'Grim images of American and British soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners have not only caused disgust and revulsion in the West, but could have forever lost Bush and Blair the moral high ground that they claimed to justify the invasion of Iraq...

IT’S an image that would do Saddam proud. A terrified prisoner, hooded and dressed in rags, his hands out-stretched on either side of him, electrodes attached to his fingers and genitals. He’s been forced to stand on a box about one-foot square. His captors have told him that, if he falls off the box, he’ll be electrocuted.
The torture victim was an Iraqi and his torturers were American soldiers. The picture captures the moment when members of the coalition forces, who styled themselves liberators, were exposed as torturers. The image of the wired and hooded Iraqi was one of a series of photographs, leaked by a horrified US soldier inside Saddam’s old punishment centre, Abu Ghraib – now a US PoW camp.

When the images were flashed around the world by America’s CBS television network last Wednesday, there was a smug feeling within the UK that British troops would never behave like that to their prisoners. But on Friday night, the UK was treated to images – courtesy of the Daily Mirror – of British soldiers urinating on a blood-stained Iraqi captive, holding guns against the man’s head, stamping on his face, kicking him in the mouth and beating him in the groin with a rifle butt.

The pictures of US soldiers torturing their captives have the added horror of sexual abuse. In five of the 14 images that the Sunday Herald has seen, a female soldier – identified as Lynndie England, a 21-year-old from a West Virginia trailer park – is playing up to the camera while her captives are tortured. In one picture, she’s smiling and giving the thumbs-up. Her hand rests on the buttocks of a naked and hooded Iraqi who has been forced to sit on the shoulders of another Iraqi prisoner.

In another, she is sprawled laughing over a pyramid of naked Iraqis. A male colleague stands behind her grinning. Later, she’s got a cigarette clenched between grinning lips and is pointing at the genitals of a line of naked, hooded Iraqis. A third snap shows her embracing a colleague as a naked Iraqi lies before them.

In other pictures, two naked Iraqis are forced to simulate oral sex and a group of naked Iraqi men are made to clamber on to each other’s backs. One dreadful picture features nothing but the bloated face of an Iraqi who has been beaten to death. His body is wrapped in plastic.

Other pictures, which the world has not seen, but which are in the hands of the US military, include shots of a dog attacking a prisoner. An accused soldier says dogs are “used for intimidation factors”.

There are also pictures of an apparent male rape. An Iraqi PoW claims that a civilian translator, hired to work in the prison, raped a male juvenile prisoner. He said: “They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming ... and the female soldier was taking pictures.”

The British pictures show a hooded Iraqi aged between 18-20 on the floor of a military truck being brutalised. According to two squaddies who took part in the torture, but later blew the whistle, the Iraqi’s ordeal lasted eight hours and he was left with a broken jaw and missing teeth. He was bleeding and vomited when his captors threw him out of a speeding truck. No-one knows if he lived or died.

One of the British soldiers said: “Basically this guy was dying as he couldn’t take any more. An officer came down. It was ‘Get rid of him – I haven’t seen him’.” The other whistle-blower said he had witnessed a prisoner being beaten senseless by troops. “You could hear your mate’s boots hitting this lad’s spine ... One of the lads broke his wrist off a prisoner’s head. Another nearly broke his foot kicking him.” '

The articles a bit long, so the rest of it is here: http://www.sundayherald.com/41693

I find that totally disgusting and inhumane. Do you feel their actions were justified, or there might be more to it? So what do you think should be done? Discuss...

Not justified, of course, but seemingly the inevitable result of war. To truly treat an enemy as an enemy you must see them as less than human, or at least less than you. Once you've achieved that then any treatment directed toward them can be justified.

Not justified, of course, but seemingly the inevitable result of war. To truly treat an enemy as an enemy you must see them as less than human, or at least less than you. Once you've achieved that then any treatment directed toward them can be justified.

Yes, that depends....because it doesn't say (or I might have missed it), whether the Iraqi prisoners were soldiers or civilians. The civilians aren't MEANT to be the enemy, the American and British soldiers are meant to be trying to help them, not torture them. The Iraqi soldiers are really the enemy.

Sick, sick stuff. What disgusts me as well is the neocon talking heads trying to make it sound less horrible by mentioning how Saddam tortured his subjects. That doesn't make it any more right for coalition troops to do it.

Yes, that depends....because it doesn't say (or I might have missed it), whether the Iraqi prisoners were soldiers or civilians. The civilians aren't MEANT to be the enemy, the American and British soldiers are meant to be trying to help them, not torture them. The Iraqi soldiers are really the enemy.

I think you missed the point of my post, which is that war is dehumanizing all around. Whether they were civillians or not, they were "the other" and in the control of "us" so their treatment is rather par for the course in war. Geneva Convention or not, this sadism is the effect war has on those involved in it.

Everybody's claiming against the US now!

But... who is claiming against the coward sons of bitch who are usually jumping, dancing and laughing over the allied soldiers' crippled corpses? :mad:

Everybody's claiming against the US now!

But... who is claiming against the coward sons of bitch who are usually jumping, dancing and laughing over the allied soldiers' crippled corpses? :mad:

I think they're all a bunch of assholes!

There's a good chance that the Photos of the British soldiers were faked... the story was run byt the Daily Mirror, which is as reactionary a pamphlet as you'll ever find. It's run by this profiteering, shallow, unscrupulous dickhead called Piers Morgan and he'd happily sell nekkid pictures of his own mother on the net if he thought he could make a quid or two.

Well, the story they ran was about a Lancashire based battallion. The events occurred over 3 months ago, people have been identified and removed from service (including a General, no less), and the Ministry of Defence expects charges to be brought under military law. Morgan and his bunch of sensationalist assholes appear to have used manufactured pictures to recreate the story in the wake of the American revelations of late, just to sell more papers.

By way of an example, the photos were taken in a mobile facility. The army QM says that the mobile facility in question wasn't even posted to Iraq during the conflict. Hmm...

Don't get me wrong - our soldiers did perform horrible acts of humiliation and torture upon their captives - just not the same soldiers and not at the same time as our papers are currently alleging.

As for the American side of things, I think that Rumsfeld has scored a serious Own Goal by keeping this to himself up until now. It's made the administration look foolish and incompetent (by not knowing what it's secretaries are doing) and for that I think he should resign.

(Is everybody impressed that I managed to get through that without saying a bad word about Bush? Cos I am ;) )

(Is everybody impressed that I managed to get through that without saying a bad word about Bush? Cos I am ;) )
You call it impressed, I call it disappointed. ;)

I think you missed the point of my post, which is that war is dehumanizing all around. Whether they were civillians or not, they were "the other" and in the control of "us" so their treatment is rather par for the course in war. Geneva Convention or not, this sadism is the effect war has on those involved in it.

Ohh...ok :D I really hate Bush now :mad:

I didn't realise whats-his-face defence secretary person actually KNEW about these torturings?! :eek: :mad:

You call it impressed, I call it disappointed. ;)

It was a Titanic struggle for me!! I'm trying to be kind about the Chimp-faced Fuckwit, cos it's an electi...

Aw, crap. I fell off the wagon.

Oh well - screw it. Rumsfeld probably DID tell Bush what was going on, but the fucking idiot was probably too busy playing with his new Hammer Toy to remember.

It was a Titanic struggle for me!! I'm trying to be kind about the Chimp-faced Fuckwit, cos it's an electi...

Aw, crap. I fell off the wagon.

Oh well - screw it. Rumsfeld probably DID tell Bush what was going on, but the fucking idiot was probably too busy playing with his new Hammer Toy to remember.

It's not Head without the editorial comments. That is what makes your posts so entertaining :D

Damn, are Gabe and Head becoming more republican or am I becoming less?

That poor girl smoking the cig and holding the naked Iraqi at leash end, will more than likely kill herself. (Let's hope not. I hope she can hold strong through this.) I honestly think that she thought she was being funny. She and her picture posers give a bad name to the hundreds of thousands who are honorable. Just think. She is sitting in a holding sell shut off from the world that is blaming her for tarnishing what we have worked so long and hard to maintian. She was able to damage it with in a matter of a second by standing in front of someone with a camera.

With vigour, I am off to safe the world through my Republican idealism. Well maybe not the world but at least the EvBoard.

theMetalRepublican

She and her picture posers give a bad name to the hundreds of thousands who are honorable. Just think. She is sitting in a holding sell shut off from the world that is blaming her for tarnishing what we have worked so long and hard to maintian. She was able to damage it with in a matter of a second by standing in front of someone with a camera.


