Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in the following reading are not my own. They are from a pamphlet I received at school one day.

Why does God allow war? In the wake of 9/11 and the daily threat of terror, this question has become disturbingly urgent, first on a national level but also in the events of our everyday lives. War was not part of what we had expected, not what we wanted for our children, not part of our plan for the future. Yet in a sense it is surprising that we are taken by surprise. Every generation from the beginning of time has experienced the scourge of war, and so it shall be until the end of the age. "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars," Jesus warned. "For nation will rise again nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes..." (Matthew 24:6-7)

We know that God is in control of what happens in this world. We are even told that He rules over all the kingdoms of the nations and that power and might are in His hands so that no one can withstand Him (2 Chronicles 20:6) If God has this power, why would He allow something as gruesome and devastating as war?

More than sixty years ago, at a time when the world stood on the brink of the Nazi Holocaust, a British preacher named Martyn Lloyd-Jones grappled with this very question. He concluded from his study of the Bible that "the ultimate cause of war is lust and desire; this restlessness that is part of us as the result of sin." He went on to say war is the large-scale effect and consequence of the same tendency we see in ourselves to be jealous, or to lie, or to hold a grudge--in other words, our tendency to sin. To put it simply, war is the result of sin. God allows war as a reminder of the horror of sin and a wake-up call to seek forgiveness and justice and peace. As Lloyd-Jones put it:

"The question that needs to be asked is not "Why does God allow war?" but rather "Why does God not allow the world to destroy itself entirely in its iniquity and its sin? Why does He in His restraining grace set a limit to evil and to sin, and a bound beyond which they cannot pass?" Oh, the amazing patience of God with this sinful world! How wondrous is His love! He has sent the Son of His love to our world to die for us and to save us; and because men cannot and will not see this, He permits and allows such things as war to chastise and to punish us; to teach us, and to convict us of our sins; and, above all, to call us to repentance and acceptance of His gracious offer. The vital question for us therefore is not to ask, "Why does God allow war?" The question for us is the make sure that we are learning the lesson, and repenting before God for the sin in our own hearts, and in the entire human race, which leads to such results."

As we face the smoldering threat of terror, the prospect of global war, of personal suffering and tragedy, we must remember that while God allows the sinfulness of humanity to run its natural course, He also provides a way to be saved--His Son, Jesus Christ. We each have a choice. We can reject Christ and live with the consequence of our sin for all eternity, or we can trust Christ and believe that He paid for our sins when He died on the cross. John 3:18 tells us that "whoever believes in [Christ] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." If you have never trusted Christ, believe in Him and pray for forgiveness. Although suffering will always be part of life in this world, you can know that "for those who love God all things work together for good" (Romans 8:28). Even the pain and sorrow of this life are "preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison" (2 Corinthians 4:17).

If you have already trusted Christ but are reminded of sin in your life, ask God to forgive you once again. If war should do anything, it should motivate God's people to repent and to pray! We can repent of our individual sin, of sin in the church, and of sin in our nation and world. We can seek God's forgiveness and healing. We can pray with grave concern and great confidence to God our Father in Heaven, who is sovereign over all the affairs of men. In the face of terror and war, we can fervently seek God's mercy for ourselves and for all those who have yet to believe.

We may never understand completely why God allows such suffering on earth. But those who have entrusted their lives to Christ can look forward with confidence to the time of Christ's return, when God will establish His Kingdom on earth, restoring justice, bringing and end to evil. God gives us His promise to strengthen our hearts until that glorious day when "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4)

Respond as you wish. ;)

*buys 10-foot pole so he can not touch this thread with it*

*buys 10-foot pole so he can not touch this thread with it*
<----- already has 10-foot pole ;)

<----- already has 10-foot pole ;)

Liar...pfft...you can't fork anybody with a pole :p

Liar...pfft...you can't fork anybody with a pole :p
You can if it's sharp on the right end.

lol come on you guys... the topic at hand isnt ten foot forking poles. if you dont want to reply here, reply on my lj. its posted there, too.

... This thread is asking why an imaginary guy/entity allows war to happen. o.O...

lol come on you guys... the topic at hand isnt ten foot forking poles. if you dont want to reply here, reply on my lj. its posted there, too.
Oh c'mon haven't you learned anything about the power-hungry mods here? We are internet bullies and we can overtake your thread if we wish! If you don't believe me, then just ask a noob!

Well being serious for a moment, in order for you to understand why God allows war, you have to understand that everything that happens, happens for a reason.

For every war period, there's a peacetime period.

