday... Lament the start of the working week like the rest of us... But under NO CIRCUMSTANCES let these bastards affect the way you live your life.

That's the only power they have over you. And it's up to YOU if you hand it over or not. I'm asking you NOT to.

We are better than them. If we want a fight, at least we've the decency to take it into the open. Terrorists fight like children and bullies. (I want to make it plain that I in no way endorse President Bush here... Clinton would have done the same, only quicker ;) )

Hell yeah.
That somehow made me feel better. Thanks. Though I'm not sure how! I dont think anything will happen, they say this all the time, and nothing happens. Maybe we are paranoid in someway because we are always expecting something from "them." We think we know when and where but who can figure that out? :)

When do we get an "I'm sorry" from Arab nations for 9/11 or any other terrorists' acts towards Americans?

Face it: we may get a few passive notions from an Arab leader or two that it isn't right, but they will never wholly condemn it.

i feel as frustrated as you... and you wanna know the what the sad thing is? that neither of both get an "i´m sorry", because the people behind it are too blind or don´t want to see that they made the wrong choice...

peace...
alexa...

Fade2Black - MetalRepublican is right. (you have NO idea how much it hurts me to say "Republican" and "Right" in the same sentence )But he IS.

Don't live a MINUTE of your life in fear. Every single breath you take is worth more than that. Go and get a job, or dance in the street, or sing at the top of your lungs... do whatever you want to do... just don't be afraid of what someone 5000 miles away is threatening the eastern seaboard with.

Don't you get it? The SECOND you are scared to be you and carry on with your life, THEY'VE WON. We don't even know who THEY are yet... but if we give in to terror, then they've won. It's as simple as that.

So the best thing you can do for the War Against Terror is to carry on being you. Go to school, or go to your job... hang loose on a Friday and Saturday... Lament the start of the working week like the rest of us... But under NO CIRCUMSTANCES let these bastards affect the way you live your life.

That's the only power they have over you. And it's up to YOU if you hand it over or not. I'm asking you NOT to.

We are better than them. If we want a fight, at least we've the decency to take it into the open. Terrorists fight like children and bullies. (I want to make it plain that I in no way endorse President Bush here... Clinton would have done the same, only quicker )

Hell yeah.
That's right
why be afraid for something that's very far away from you and you're not in it?
Bush sais that he wants to end war but he makes it! :mad: :mad: :mad:
I hope he doesn't get there again

I understand nothing about this stupid war, I just want it to finish as soon as possible! at least spain isn't there anymore, don't know if that helps or doesn't...

I understand nothing about this stupid war, I just want it to finish as soon as possible! at least spain isn't there anymore, don't know if that helps or doesn't...At least superficially, it appears as though the terrorists got their way through the use of terrorism to get Spain out of Iraq.

At least superficially, it appears as though the terrorists got their way through the use of terrorism to get Spain out of Iraq.
Controversial, Coach!

Controversial, Coach!
Well I added the caveat of "superficially" because I admit that I only know what I passively heard on TV concerning Spain's pull out.

Controversial, Coach!

Controversial , but absalutely true.

Controversial , but absalutely true.
I'm not convinced it's absolutely true, though. I mean, Spain was facing elections, right? And many of the Polling indicators were that the incumbents were gonna take a sound thrashing... (which they did, as it goes). However, the week before the elections, terrorists strike in Madrid. From that point onwards, to the rest of the world, it looks like Terrorists are dictating Spanish democracy.

Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

That is just NOT what happened. Ask Gil.

I'm not convinced it's absolutely true, though. I mean, Spain was facing elections, right? And many of the Polling indicators were that the incumbents were gonna take a sound thrashing... (which they did, as it goes). However, the week before the elections, terrorists strike in Madrid. From that point onwards, to the rest of the world, it looks like Terrorists are dictating Spanish democracy.

Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

That is just NOT what happened. Ask Gil.

From what I saw and read , the popular party looked like it was going to be re-elected.


And this was brought up to Gil a few weeks ago. He didnt refute it.



But what do I know , Im just some dumb American. :p

From what I saw and read , the popular party looked like it was going to be re-elected.Hmm... not what i remember being reported here, but there you go.

And this was brought up to Gil a few weeks ago. He didnt refute it.Gil's a bad example. He doesn't know his arse from his elbow. Ask another Spaniard. And keep asking till you find one that agrees with me... ;)

But what do I know , Im just some dumb American. :pSo? I'm just some drunk Scotsman. :D

*Grabs Mike in a headlock*

That's the kinda love I got fer ya, y'fucker... :D

Hmm... not what i remember being reported here, but there you go.
hmmm...I dunno..

Gil's a bad example. He doesn't know his arse from his elbow. Ask another Spaniard. And keep asking till you find one that agrees with me... ;)
Jackass.
:D

So? I'm just some drunk Scotsman. :D

*Grabs Mike in a headlock*

That's the kinda love I got fer ya, y'fucker... :D

*Hands Head some deoterant* :p

At least superficially, it appears as though the terrorists got their way through the use of terrorism to get Spain out of Iraq.

Well, it's hard to tell if what they wanted was Spain leaving from Iraq... it's very difficult to find out what this