Wow... the resident Socialist (me) is agreeing with the resident Republican. That's an accomplishment.

But... who is claiming against the coward sons of bitch who are usually jumping, dancing and laughing over the allied soldiers' crippled corpses? :mad:

What? How is that at all relevant? That some Fallujah Iraqis kill four Blackwater mercenaries (called "contractors" for obvious reasons) is hardly an argument for the use of torture in Abu Ghraib prison, which, some of you were discussing, contains some POWs and some civilians. Somehow I doubt the man standing on a box with wires attacked to him was any part of the Fallujah incident.

(Also, they're called coalition troops now, not allied. Condi Rice tried that mix-up to make the Iraq war seem as justified as the Second World War, recently.)

Additionally, Edward Said doesn't like you anymore. (random philosophy joke)

What? How is that at all relevant? That some Fallujah Iraqis kill four Blackwater mercenaries (called "contractors" for obvious reasons) is hardly an argument for the use of torture in Abu Ghraib prison, which, some of you were discussing, contains some POWs and some civilians. Somehow I doubt the man standing on a box with wires attacked to him was any part of the Fallujah incident.

(Also, they're called coalition troops now, not allied. Condi Rice tried that mix-up to make the Iraq war seem as justified as the Second World War, recently.)

Additionally, Edward Said doesn't like you anymore. (random philosophy joke)

Alex, you know damn good and well that he wasn't implying about the mercenaries that were killed. I remember several American prisoners who were killed and their heads put on display in some sqaure for all to see. I think he was speaking to general parades of POWs of the past and not to a specific event.

What we did was wrong but in comparison to what they have done, we look like first graders mocking another kid.

tMR

What we did was wrong but in comparison to what they have done, we look like first graders mocking another kid.

Still it shouldn't be compared as who's treatment of POW's was worse. Torture and disregard for human life is wrong whether in war or not. The point is that it's still being done and no one is keeping taps on it securely.

Alex, you know damn good and well that he wasn't implying about the mercenaries that were killed. I remember several American prisoners who were killed and their heads put on display in some sqaure for all to see. I think he was speaking to general parades of POWs of the past and not to a specific event.

What we did was wrong but in comparison to what they have done, we look like first graders mocking another kid.

I'm sorry I do not know "damn good and well" s/he wasn't implying the mercenaries. This:

"But... who is claiming against the coward sons of bitch who are usually jumping, dancing and laughing over the allied soldiers' crippled corpses?"

is rather vague. The most recent images that came to mind are that of the Fallujah attack. Either way, whether the incident was Fallujah or not that was being implied, it isn't an argument for the use of torture. In particular, it is not an argument for the use of torture of those persons not morally responsible for the incident.

As far as logic is concerned, arguing that someone else is worse is arguing what is called a non sequitur (you may have seen the Sunday morning comics) argumentative fallacy. Arguing that Saddam's prisons were worse, which I'll completely concede, does not ethically clear US soldiers who engage in the abuse of Iraqis. We can, after all, argue like this over Hitler vs. Stalin, but the immorality of both is rather overbearing, n'est-ce pas?

Still it shouldn't be compared as who's treatment of POW's was worse. Torture and disregard for human life is wrong whether in war or not. The point is that it's still being done and no one is keeping taps on it securely.

I agree FunkyChicken (I can't keep a straight face when I type that, anyway) So they can kill our soldiers and drag them through the streets and not be held accountable for their actions. Gil was making a point that no one in Iraq was complaining about the treatment of our POWs when they killed and dragged through the streets. They infact were jumping up and down around the corpses and parading them around. All I was saying is that what we did was nothing in comparison. It was wrong, but not nearly as horrible as what they did to us. That is all he was implying. Don't compare the two.

In war there will always be torture on both sides, I can assure you that our torture isn't nearly as bad as theirs.

As far as logic is concerned, arguing that someone else is worse is arguing what is called a non sequitur (you may have seen the Sunday morning comics) argumentative fallacy. Arguing that Saddam's prisons were worse, which I'll completely concede, does not ethically clear US soldiers who engage in the abuse of Iraqis. We can, after all, argue like this over Hitler vs. Stalin, but the immorality of both is rather overbearing, n'est-ce pas?

No one should be cleared. Just don't hold each as the same when one involves death and the other doesn't. The point was made that no one in Iraq was protesting to the Iraqis on how our POWs were mistreated. Look at the facts. There was torture on both sides. One was worse than the other. Why is it that the lesser of the two hurts a nation, when the torture on our POWs went relatively unoticed by the Iraqis and others in the reigon. They don't care about our POWs but we care about theirs. That is the point that Gil was making. I think. If I know Jerry.

tMR

Alex, chill out. Remember, Gil is Spanish and English is his second language. I think he's got fucking Marvellous English, but sometimes you just have to 'get his meaning'.

Which, in my opinion, always makes sense.

Unless he's fucking around.

Which is 98% of the time.

:)

I agree FunkyChicken (I can't keep a straight face when I type that, anyway) So they can kill our soldiers and drag them through the streets and not be held accountable for their actions. Gil was making a point that no one in Iraq was complaining about the treatment of our POWs when they killed and dragged through the streets. They infact were jumping up and down around the corpses and parading them around. All I was saying is that what we did was nothing in comparison. It was wrong, but not nearly as horrible as what they did to us. That is all he was implying. Don't compare the two.

In war there will always be torture on both sides, I can assure you that our torture isn't nearly as bad as theirs.

tMR

I think what sickens me worse than anything is the fact that Americans did this! We are all well aware of the treacherous nature of war. Torture, inhumane treatment, yes it is the way of war. Still, aren't we as Americans just a bit more moral than this. I'm sorry but this is just sick and wrong. I don't give a shit if they do this or worse.

Most of the people we have fought against come from a completely different background. Violence is a way of life for these people, has been for a long time. Many are brain-washed from birth. Grow up harboring beliefs that make hatred and violent actions towards Americans justified in their minds. They may not know better, but we do! We have been taught equality, justice for all. Fair treatment and acceptance of all nations, races and creeds has been drilled into our heads since we were little. Does this all change because of war? It shouldn't.

This war was supposed to be about ridding the world of the evils of terrorism.
It's a sad turn of events when Americans brought up with morals and standards decide to demoralize the enemy in a way that is against all America stands for. Enemy or not these men were still human beings.

All in all, American soldiers should know better than to do this shit. I have no doubt it has gone on for along time. Now the cat is indeed out of the bag. Taking photographs was the dumbest thing any of them ever could have done because it gives other countries the ammunition they have been looking. It appears to them, at this point Bush and Rumsfeld(oh especially him, he's known for months this has been going on :confused: ) are not much better than the tyrannical Sadam and Bin Laden they ousted.

The politics of war, isn't just peachy? :mad:

What? How is that at all relevant? That some Fallujah Iraqis kill four Blackwater mercenaries (called "contractors" for obvious reasons) is hardly an argument for the use of torture in Abu Ghraib prison, which, some of you were discussing, contains some POWs and some civilians. Somehow I doubt the man standing on a box with wires attacked to him was any part of the Fallujah incident.

(Also, they're called coalition troops now, not allied. Condi Rice tried that mix-up to make the Iraq war seem as justified as the Second World War, recently.)

Additionally, Edward Said doesn't like you anymore. (random philosophy joke)

You are talking of mercenaries... we have lost almost a dozen of good professionals, not mercenaries themselves. I know what I am talking about, such images of dirty narrowminded people mocking the corpses remain in our memory, nationwide. You take notice of this, these people are always doing shit having children and teens around... they don't care how many will be killed b/c they use them on behalf of their main purpose.


Alex, chill out. Remember, Gil is Spanish and English is his second language. I think he's got fucking Marvellous English, but sometimes you just have to 'get his meaning'.

Which, in my opinion, always makes sense.

Unless he's fucking around.

Which is 98% of the time.

:)


Head!
You also have a very hot rib, darling! :p *mwahahahaha*


English is my second language, and try to explain as accurate as possible what to say... ew... not complicated but disturbing when people mix words and spread sentences with double meaning. Sorry if some of you misunderstood my words. However, I bet for the coalition, for the Western World, 100 % *no doubts*

I think it was unjustified, and it should have never happened.