There's a sense of balancing out.

We've had an ongoing operation for only 2 and a half years. A short period of time in the scheme of things. It could last longer and it could end tomorrow. We really don't know.

But I believe that everything happens for a reason. Whether you're religious or non-religious.

For every war period, there's a peacetime period.

There's a sense of balancing out.




someone has been watching a little too much matrix trilogy ;)

... This thread is asking why an imaginary guy/entity allows war to happen. o.O...

Well see... you've started out wrong here by stating as fact that a diety in which a large amount of people believe in is imaginary. If you are firmly convinced of that, then this thread isn't for you. To enter the debate you must realize and be willing to accept people's ideas about their basic religious structure, if only for the sake of argument.

*Touches thread with 10 foot pole*

someone has been watching a little too much matrix trilogy ;)

So then I guess my hiring manager telling me that I kind of look like Laurence Fishburne is true :-/

Let me guess. Jehova's Witnesses gave you that?

i think she just told me it was a christian group at her school

Then, i'll leave in a peice of my religious/godness to argue this subject.

I dont think God laid out the plans for each individual person, completely.
I think God made us like toys, wound us up, and let us go. Or a clockmaker- just makes the clock, winds it, and lets it go.
If I wind a clock, I don't INTENTIONALLY let it break or explode randomly. It just does. Same with people.

There my, viewpoint.

What I meant by that imaginary guy thing was that no one can really speak for god and have other people beleive- its as if its a little kid, listening to their imaginary/invisible friend, and relaying the message to his other little friends saying "Oh yeah, well...invisible bob here thinks that we should play a game."

ToB, there's a stamp on the back of it with the address of the church. They call themselves the Jesus First Ministries. I don't think they're Jehovas Witnesses.

And nicely put Caleb.

Carry on.

Cuz God sed so!1 omgz

Well, I don't know why he allows war to happen. I don't know if there's anybody there to allow anything at all. If christians believe God is this super-powerful ultimate perfect peaceful being then he shouldn't allow war, isn't that right? But I guess there's the whole free will thing. If people were completely perfect, there might not be any wars at all. But that sentence in on itself is so ridiculous that I can't even understand why I'm discussing this. Nothing is ever that simple, God or not. People decide for themselves. Sometimes people are stupid. I don't think it says anywhere in the bible that "if you're fucking stupid I'll cut your head off and you'll stop being stupid, dammit" and so people continue to be stupid. Ask God why, if you believe in him.

I'm not stating whether or not I believe in God. I don't necessarily believe in the christian God, but I think there's some being out there. I just don't think s/he/it meddles so much into people's lives. We make our own mistakes.

All of that is beside the fact though...we are not discussing whether or not there is a God. This debate exists on the assumption there is a God..any arguments henceforth are just on why he/she would allow war.

Oops, sorry, I guess I missed the point a bit :o

I think I believe in the balance thing somebody mentioned. Also, change is important and war often brings change and improvements to something, like racial issues etc, even if it does take time. Maybe that's why God sees it important to let wars happen.

war is a powerful catalyst for change and necessary for the social evolution of man... Don't get me wrong I am not necessarily in favor of war infact I am opposed to the one we are currently publically(I'm sure were also fighting the not so good fight in dirty little hot spots about the world just not putting it on CNN) involved in but theres nothing like a war to shake things up a bit and give people a new spin on things....

Why does God allow war? Because God is not omnipotent.

Because God gave us free will.

Non-Christians, you are perfectly welcome to ignore this entire post, with my thanks.

Mbmanus, exactly. We have free will. But why would God give us such a terrible thing as free will? Here's an example of the good side of free will.

For those of you who know the story of Job: If God had not given Job free will to do as he wished, there would have been nothing remarkable about Job praising God through his terrible circumstances. But since Job had the ability, through free will, to curse God, it is quite amazing and praiseworthy that he did not do so.

Free will can definitely been seen as both negative and positive. Without it, we would never have fallen from grace. We would be forever united to God without sin or death. BUT without free will, we would not be able to appreciate the things we had. We would be, in the truest sense, the slaves of God, not his jubilant, compliant servants.

Now, to the bigger question: Why does God allow war?

Sometimes, there are good and just reasons for war. The war against Hitler, for instance, was just because it liberated those who were oppressed by him. There is still the question in this case, however, of WHY God allowed Hitler to be so evil. That answer, too, lies in free will. Ever since the Fall, people have been evil. Remember, the third human being killed his brother. Murder's a great way to start off the human race. free will + fallen human nature = bad

To me, God has a plan that we can't even conceive of. We cannot screw up God's plan, no matter how hard we try. God doesn't see time like we do. To us, time is a bunch of points plotted into a straight line, while God is present at all times with no concept of time. Therefore, he knows everything that is going to happen, because to him it has already happened. Everything that happens was foreknown, though not predestined. And God worked all of these things into his plan. If you will, we are dots of paint on a canvas, so we cannot see the big picture.

Why does God allow war? Because everything does happen for a reason. We should not marvel that we do not always understand. Our minds are limited to the finite world, while God's mind is infinite. We ought not elevate ourselves to the place of God by trying to understand something that we are so incapable of ever understanding.

By the way, I believe that God is omnipotent. Just because he does not act when you think he should, does not mean that he was supposed to act. This is the problem that I have been addressing. None of us dots of paint can really comprehend the infinite "big picture", so there is no way of knowing what might have happened if he had acted.

<3 Mary

I question what the point of existence is at all if we aren't in control of our lives. We would have no true understanding of how good things can really be if we have no negativity to relate it to. We have free will to choose our actions throughout life and that's why we can do bad things. It's part of our struggle in life to do the right thing so we can get into heaven rather than being cast into hell. (We've established that this is a Christian thread) If we were pre-programmed to either go to heaven or hell then we could do as we pleased and know that it wasn't going to change where we ended up. This lack of programming is exactly why we can choose to commit atrocities and engage in war. God would be doing us a disservice by limiting our will if it got too far out of bounds. Allowing bad things to happen is just another way I believe for God to let us prove ourselves and our commitment to Him in times of strife. If we have a goal to attain in our lives, then we must have something to try to move away from as well. The war and negativity in this world are the things we should be trying to move away from in order to approach what's right.

It always really annoyed me when people said "God can't exist because if He did and was so good then He wouldn't allow <insert bad thing here> to go on". To hell with that. If that was the case then he wouldn't have allowed you to be such a dumbass either.

And that was a good post from Mary. Good stuff there.

God?? What God?

Oh. .HIM!!!!! That guy, withthe big long beard up THERE. .

Wait. . didn't he have Armor and a Sword and live in Valhalla?

Or was it atop Mt. Olympus with all his kids and wives and such running around in robes and olive leaves..

Or perhaps it was in that dark Pit in the Center of the Earth laughing while everyone screams in anguish??

Hmm. . Why does God allow war??? Because he wants to see if we are actually stoopid enough to exterminate ourselves . . Call it Trial by Fire. . Call it Survival of the Fittest. . Call it Evolution . . Wait. . . if it's Evolution. . how can God have Created us???

Damn this is so confusing. . . . . .

But I bet he's laughing at us REALLY hard about this entire "War" thing .. We can't ever seem to get it right. . . .

Or maybe, God likes war.

Or doesn't like us and wants us to kill ourselves.

As Mary said, your God is ineffable and here we are trying to eff him (so to speak). Accepting that the God of the Cristian bible does exist, within the framework of understanding outlined in that text, then Mary is absolutely and utterly correct. God's plan would be for Him (her?) to know... and no amount of buggering about with arguments like this are gonna get you anywhere near closer to His (her?) truth.

Here's the news, Christians... This is what your FAITH is for. Your job is to get on with your lives and deal with whatever is thrown at you, be it war, famine, pestilence or death, and hope that by the end of it all you've lived according to your own rules as best as you can.

Trying to argue questions like this is really trying to do without your faith. As a Christian, you don't have that option.

Because God gave us free will.

*exactly*
20202020
20202020

As Mary said, your God is ineffable and here we are trying to eff him (so to speak).
*giggles* Exactly. I <33333333333333333 you.

<3 Mary

God doesnt allow war, it just happens. Just like people who are Satanists are like that because they want to be, NOT because God allowed them to be.

God doesnt allow war, it just happens. Just like people who are Satanists are like that because they want to be, NOT because God allowed them to be.

So would that fall under the category of free-will? It seems like you're really
just saying God allows people to do what they want because they have that
free-will, and that he doesn't interfere when it comes to that. And that's why
wars and crimes and stuff happen; We as humans have our own free-wills
that God doesn't mess with (even though he very well could), so we let our
pride and our evil things run rampant sometimes, and then conflicts happen,
and then pretty soon you're looking at a full-scale war. So once again it goes
back to the fact we all have free-wills that God cannot touch.