While I understand the mindset of these people that did it, and I'm sure in some sense we can all relate in our interest in retalliation, they should have thought ahead to realize that there would be a severe backlash not only on themselves, but as well as the outlook on America as a whole.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we have a horrible military. I think they were put in a bad position from the beginning due to our government's decisions. I am extremely grateful for every member of our military, especially since I have two cousins and a favorite teacher in the Middle-East. I don't completely understand what all is happening in Iraq and the rest of the Middle-East, nor does anyone, but what happened isn't too strategic on our (America's) behalf.

I'm pretty sure much worse has happened to those imprisoned by Iraqis, but that doesn't make it right for us to try and 'make it even'. No human being deserves what happened on the end of each case for both Iraqi and American imprisonment. I don't think we should be trying to weigh which one is worse, because it doesn't matter. They were both pretty damned terrible, if such a word can describe. All I'm saying is that I think that we honestly need to not dwell in what has happened (again, in both cases). If we keep our heads in the past, it's as good as being up our asses.

We must always keep the past in mind or of course it shall painfully revisit, but we can't live in the past. We've gotta keep looking at what is coming at us now, and how we can fix it and deal with it.

My final thought is that things will never go right if everyone continues to try out-do each other with greater evils.

Michelle...

your post is the best one, well said! ;)

BUT... you probably are talking in good will b/c have already the chance to share such words from the FREE world... to all of us... but not all the planet inhabitants would agree with you

in most of such countries, being a woman, you could be stoned to Death.

Torture is not justified, never, I agree!

The war either, but if the US and the coalition can afford the challenge and seed the true democracy, feed and educate the children, and build another society in the Middle East, things may change.

It appears to them, at this point Bush and Rumsfeld(oh especially him, he's known for months this has been going on :confused: ) are not much better than the tyrannical Sadam and Bin Laden they ousted.

The politics of war, isn't just peachy? :mad:

What an unbalanced statement. You are suggesting that people who supported a killer for a dictator now all of a sudden show compassion to those that Saddam may have killed months earlier? Please, it is the Yen and the Yang of war/unrule. Do not ever compare Bush to Saddam in the eyes of anyone. Anyone who can see honor and justice can see that the two are in no way similar. :mad:

My brother is Iranian and a Democrat. He thinks that this war is the best thing for the region. Why, because if you can show a specific part of the middle east how it is to live a free life then the region will change. Those there who oppose the war do not want the change. It will fracture everything that they have worked for under that rule. If the change happens then they lose power and when that happens, then they lose control. No control, no power, no life they way they want it to be. It is that simple. Religion, control and/or freedom are to root of all wars.

tMR

Your BROTHER is Iranian?

No disrespect, man... but explain "Brother"... because you don't even look 1% Arabian to me... Seriously - I'm not being funny anymore - I just don't see how your family fits into this debate...

If it's "brother" in another sense, then fair enough... Otherwise please explain what the Hell you mean.

And before anyone says "It's none of your business, Head! Lay off!!" then please remember I didn't bring it up.

Tell me about your Iranian brother. I apologise in advance for any abuse he has suffered...

(I am soooo not joking right now..)

Why, because if you can show a specific part of the middle east how it is to live a free life then the region will change.
What gives us the right to change another people's culture?

Those there who oppose the war do not want the change. It will fracture everything that they have worked for under that rule. If the change happens then they lose power and when that happens, then they lose control. No control, no power, no life they way they want it to be.
So we are removing the control of that region and replacing it with out ours? Why can't they have the life they want to have?

It is that simple. Religion, control and/or freedom are to root of all wars.
I must reiterate, religion is not the cause of wars. It's the HUMAN interpretation and the silly disagreement that people have over it that is the root. Religion is neutral. Its how people use the religion that make the difference.

I am not exactly the most avid debator here on evboard, but here is my two cents on the issue:

1) War is hell (for all involved).
2) I am angered. There is no excuse for this behavior on the part of the U.S. soldiers. The entire chain of command involved (from the lowest ranking soldier to the Commander-in-chief himself) bears responsibility for these heinous acts. The Red Cross must be allowed full access to these prisioners. (as well as the "enemy combatants" held in Guatanamo Bay, Cuba).

I pray for the safe return of our U.S. troops, and the end of the unneccessary grief of the prisoners. This is all I have to say on this issue.

Before I start I want to say I totally do not agree with the tourture of the prisoners. However we dont know how they feel over there. They are away from there families and in constant fear for there lives. They see there own friends killed and see the horrors of war first hand. I think to be in war you have to have no conscience. You have to make yourself not have empathy for other people. I think its there way of expressioning there anger. Its human nature to want to hurt the enemy. Like I said I dont agree with it but I can try to understand why they are doing that.

The guard vs prisoner syndrome comes into play here. That's all it really is. Those that have authority over someone else tend to dehumanize that which they have control over. The psychology study done at Standford was a good example of that. They had mock guards and prisoners, and observed the interactions between them. The experiment got so out of hand (the guards abusing the prisoners even though it was all volunteer) forced the study to be aborted. And these were equal citizens and or students that participated. Put in a war situation, I'm sure the factors play a larger part and influence. There must be a way to resolve guard duty before a situation can escalate.

What an unbalanced statement. You are suggesting that people who supported a killer for a dictator now all of a sudden show compassion to those that Saddam may have killed months earlier? Please, it is the Yen and the Yang of war/unrule. Do not ever compare Bush to Saddam in the eyes of anyone. Anyone who can see honor and justice can see that the two are in no way similar. :mad:

In using the word THEY I was referring to Bush and the coalition troops running(ousted) both the tyrants out of power. I was in no way saying anything about his loyalists suddenly feeling compassion for the slain. You misunderstood what I was getting it. It is quite apparent his loyalists are as feverent as ever(Fallujah) in staying that way.
This comment I made was about how all the countries opposed to this war believe Bush invaded Iraq to get the job done his Father couldn't. Obviously, Bush is not very well liked by many other leaders. They were first dismayed that the US took it upon themselves to go against the UN, going forth with the war. Now they are laughing their asses off at this current scandal. They see Americans as smug SOB's who think they are better than the rest of the world. Their attitudes piss me off.
That is all I was getting at. By our soldiers acting in such a demeaning manor it adds fuel to their fires.I was simply making commentary on this.

I'm sorry TMR, if I misunderstood your posts, but are you saying that what the Americans did are nothing compared to what the Iraqis did? If that is the case, then I have to say I disagree with you. The reason the Iraqis retaliate is because the American soldiers aren't MEANT to be there, the Iraqis want to be free from everyone, and live their own way, ESPECIALLY without the interference of Bush. Like someone else said, who has the right to change these people's lives? Besides, the Iraqi prisoners were SEXUALLY ABUSED and humiliated beyond belief, some were even killed. Is there any justification for sexual abuse? I'm not saying there was any justification for either side in the war, but I think people have to understand that the Iraqis at least had SOME REASON for retaliating. When you're in their position, and all your brought up with is hatred for Americans and the like, that's all you really know. Violence. Americans weren't brought up like that.

i know this was said a while ago but i havent had the chance to reply until now.


In war there will always be torture on both sides, I can assure you that our torture isn't nearly as bad as theirs.

and just how do you know this? comparing the brutality of torture from both sides is no way of justifying the actions of the american and british soldiers. I thought Saddam was captured to stop the torture and suffering of the iraqi people. Now it seems they are suffering the same brutality and humiliation from the people who claimed to have saved them from it.
and fizzy i agree with everything you said.

just saw this on the bbc site (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3692507.stm)
"He added that he had not realised the seriousness of the allegations until pictures were leaked to journalists. "
:rolleyes:

just saw this on the[color=plum]bbc site (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3692507.stm)
"He added that he had not realised the seriousness of the allegations until pictures were leaked to journalists. "
:rolleyes:

And he didn't bother to investigate? Stupid bastard. :mad:

By torturing Iraqui prisoners, the troops have officially scooped down to the level of the enemy. Congratulations for their honorable actions ( and of course I am being sarcastic)


Their actions are disgusting, repugnant, and...I just don't think I could use enough words to describe what a disappointment and how sad and disturbing this is.

mk here are my thoughts and opinions

1. FCC should step in on this and fine CBS for airing the photos. if the FCC doesnt the goverment should. Those photos regaurdless of what they were of are classified army/goverment documents. They should have never been aired. More so on a Network tv channel that any one and they're two year old can see.

2. All parties should be punished to the full extent. Most will get the following...
Reduction of Pay for a certain amouont of time.
Prison Time
Bad Conduct Discharge

and you know what all the people that were tortured...LET them have they're way with these soldiers...yeah i said.. strip the soldiers down tie em up and let the iraqis beat them. They deserve Death anyway.

3. Donald Rumsfeild....didnt do his job properly and hes owned up to that in front of the Senate. Inpeach him. If he cant tell dubya whats going on in Iraq we need someone who can. Holding this off since Jan. is bullshit. He should have formally informed the president ALONG time ago. But he didnt do his Job and Now the US is under stress for it.
I N P E A C H - H I M =)

edit: when i say the FCC should fine CBS for airing the photos what i mean is being the subject matter the photos were and being so graphic on a News Cast at 7pm when children can see that is wrong. I dont care if the dicks and ass were faded or not its still not a proper thing to show.

The guard vs prisoner syndrome comes into play here. That's all it really is. Those that have authority over someone else tend to dehumanize that which they have control over. The psychology study done at Standford was a good example of that. They had mock guards and prisoners, and observed the interactions between them. The experiment got so out of hand (the guards abusing the prisoners even though it was all volunteer) forced the study to be aborted. And these were equal citizens and or students that participated. Put in a war situation, I'm sure the factors play a larger part and influence. There must be a way to resolve guard duty before a situation can escalate.that is what i was going to say, that thier power over the prisonors went to thier heads and they thought that they could do whatever they wanted to them.
also i think the fact that the woman...i forget her name...was in the pictures dragging the iraqi men around on a leash and all that, made it worse, as the Iraqi men are thought to be superior to women, and now the religious leaders have said that women coalition prisoners are to be made into sex slaves!! but i dont think it matters that it was americans doing those horrible things, because i would have been equally horrified if it was any other country, maybe more if it was Aussies.

Before I start I want to say I totally do not agree with the tourture of the prisoners. However we dont know how they feel over there. They are away from there families and in constant fear for there lives. They see there own friends killed and see the horrors of war first hand. I think to be in war you have to have no conscience. You have to make yourself not have empathy for other people. I think its there way of expressioning there anger. Its human nature to want to hurt the enemy. Like I said I dont agree with it but I can try to understand why they are doing that.


Well said! Let us not forget that 9/11 is probably fresh in the soldier’s minds as well, and if it were me well.... Paybacks a Bitch....

Well said! Let us not forget that 9/11 is probably fresh in the soldier’s minds as well, and if it were me well.... Paybacks a Bitch....the iraqys had nothing to do with 9/11 did they? then the only similarity most iraqys and the terrorists at 9/11 have is that they are muslim. and thats no reason to go around bullying the iraqys.

the iraqys had nothing to do with 9/11 did they? then the only similarity most iraqys and the terrorists at 9/11 have is that they are muslim. and thats no reason to go around bullying the iraqys.


True, but if you were a soldier would you honestly give a shit about the difference between "Iraqies" and "Terrorists"? If it were me (and this is just me, no need for people to get bent) all I would be thinking of is how many American's lost lives or lost loved ones in 9/11....

True, but if you were a soldier would you honestly give a shit about the difference between "Iraqies" and "Terrorists"? If it were me (and this is just me, no need for people to get bent) all I would be thinking of is how many American's lost lives or lost loved ones in 9/11....course i would give a shit! Terrorists were islamic extremists (well thats what we are led to believe) and a bunch of dickheads, no doubt about that. but the iraqys are just human beings like every single one of us. shit the phone rang and i lost my point but ill post it here as soon as it comes back :rolleyes: fuckin fish memory :mad:

ooo and it wasnt just americans that lost their loved ones. People of all different races, religions, nationalitys etc lost their lives in the attacks. I wouldnt be surprised if some iraqys lost their lives in the attacks.

course i would give a shit! Terrorists were islamic extremists (well thats what we are led to believe) and a bunch of dickheads, no doubt about that. but the iraqys are just human beings like every single one of us. shit the phone rang and i lost my point but ill post it here as soon as it comes back :rolleyes: fuckin fish memory :mad:

ooo and it wasnt just americans that lost their loved ones. People of all different races, religions, nationalitys etc lost their lives in the attacks. I wouldnt be surprised if some iraqys lost their lives in the attacks.


Ok, we will agree to disagree then... :D Because personally if I was in that situation, I don't think I could distinguish my anger between the two...

And the reason why I said "Americans" is because we are Americans no matter what race or religion you are, if you reside in this country legally you are more then likely an American...

But I could be wrong....that's just my opinion...

Head:
Alex, chill out. Remember, Gil is Spanish and English is his second language. I think he's got fucking Marvellous English, but sometimes you just have to 'get his meaning'.

I hadn't known Gil was Spanish. I understand now, or at least more than I had before.

I don't think it matters anything, but I am Quebecois (French Canadian), living in Nebraska. I know the problem language can create.

theMetalRepublican:
The point was made that no one in Iraq was protesting to the Iraqis on how our POWs were mistreated. Look at the facts. There was torture on both sides. One was worse than the other. Why is it that the lesser of the two hurts a nation, when the torture on our POWs went relatively unoticed by the Iraqis and others in the reigon. They don't care about our POWs but we care about theirs.

Yes, this is all very well and good. It also does not adress the point that what you say is a non sequitur. We can essentially assume that torture occured in Saddam's prisons. If we can assume that, there is little point in repeating the allegation countless times. Do you somehow think I am denying that they torture prisoners? If not, then why keep repeating the claim ad nauseum?

The reason the criticism of the US torture continues is because it shows both something happening now (whereas Saddam can no longer torture, being captured and all), and it contradicts a basic assumption of many int he West that the US is always good, always freedom-loving democratic. Torturing prisoners is supposed to be something that only the bad guy does, not the US. Torturing prisoners is something the postmodern Other does. That is why it becomes such a scandal.

aniron:
1. FCC should step in on this and fine CBS for airing the photos. if the FCC doesnt the goverment should. Those photos regaurdless of what they were of are classified army/goverment documents. They should have never been aired. More so on a Network tv channel that any one and they're two year old can see.

The photos were taken by private individuals as mementos (i.e. private property). They are not classified documents, nor were they ever given a security clearance label.

What gives us the right to change another people's culture?


So we are removing the control of that region and replacing it with out ours? Why can't they have the life they want to have?


I must reiterate, religion is not the cause of wars. It's the HUMAN interpretation and the silly disagreement that people have over it that is the root. Religion is neutral. Its how people use the religion that make the difference.

It isn't our right to change anyones culture without thier consent. They want the change, they just can't ask for it because they would be killed. The ones that are fighting are wanting to maintain control. I am not saying to go in and start shipping tons of Pepsi and Porno. Just give them the decision to choose how they want to live. They could not do that when Saddam was in power and they will not until they are safe in knowing that they can. Are you suggesting that they would rather live under a vicious dictator or be able to have the rights to do as they wish? All I am saying is that they would much rather be free than ruled. Not to force feed our culture on them.

And religion, however neutral, is still the underlying factor of some wars. You said it. "It's the HUMAN interpretation and the silly disagreement that people have over it that is the root." Over what? Religion. I agree with you but you need to understand that, however small/neutral, religion is the cause of the disagreement.

It isn't our right to change anyones culture without thier consent.

With or without consent... they might look to Germany and Japan after WWII and learn. After a tragedy things may improve for better.

The Western World MAY NOT leave them alone... this world MUST change at once...

It isn't our right to change anyones culture without thier consent. They want the change, they just can't ask for it because they would be killed. The ones that are fighting are wanting to maintain control. I am not saying to go in and start shipping tons of Pepsi and Porno. Just give them the decision to choose how they want to live. They could not do that when Saddam was in power and they will not until they are safe in knowing that they can. Are you suggesting that they would rather live under a vicious dictator or be able to have the rights to do as they wish? All I am saying is that they would much rather be free than ruled. Not to force feed our culture on them.


*Ahem* But is torturing Iraqis really going about it the right way? I think not.

[QUOTE=MetalRepublican]It isn't our right to change anyones culture without thier consent. They want the change, they just can't ask for it because they would be killed. The ones that are fighting are wanting to maintain control. I am not saying to go in and start shipping tons of Pepsi and Porno. Just give them the decision to choose how they want to live. They could not do that when Saddam was in power and they will not until they are safe in knowing that they can. Are you suggesting that they would rather live under a vicious dictator or be able to have the rights to do as they wish? All I am saying is that they would much rather be free than ruled. Not to force feed our culture on them.
[QUOTE]

*Ahem* But is torturing Iraqis really going about it the right way? I think not.