So would that fall under the category of free-will? It seems like you're really
just saying God allows people to do what they want because they have that
free-will, and that he doesn't interfere when it comes to that. And that's why
wars and crimes and stuff happen; We as humans have our own free-wills
that God doesn't mess with (even though he very well could), so we let our
pride and our evil things run rampant sometimes, and then conflicts happen,
and then pretty soon you're looking at a full-scale war. So once again it goes
back to the fact we all have free-wills that God cannot touch.

(sigh). . Look. . .For those who believe in God. . may I ask a quick, and rather unsettling question???

Whatever made you believe that ANY of us know Gods will or intention??? Or that ANY of us could interpret things on a Universal scale according to God's Will???

C'mon, folks. . we are aemoeba in the great pond of the Universe. . . If there IS a God. . who are WE to say what that god wants, desires, or intends for US??? Just my opinion (one reason I gave up becoming a Monk long ago. . . ) But that seems to be a VERY Arrogant stance for us mere Aemoebas. . . .

As for Why God allows war . . . who is to say it is not serving God's purpose???

If there IS a God. . who are WE to say what that god wants, desires, or intends for US??? Just my opinion (one reason I gave up becoming a Monk long ago. . . ) But that seems to be a VERY Arrogant stance for us mere Aemoebas. . . .

How about, God sent us the bible, and it details for us that we are free beings who should strive to follow his will, but we are certainly free to be bad at the same time. With consequences. Since we believe in God and that the bible is His word, we should believe what it says. He tells us His will in it quite plainly in most cases. We don't have to guess, and therefore we are not at all being arrogant.

How about, God sent us the bible, and it details for us that we are free beings who should strive to follow his will, but we are certainly free to be bad at the same time. With consequences. Since we believe in God and that the bible is His word, we should believe what it says. He tells us His will in it quite plainly in most cases. We don't have to guess, and therefore we are not at all being arrogant.

I agree with the free will thing. We have free will. He can't stop us. But my priest explained to me the other day that God knows us, he knows our personality, he knows our character, and therefore, he often knows what we will do. It'd be really hard to surprise God.

Anyway, since we have free will, we can do stupid things and he won't stop us. It makes me sad though.

Oh, and if you don't believe in God, don't bother replying to my post, since the thread assumes that you do. Or the point's moot.

How about, God sent us the bible, and it details for us that we are free beings who should strive to follow his will, but we are certainly free to be bad at the same time. With consequences. Since we believe in God and that the bible is His word, we should believe what it says. He tells us His will in it quite plainly in most cases. We don't have to guess, and therefore we are not at all being arrogant.


Which brings us back to the entire "Is God Real" argument. .

Which brings us back to the entire "Is God Real" argument. .

No it doesn't, that's not the subject at hand. Either debate the subject of the thread or move along.

God has nothing to do with war. He gave us free will, it would appear alot of people have used their free will to hurt others. Mostly in the pursuit of personal power, which seems to me to be the only real desire of humans, when you get down to it.

No it doesn't, that's not the subject at hand. Either debate the subject of the thread or move along.

Move along? MOI?

Diamon, the entire basis of this thread is that God allows war. So the question of God's purpose comes into play. Given that none of us know God's purpose (no, not even theologians or priests, sorry) we can come up with a Gazilliion haphazard reasonings about the "Why" of God's allowance of war. But, none of them would be accurate, since we do not understand "God". It's really much simpler to forget God, or the concept at least, and just do whatever we feel is righteous at the moment. Unfortunately, in order to feel guilt, compassion, or revulsion concerning War, one must have a certain certitude that there is actually a God. . otherwise those things we are taught as being Truth (according to Biblical reference) would become null and void, rendering the question of "WHY" to non-consequence.

"WHY" concerning God's purpose always comes back to Gods existence, for without one the other is impossible. God IS. . therefore Gods purpose IS. . and of course the opposite can apply. Whether we debate it or not is a moot point. Whether YOU are comfortable with your own belief, however, is very important, in which case Gods purpose in allowing war does not matter. .. the fact that God IS (or is not), should be enough for someone who believes (or disbelieves).

We have established in this thread that God exists. This should not come up at all here. So now He exists. The question is of His will. As a christian believer in God we believe that His word is laid out there for us in the bible. In it He seemingly clearly spells out for us that we are free to choose our decisions in life. Therefore, we have free will. It seems to me the only argument against why God would allow war is if we didn't have free will. He would have to limit us from doing something that we would otherwise do. It is erroneous for us to assume that we know absolutely nothing of what God wants for us, because He tells us in the scripture. We may not know everything, but don't say we know nothing.