Fizzy, I never said that the torture was right. Stop trying to sound informed by restating something that we all agree is wrong. I can see that you are 14 but understand that you can't always use the same argument to prove a point.

You will grow up one day.

tMR

Fizzy, I never said that the torture was right. Stop trying to sound informed by restating something that we all agree is wrong. I can see that you are 14 but understand that you can't always use the same argument to prove a point.

You will grow up one day.

tMR

Yes, but THIS TOPIC is about torturing Itaqis, not whether the war is right or wrong.

Yes, but THIS TOPIC is about torturing Itaqis, not whether the war is right or wrong.

*Slowly*
I...understand...that...this....is...about....tort uring...Iraqis.
That's...what.....we....were....talking....about.

I know that you are eagerly awaiting the release of the the final movie about Harry Potter but until then, find a newspaper and learn a bit more about the war and not just spout what you have heard from your family and/or friends.

tMR

*Slowly*
I...understand...that...this....is...about....tort uring...Iraqis.
That's...what.....we....were....talking....about.

I know that you are eagerly awaiting the release of the the final movie about Harry Potter but until then, find a newspaper and learn a bit more about the war and not just spout what you have heard from your family and/or friends.

tMR

Then why are you still blathering on about religion and what-not? And I hate the Harry Potter movies.

*Slowly*
I...understand...that...this....is...about....tort uring...Iraqis.
That's...what.....we....were....talking....about.

I know that you are eagerly awaiting the release of the the final movie about Harry Potter but until then, find a newspaper and learn a bit more about the war and not just spout what you have heard from your family and/or friends.

tMRyou know, i thought highly of you and appreciated your input...up until now. dont bring age into this. if you want to bring age into it remember you're 38, be mature. :rolleyes: lets not ruin a debate with pointless arguments.

*Slowly*
I...understand...that...this....is...about....tort uring...Iraqis.
That's...what.....we....were....talking....about.

I know that you are eagerly awaiting the release of the the final movie about Harry Potter but until then, find a newspaper and learn a bit more about the war and not just spout what you have heard from your family and/or friends.

tMR


Mwahahaha! Stop this, plz, stop!!! :D *Mark, you crack me up seriously!*

Then why are you still blathering on about religion and what-not? And I hate the Harry Potter movies.

Huh? :confused: Babe, the brave pig perhaps??? :p

you know, i thought highly of you and appreciated your input...up until now. dont bring age into this. if you want to bring age into it remember you're 38, be mature. :rolleyes:

Mindyj, Before now, have you ever once heard me refer to anyone's comments and bring up age? This board has many many young and informed members. He is not one of them. That is why HIS age was brought into it. Not age per say. His age. And I am sorry that I have offended you but I was not talking about your age or the age of any one else on this board. I hope you can understand that. I repsect the young people on this board and in the country.

Let me tell you a story. When I met John Lee for the first time, he called me and wanted to know if I allowed children in my Inn. My reply to him was "Of course, they grow up to be someone." Amy was 16 at the time. Low and behold. Look at what she has become. As I said, I am sorry that you took offense but it wasn't at you and your age or that of anyone else on the board that is young. It had everything to do with an uninformed person who kept saying the same thing.

And Fizzy, as far as the religion, I was asked about it so I replied.

tMR

Mindyj, Before now, have you ever once heard me refer to anyone's comments and bring up age? This board has many many young and informed members. He is not one of them. That is why HIS age was brought into it. Not age per say. His age. And I am sorry that I have offended you but I was not talking about your age or the age of any one else on this board. I hope you can understand that. I repsect the young people on this board and in the country.

tMR

Her. HER age. And how do you know I'm not informed? But look, let's just carry on with the debate and not argue :p

Her. HER age. And how do you know I'm not informed? But look, let's just carry on with the debate and not argue :p

Sorry. Her age, my bad.

Sounds good to me.
What were we debating? ;)

tMR

Sorry. Her age, my bad.

Sounds good to me.
What were we debating? ;)

tMR


Ew... I thought she was he talking about them but now he is she without talkings about torturing iraquis, but iraquis in jail are male, or maybe female? ... agh... what a puzzle! :(

Ew... I thought she was he talking about them but now he is she without talkings about torturing iraquis, but iraquis in jail are male, or maybe female? ... agh... what a puzzle! :(

Um... :confused: That sounds about right...

:D*is happy because she has a coloured username*

http://st-ives.net/dlv/conspiracy/conspire.gif
:D :D :D :D :D :D

okay, here i go
this pics weren't unusual, he just have to take a look back at what american soldiers did to Guantanamo prisoners.
both parts (USA and Great Britain vs. Iraq) have abused of their prisoners, because we all know how power corrupts, and how normal people can behave as kids believing they're superior.
personally, i feel lots of pain seeing pictures of people being humiliated, it could be me, it could be anyone of you.
governments must take reprisals against this.
but i also want to remember all of you, that at this moment, lots of people are seuffering war consequences, they're being hit, smacked and pissed off.
let's all fight peacefully against this :(

So, I'm pretty sure that one of the male soldiers in one of the pictures told the press that he was ordered to take a smiling picture with a naked POW. If he's telling the truth and not just trying to get his ass out of trouble I am even more disturbed by all of this.

The whole thing is just really disheartening...not to mention that these images are so powerful that they will most likely diminish whatever positive reputation the US has managed to build during the course of this war. If anyone overseas actually thought of us as liberators...they must have changed their minds by now.

I am truly disturbed about this. I don't know if this fits into debate, but, I had to get that off my chest :(

from my experiences in third world countries and war zones i really don't see what the fuss is about. Yes what happened is vile and people should be punished but much worse things happen and there is little or no coverage eg South Africa have reelected their goverement even though all this government has do is to make a subclaa of africans who are super rich, while others starve. the reason why they were reelected was that there was no 'black' opposition party (i wonder why).
Mugabe has suddenly disappeared from the news even though he is causing more deaths than any dictator in the last 50 years.
Afganistan has been forgoten even though coalition forces left the country in ruins (even worse than before the war). Yet they have to rebuild their country themselves..........

the list goes on forever. The torture of innocent prisoners is wrong but there is so much else.....

So, I'm pretty sure that one of the male soldiers in one of the pictures told the press that he was ordered to take a smiling picture with a naked POW. If he's telling the truth and not just trying to get his ass out of trouble I am even more disturbed by all of this.

The whole thing is just really disheartening...not to mention that these images are so powerful that they will most likely diminish whatever positive reputation the US has managed to build during the course of this war. If anyone overseas actually thought of us as liberators...they must have changed their minds by now.

I am truly disturbed about this. I don't know if this fits into debate, but, I had to get that off my chest :(

Very well said stroke. I have a feeling that later of the photos will be the worse. What we did was wrong and someone needs to be held accountable. If Rumsfeld has to step down on his own accord, then so be it. I am not one that wants the President or the Senate to relieve him. I think that he has done an excellent job as Sec of Def. but with a issue this horrific, a statement needs to be made. If Rumsfeld steps down, it is to save face with the world. Should he? I am at a cross road with the issue.

I can only hope that a high ranking military person didn't do this with a politicial purpose in mind. i.e. "Let's destroy the reputation of the US even more by ordering soliders to torture POWs so when it gets out, it will hurt Bush's re-election chances." Is that waht happened? I hope not. Do I put it past a radical person who has an agenda? No. If it boils down to "the ordering of this to be done," then I would dig deep into the person who ordered it and find thier motive. I hope and pray that military leaders would not do this and that it was just a screwup on several young soldier's judgement.

Also, this could have happened under anyone's Presidency. Please don't start blaming this on Bush. You know as well as I do that he had nothing to do with it. As I said in earlier posts, I am not one to run party lines. When the republicans were giving Clinton such a hard time, I was angry because Clinton had to defend himself instead of run the country. Let's not make this a Bush issue. It isn't.

tMR

just thought id post this for you all to see

UK troops have killed Iraqi civilians including an eight-year-old girl when they were under no apparent threat, Amnesty International has claimed.


The human rights group claims in "many" cases the deaths of civilians caused by UK troops had not been investigated.

Inquiries were "secretive" and handled by Military Police, its report says.

The claims are the latest in a string of allegations about the behaviour of coalition forces but ministers say many of them are already being investigated.

Separately on Tuesday the High Court ruled that relatives of 12 Iraqis allegedly killed by UK troops will get a full court hearing into the decision not to hold independent inquiries. The families want to have the deaths declared a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights, but the UK government says the convention does not apply in Iraq. the rest of the article can be read here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3701351.stm)
whether you are for or against the war and torture, you cant say that doesnt make you feel sick? an innocent 8 year old? whether its true or not, the thought of a soldier shooting someone as young as that dead makes my stomach go all funny :(

I hope and pray that military leaders would not do this and that it was just a screwup on several young soldier's judgement.

Also, this could have happened under anyone's Presidency. Please don't start blaming this on Bush. You know as well as I do that he had nothing to do with it. As I said in earlier posts, I am not one to run party lines. When the republicans were giving Clinton such a hard time, I was angry because Clinton had to defend himself instead of run the country. Let's not make this a Bush issue. It isn't.

tMR

Did I do that? If I did, it wasn't intentional, I was trying to be as apolitical as possible. I think this is a strictly military issue. It hasn't got anything to do with politics that some soldiers stepped way over the line.

Did I do that? If I did, it wasn't intentional, I was trying to be as apolitical as possible. I think this is a strictly military issue. It hasn't got anything to do with politics that some soldiers stepped way over the line.

I agree , this shouldnt be a political issue at all. Unfortunately, like alot of things , the left is making it political...

just thought id post this for you all to see

the rest of the article can be read here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3701351.stm)
whether you are for or against the war and torture, you cant say that doesnt make you feel sick? an innocent 8 year old? whether its true or not, the thought of a soldier shooting someone as young as that dead makes my stomach go all funny :(

Yeah, I saw that on the news. Now I'm so sure these soldiers are 'just a few bad apples'

Why the hell should the US be apologizing for how these assholes were treated...yea...it wasn't right. BUT...*sarcastic* OH NO!! We HUMILIATED the poor assholes...who as far as I'm concerned are lower than dirt and not even human...while our guys are over there...US guys who are not even in the military are being taken and brutally and sadisticly murdered and tourtured FOR NOTHING!! And the US is suppose to say SORRY to them?!?!?! Thats a freaking joke...and when I heard what those fuckers did to that innocent guy from Penn....decapitating him and torturing him for NOTHING...I feel sick to my stomach and wanna kill all those sick shits myself....this has gotten absurd. As selfish as it sounds...why cant the US just protect its own people for'a change, instead of trying to look like the "Good guy" to everyone else and helping everyone else while our guys are dying for nothing....I'm sorry for this post...I'm just really angry about this all today....and the only people i feel sorry for ...are the poor families who have now lost loved ones to this....and the innocent people that have suffered. Whens it just gonna end :(

love,
Shelby

Why the hell should the US be apologizing for how these assholes were treated...yea...it wasn't right. BUT...*sarcastic* OH NO!! We HUMILIATED the poor assholes...who as far as I'm concerned are lower than dirt and not even human...while our guys are over there...US guys who are not even in the military are being taken and brutally and sadisticly murdered and tourtured FOR NOTHING!!

Much like how the British are killing civilians? I'm sure Americans have likewise killed many civilians. Every time we do kill one, they blast it on their media, just like our media does for us.

And the US is suppose to say SORRY to them?!?!?!

Ever hear that old saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Thats a freaking joke...and when I heard what those fuckers did to that innocent guy from Penn....decapitating him and torturing him for NOTHING...

They had as much reason as Hitler did during WW II, or American with the atomic bomb, or the KKK has, or like the Serbs and Bolivia, notice a pattern? Most people in war stop looking at civilian and military, and start seeing us and them.

this has gotten absurd. As selfish as it sounds...why cant the US just protect its own people for'a change, instead of trying to look like the "Good guy" to everyone else and helping everyone else while our guys are dying for nothing....

Damn right, I'm waiting for someone important to just throw his hands up and exclaim, "YEAH, We fucking tried, say goodbye to Earth." However I think their main worry about just off and killing people would be two major things:
1) America is great and free, going off and killing people would cause small revolts more than likely.
2) Money. If we kill them we'd piss off many parts of the world, and they'd stop doing business with us. Their allies would stop doing business with us. We're capitalists.

I'm sorry for this post...I'm just really angry about this all today....and the only people i feel sorry for ...are the poor families who have now lost loved ones to this....and the innocent people that have suffered. Whens it just gonna end :(

Maybe when both sides grow up and look for better answers. War is childish.

Edit: It's an unwritten rule of war: the wars always have to sound nice no matter how stupid the reasons.

I respect your opinion, and I agree that war is childish...and all it does is kill innocent people...but with the "two wrongs don't make a right" comment...yes, the way the Iraqis were treated was not right...but the disguting and unhuman like things they have done and continue to do to innocent American ppl...who are not even in the military (even though what they do to our guys in the military is equally disgusting)...they capture and do sick and cruel things, torture and KILL them...it does not even compare. Both things are wrong, but...I think its ridiculous that they are so "upset" and "offended" after all the horrible things they have done and are doing to Americans. We don't owe them anything, especially an apology. This whole thing is a nightmare...and its turned into a political issue...everyone is so worried about their image in the gov. that they don't care that innocent guys are being killed in horrific ways because of it....this war is ridiculous and I really do think the US needs to grow some balls and just do whats best for the ppl here and stop trying to help everyone else first for a change...sounds horrible, but thats what this whole thing has made me feel....

shelby

I respect your opinion, and I agree that war is childish...and all it does is kill innocent people...but with the "two wrongs don't make a right" comment...yes, the way the Iraqis were treated was not right...but the disguting and unhuman like things they have done and continue to do to innocent American ppl...who are not even in the military (even though what they do to our guys in the military is equally disgusting)...they capture and do sick and cruel things, torture and KILL them...it does not even compare.
shelby
it does not even compare? it's just the same. okay, if i kill you, you kill me back? oh god, that's like little selfish three year old boys.

this war is ridiculous and I really do think the US needs to grow some balls and just do whats best for the ppl here and stop trying to help everyone else first for a change...


please remember that the Iraq war was to clean off the map massive destruction weapons (although they're like wally, they never appear) and also for petrol (please don't cheat yourselves). USA isn't a country of fools, they've always helped other countries to get something, or to prevent theirselves of an attack.

we, as modern and rich countries have to help the poor ones, believe me, every spoonful i eat makes me feel reaaly bad about the billions of people dying of starvation. it isn't fair that 30% of the world countries own 70% of the world resources.


btw, today i saw some new pics that made me freak, that fucking female soldier with the leash on her hand and putting "oh yeah!" faces pointing to the prisoners' balls, and then she was talking as if she was proud of it, blah, stupid girl. aww. and it also scared the hell out of me the vid of the american being head cut. in what fucking world do we leave? *jumps to another galaxy*

I respect your opinion, and I agree that war is childish...and all it does is kill innocent people...but with the "two wrongs don't make a right" comment...yes, the way the Iraqis were treated was not right...but the disguting and unhuman like things they have done and continue to do to innocent American ppl...who are not even in the military (even though what they do to our guys in the military is equally disgusting)...they capture and do sick and cruel things, torture and KILL them...it does not even compare. Both things are wrong, but...I think its ridiculous that they are so "upset" and "offended" after all the horrible things they have done and are doing to Americans. We don't owe them anything, especially an apology. This whole thing is a nightmare...and its turned into a political issue...everyone is so worried about their image in the gov. that they don't care that innocent guys are being killed in horrific ways because of it....this war is ridiculous and I really do think the US needs to grow some balls and just do whats best for the ppl here and stop trying to help everyone else first for a change...sounds horrible, but thats what this whole thing has made me feel....

shelby

The Iraqi's retaliated to their people being tortured by torturing another one. There may be some, but no complete justification for either side. I don't believe there is a right or wrong side, just that this war should stop. People complain about killings, but are still for the war? (Not talking about you, btw) I don't get it :confused: Oh well. Haven't the Americans and British done their job? They've got Saddam, haven't they? They should all leave, obviously the Iraqi soldiers don't want help. We offered it, but if they don't want it at least we can say we tried.

People don't want to lose their pride, and that's a something many are willing to die for.

Thats whats scary about these people , there not afraid to die , they welcome it...

Thats whats scary about these people , there not afraid to die , they welcome it...


Exactly! As far as they're concerned they are going to a "Nirvana" after death....

It's something we will never understand just as our way of life and fighting for the freedom is something they will never understand.

Exactly! As far as they're concerned they are going to a "Nirvana" after death....


...as they have nothing and can't do nothing on this world... got promises of EVERYTHING in Heaven. 10,000 beautiful virgins are expecting muslim martyrs fallen in the battlefields who might making love to all of them EVERYDAY... yay... :rolleyes:

Are u serious? You think the fact that a few young (and yes I think they were stupid to do this, even though I can see WHY they did it in a way...) American soilders humiliated some piece of dirt terrorists...and the fact that they have tortured and brutally KILLED innocent Americans, some of which have NOTHING to do with the war like this poor guy who was decapitated, is equally bad? Sorry if I disagree...the terrorists and people like them are not PEOPLE as far as I'm concerned. Their whole way of life is uncivilized ...but I do agree that the Americans over there should get out. You know when you hear a news story about how some person was killed by another person for no reason...don't you ever put yourself in the place of the victim's family and friends? You would probably want to find whoever killed your loved one and beat the shit out of them yourself! Thats why I can sort of see why those American soilders did what they did....it was NOT right...but after all those terrorists have done...I can sort of see why they did it. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...

Love,
Shelby

and the fact that they have tortured and brutally KILLED innocent Americans, they have killed innocent people from other countries too!

Why the hell should the US be apologizing for how these assholes were treated...yea...it wasn't right. BUT...*sarcastic* OH NO!! We HUMILIATED the poor assholes...who as far as I'm concerned are lower than dirt and not even human...while our guys are over there...US guys who are not even in the military are being taken and brutally and sadisticly murdered and tourtured FOR NOTHING!! And the US is suppose to say SORRY to them?!?!?! Thats a freaking joke...and when I heard what those fuckers did to that innocent guy from Penn....decapitating him and torturing him for NOTHING...I feel sick to my stomach and wanna kill all those sick shits myself....this has gotten absurd. As selfish as it sounds...why cant the US just protect its own people for'a change, instead of trying to look like the "Good guy" to everyone else and helping everyone else while our guys are dying for nothing....I'm sorry for this post...I'm just really angry about this all today....and the only people i feel sorry for ...are the poor families who have now lost loved ones to this....and the innocent people that have suffered. Whens it just gonna end :(

love,
Shelby
Thats just it. In the eyes of of the Executioner they had a reason too. And frankly im not surprised something like this has happened. CBS is responsible for Nick Bergs death either way you look at it. If CBS would have stfu and thought before they aired such material( pics of iraqis being abused) KNOWING what these people can do and actually enjoy doing it Nick Berg might be alive today. BUT cbs needed rateings and felt they werent doing a good job so they aired those photos. I hate it for the people both americans and iraqis in the photos but whats done is done. CBS killed Nick Berg. Once they admit that things will get better. Something tells me that more executions of Americans are just around the corner. I do not blame Bush or the his cabinet for Nicks Death. Infact take a note of this because youll NEVER hear me say this again... Im standing behind Bush and Rumsfeild on this whole Abuse scandal/Nick Bergs death.

they have killed innocent people from other countries too!

not like this...these people are uncivilized and freakin nuts. For example...say a girl gets raped, they believe that its her fault...so they have the father kill her because shes "dirty" like its her fault she was raped...they call it an "honor killing". They use women and children as blockades and strap bombs to them...things like THAT show just how cruel and disgusting these people are...what I don't think Bush realizes is that these people, like otheres on the board have said...DON'T think like we do. Their ways of life are completely archaic, and it's obviously never going to change...so they should just get the Americans out of there before more lives are lost cuz of these psychos. I still don't believe what the American's did vs the iraqis is equal...both were wrong granted...but theres no way you can compare humiliation to a brutal murder. And to say that this was in any way "retaliation for how their stupid ass ppl were treated" is bullshit....remember when those 4 Americans security guards were killed, drug through the strees of Iraq, burned up, then hung from a bridge...what was that for? This was before the terrorists were "mistreated" here...they're sick and I'm sorry...those terrorists deserved to be mistreated...they brought it on themselves...then again it does make Americans look lower, but I can totally see why it happened.

not like this...these people are uncivilized and freakin nuts. For example...say a girl gets raped, they believe that its her fault...so they have the father kill her because shes "dirty" like its her fault she was raped...they call it an "honor killing". They use women and children as blockades and strap bombs to them...things like THAT show just how cruel and disgusting these people are...what I don't think Bush realizes is that these people, like otheres on the board have said...DON'T think like we do. Their ways of life are completely archaic, and it's obviously never going to change...so they should just get the Americans out of there before more lives are lost cuz of these psychos. I still don't believe what the American's did vs the iraqis is equal...both were wrong granted...but theres no way you can compare humiliation to a brutal murder. And to say that this was in any way "retaliation for how their stupid ass ppl were treated" is bullshit....remember when those 4 Americans security guards were killed, drug through the strees of Iraq, burned up, then hung from a bridge...what was that for? This was before the terrorists were "mistreated" here...they're sick and I'm sorry...those terrorists deserved to be mistreated...they brought it on themselves...then again it does make Americans look lower, but I can totally see why it happened.i dont know if you misunderstood what i said...but what i meant is that the terrorists have killed innocent people from other countrys too...not just america, i think it was an italian man they shot not so long ago. and i think its gonna get a hell of a lot worse with the iraqi church leaders allowing iraqi soldiers to make coliation women prisoners into sex slaves.
and i dont agree with american soldiers torturing iraqi prisoners and i dont think bush was ever sorry about it, as he has known about it since january. and i agree with you on the "retaliation for how their stupid ass ppl were treated" bit, because i reckon they still would have killed him anyway because he was american, but i still think that the torturing iraqis thing made the iraqis madder because it was a woman who mainly appeared in the photos.. do i make sense

Are u serious? You think the fact that a few young (and yes I think they were stupid to do this, even though I can see WHY they did it in a way...) American soilders humiliated some piece of dirt terrorists...and the fact that they have tortured and brutally KILLED innocent Americans, some of which have NOTHING to do with the war like this poor guy who was decapitated, is equally bad?
Love,
Shelby
babe, are you sure that all the prisoners were guilty? just look at guantanamo, half of the people that are in there are innocent.
both parts are being wrong in some way, and i agree with u in the sense that religion is making extremists archaic. and please, don't put all muslims together.

I didn't mean to group all muslims together...I just mean the terrorists and those involved with the sick killings. Ugh...this makes my head hurt to think about anymore. I guess all I want, as everyone else, is for it to end. Its just when I hear about fellow Americans getting killed over there and the horrible ways they are killed...it makes me really angry...its just senseless. Sorry if I misunderstood your post Tazzy...my bad. (Ps.... love ur Johnny Depp pix ;) *Le drool*)

Love,
shelby

I didn't mean to group all muslims together...I just mean the terrorists and those involved with the sick killings. Ugh...this makes my head hurt to think about anymore. I guess all I want, as everyone else, is for it to end. Its just when I hear about fellow Americans getting killed over there and the horrible ways they are killed...it makes me really angry...its just senseless. Sorry if I misunderstood your post Tazzy...my bad. (Ps.... love ur Johnny Depp pix ;) *Le drool*)

Love,
shelby

I read your previous posts...but how do you know the Iraqis who were tortured actually did all the stuff you said they did? Like killing rape victims and dragging those Americans through the streets? And who says they're terrorists? I can understand where you're coming from, but those aren't the reasons the Iraqis were abused for. Well not as far as I know. Apparently 'they were acting on orders'. And like I said before, the Iraqi's did that thing (the killing, maiming and dragging through the streets of those four American security guards) BECAUSE they don't want them there. To them, they really aren't supposed to be there.

I read your previous posts...but how do you know the Iraqis who were tortured actually did all the stuff you said they did? Like killing rape victims and dragging those Americans through the streets? And who says they're terrorists? I can understand where you're coming from, but those aren't the reasons the Iraqis were abused for. Well not as far as I know. Apparently 'they were acting on orders'. And like I said before, the Iraqi's did that thing (the killing, maiming and dragging through the streets of those four American security guards) BECAUSE they don't want them there. To them, they really aren't supposed to be there.

The ones "humiliated" were terrorists...and by going what you said....then those terrorists shouldn't be here either...right? I didn't say those people specifically did those things...I'm just trying to show the mentality of some of those people...they do things like that and I know because I've read and continue to read about it in the news daily just like everyone else.

...as they have nothing and can't do nothing on this world... got promises of EVERYTHING in Heaven. 10,000 beautiful virgins are expecting muslim martyrs fallen in the battlefields who might making love to all of them EVERYDAY... yay... :rolleyes:

10,000 beautiful virgins? The only place that would have that many virgins is heaven. Or Utah. Not sure if they are beautiful though. i kid i kid

Just another thought that you thought I would never say. Never let them see you drive your grandmother's Oldsmobile Delta 88.

tMR

...as they have nothing and can't do nothing on this world... got promises of EVERYTHING in Heaven. 10,000 beautiful virgins are expecting muslim martyrs fallen in the battlefields who might making love to all of them EVERYDAY... yay...Just to clear something up the Quran doesnt actually say anything about virgins. Thats just a little detail added by fundamentalists. The Quran says that people who die in the Jihad go to paradise and get to pick a couple of dozen people to join them in heaven when they die. The whole thing about virgins is just a little twist added by extremists (sp?) to make the whole martyr thing more appealing to little teenage boys. thats the thing with these extremists. they claim to be fighting for their religion but if they were so damn religious they would know that the Quran says fighting can take place but only as a last resort. fighting should only be in defence and its aim should be to restore peace and freedom.

EDIT: I just seen this. Daily Mirror editor Piers Morgan has been sacked following pressure over faked photos of soldiers abusing an Iraqi prisoner.


The Queen's Lancashire Regiment earlier told a press conference the Mirror had to apologise for running the pictures and endangering British troops.

A statement from the Mirror said it had fallen victim to a "calculated and malicious hoax". The Mirror board said it would be "inappropriate" for Morgan to continue.

Speaking to journalists on Friday morning, Morgan had been bullish, saying he would not resign. But in a news conference in Preston on Friday afternoon, the regiment demonstrated to reporters the aspects of uniform and equipment which it said proved the photographs were fake. the whole article can be seen here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3716151.stm this article has messed up all my thoughts. fake pictures? that is fucking SICK :mad:

EDIT: I just seen this. the whole article can be seen here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3716151.stm this article has messed up all my thoughts. fake pictures? that is fucking SICK :mad:

Anything for news. Which brings another point. Should we believe everything that is reported? Technically we can't know the real truth unless we were there ourselves. So although media is informative, we shouldn't react to it full force.

Anything for news. Which brings another point. Should we believe everything that is reported? Technically we can't know the real truth unless we were there ourselves. So although media is informative, we shouldn't react to it full force.i agree. but apparently there were witnesses, which is why alot of people chose to believe the pictures. it just shows that we cant even trust the witnesses fully either. i would love to know the motives behind the people that hoaxed the whole thing because, as hard as i try, i really cant understand why anyone would do this.

i agree. but apparently there were witnesses, which is why alot of people chose to believe the pictures. it just shows that we cant even trust the witnesses fully either. i would love to know the motives behind the people that hoaxed the whole thing because, as hard as i try, i really cant understand why anyone would do this.

For news. Money. Why else? I suppose it wasn't relly hard to believe because of the Americans abusive pictures as well. But then again, can we really trust those pictures as well?

The Iraqi soldiers are really the enemy.
Not really. I dunno what it's like to be in the army, but I'm pretty damn sure that most soldiers don't enjoy real wars. I know I wouldn't. But they are forced to fight by the government. And if your country is ruled by a cruel dictator, you'd think twice before turning against him, or even surrendering. Most soldiers are just as innocent as civilians.

The torture of Iraqui prisoners was wrong. Regardless of where the impetus came from (ie orders from the chain of command, or stupidity and callousness by a few soldiers) It ruins our credibility by lowering us to the same level as those Iraquis who abused prisoners in the same prison before we got there.

I'm not sure that I believe the first guy who is saying that it was all the fault of the soldiers. I think he is bieng coerced into denying that his superiors had anything to do with it. I do think that part of the chain of command new about it and possibly ordered it. The problem is, that the military does have rules that say that if a higher ranking officer orders you to do something that you know is wrong, it is your duty to disobey that order. However, there are rules and then there is reality. By choosing to disobey an order the soldier can face retaliation (whether or not it is legal, I'm sure it happens.) I believe that the other soldiers involved were afraid to defy orders from their superiors. Then again, I wasn't there, so this is all just speculation.

The only place that would have that many virgins is ../.. Utah ../..
tMR

It's b/c they're really ugly

nor

b/c they're LDS? :confused:

It's b/c they're really ugly

nor

b/c they're LDS? :confused:
I hope they're just ugly.

AP article on prison abuse artwork (http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTB2MnQzaTZwBF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAN2NTAEd G1wbAN2NTAtaWU-/s/193628)

This is amazing. Some artist decides to paint about the prison abuse scandal, and gets punched in the eye for it. Is this such an emotional issue?

That is horrible. She got punched just for painting? We live in a fucked up world, we do.

Slightly different from the topic, but all in the same abuse/torture topic.

Today, there were very graphic pictures and video tape that leaked that showed US troops burning the dead bodies of Taliban soldiers...here's the story from CNN.com...

U.S. State Dept: Video 'very troubling'
U.S. Army, Afghanistan probe alleged desecration of Taliban bodies
Thursday, October 20, 2005; Posted: 6:16 p.m. EDT (22:16 GMT)
(CNN) -- The U.S. military and the Afghan government say they are investigating allegations that U.S. soldiers desecrated the bodies of dead Taliban fighters by burning them.

The U.S. military said Thursday it found the claims "repugnant" and that the Army's Criminal Investigation Division would investigate an Australian television report that included the allegations. Video footage from the report purportedly shows U.S. soldiers standing by the burning corpses of two suspected Taliban fighters with their bodies laid out, facing Mecca.

A spokesman for Afghan President Hamid Karzai added that his government had launched its own probe into the alleged desecration. (Watch the video that launched the investigation -- 3:06)

"We strongly condemn any disrespect to human bodies regardless of whether they are those of enemies or friends," spokesman Karim Rahimi told The Associated Press.

Islam traditionally forbids the cremation or embalming of corpses.

Australia's SBS television network broadcast the footage Wednesday. It included a propaganda message taunting Taliban fighters to retrieve their dead and fight. The footage was filmed in the hills outside the southern village of Gonbaz near the former Taliban stronghold of Kandahar, AP said.

SBS said the footage was taken by freelance journalist Stephen Dupont, who told AP he was embedded with the 173rd Airborne Brigade of the U.S. Army earlier this month. Dupont said the burnings occurred on October 1.

U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack called the video "very troubling." He said that U.S. embassies around the world have been instructed to make clear that such actions do not represent the values of the United States or its military.

McCormack stated that the United States has acted to "liberate and defend" Muslims around the world in places like Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan, and has provided humanitarian aid to Pakistan -- a Muslim ally.

The video is likely to complicate the goodwill mission of Undersecretary for Public Diplomacy, Karen Hughes, who is traveling in Asia.

McCormack said the State Department's response would come from Hughes' office.

U.S. military probe
In a statement issued Thursday from the Afghan capital, Kabul, U.S. Maj. Gen. Jason Kamiya, Combined Joint Task Force-76 Commander, said: "This command takes all allegations of misconduct or inappropriate behavior seriously and has directed an investigation into circumstances surrounding this allegation.

"This command does not condone the mistreatment of enemy combatants or the desecration of their religious and cultural beliefs," he said.

"This alleged action is repugnant to our common values, is contrary to our command's approved tactical operating procedures, and is not sanctioned by this command.

"Our efforts to thoroughly investigate this allegation are a reflection of our commitment to the government of Afghanistan and the Afghan people."

If the allegations are substantiated, Kamiya said, "the appropriate course of action ... and corrective action will be taken."

U.S. Central Command also issued a release, saying, "Under no circumstances does U.S. Central Command condone the desecration, abuse or inappropriate treatment of enemy combatants," the release said.

The U.S. military operation in Afghanistan started a month after the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States. It ousted the Taliban government that harbored the al Qaeda terror network responsible for those attacks.

Fighting in the country has persisted, particularly along and near the Afghan-Pakistani border, where remnants of the Taliban have endured over the years.

There's a side of me that says that this is disgraceful, but the other side of me says that this type of thing doesn't surprise me.

I mean, Hello, it's a war! People die and this is shit that is happening on BOTH sides. I'm not saying it's right either way, but in a war there are no rules and there's pretty much no such thing as humanity.