Edit: I also have a desire to never shove my religion on anyone else, but I was only arguing because this thread seems dedicated to being contained within the bounds of that religion.

We live in a master plan that only one [person] knows. We can't say that he allows it to happen when it is part of his plan. If we could control it then the question of "why does ..." can be asked. Just as children should not question the reasons of a parents actions, we shouldn't question the reasons of our creators actions. We don't know our fate so we can't question why our fate happens or what it holds.

The entire world has a seperate fate. The same rule holds true. War is apart of a global fate. Every action invokes a seperate reaction and wars are a by-product of some action, religion, greed or whatever. The fate is the always the same. There will be a beginning and an end. The Alpha and the Omega. Don't question why it happens just sit for the ride and make the best of it. It can be a wonderful ride if you allow it. Having faith is the first step in understanding this vast universe we call home.

tMR

he allows war cos it's his way of climate control

Simple. You cannot have good unless you have evil. Peace=good. War=Evil

Simple. You cannot have good unless you have evil. Peace=good. War=EvilMore of that matrix philosophy;)



Ok...The first post said something about 'there is war because of the human desire to sin' and that we should beg forgiveness for our nation going to war. What if I don't want the war? Do I still have to beg of god's forgiveness? What if the war is one of many reasons I sorta dislike the country I live in? Would god want that?

Is this little pamphlet that AnythingForYou recieved just another religious advertisement to get more people to 'beleive'?

...If war should do anything, it should motivate God's people to repent and to pray! We can repent of our individual sin, of sin in the church, and of sin in our nation and world. We can seek God's forgiveness and healing. We can pray with grave concern and great confidence to God our Father in Heaven, who is sovereign over all the affairs of men. In the face of terror and war, we can fervently seek God's mercy for ourselves and for all those who have yet to believe...
...hmm...they seem more concerned about the person they gave the pamphlet to than everyone else in the country IMO...

I totally just watched the movie Equilibrium. Anyone seen it? Its an awesome symbolic human nature society sorta movie.

If you havent seen it, the synopsis:
In order to stop man's inhumanity to man, a society named Libria has banned all things that cause human emotion- art, music, etc. And has also developed a drug to suppress emotion, making everyone and everything the same.

So, without human emotion, there wouldnt be war. However, without human emotion, we wouldnt be humans at all- and therefore not even made in God's image.So in order for humans to be human, we need to feel- and a consequence of feeling is violence and war.

God gave us free will. This means that if we decide to kill each other with it then so be it. Thus is the nature of man, survival instincts can somtimes mean that it is necerssary to kill an other to survive, if it is a whole nation (or whatever) threatening your existance then it may be necerssary to go to war to survive. As for why they start? Unfourtunatley some humans chose evil in there free will, are petty, or delusional. This is all just opinion of course. We have the right to chose between good and evil. If we did not then we would not deserve the rewards of good, because we wouldnt have earnt them, we would have been given them. If someone else bought my ticket to heaven, I doubt Id enjoy it as much. Shame about most people being to stupid to pick Good really.

Well, aside from the fact that Christianity isn't the only relgion, and I'm indifferent to each and every one (bar those cults like the KKK).
In Homer's Odyssey, you know, that story about Odysseus and how he manages to get back to Ithica after the battle of Troy, etc.
Well, in that, theres something along the lines of people blaming the gods for the bad things in their life. And the gods would say among themselves or something: "Its mans own shortcomings that result in his own misfortune".

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is that it is man, and only man that has anything to do with war, and the reason(s) for war.
*cough* MONEY *cough*

But if I did believe in a religion, I'd say that either there are many gods, and they are waring between each other, and using humans? Kinda like the game 'black and white' ...at least I think it's like that, I've only heard about it....
Or maybe we got a real morbid dude up there, that likes the carnage... again, much like us when we play video games... man I must sound like such a nerd. Oh wells, whatchya gonn do?

War isn't aaallll bad though. Apart from death, destruction and a whole host of horrible things, war IS the mother of invention. Without it we wouldn't be where we are now, technology-wise... At least I doubt it.
Plus, on the off chance that an alien or sum asteroid threatens earth, we r safer, i spose..

What have I been drinking?

*EDIT* When I said I am indifferent to such cults as the KKK, it means I hate or dislike them.

i think god has war bc we need to have our eyes opened bc we have been living in everything wrong and war is a way to open our eyes to everything good in the world i mean war is a bad time but every one comes together for the good of mankind and helps in correcting the unbalance everything happens for a reason and so does war

"If we dont learn from history then we are doomed to repeat it"

A favourite phrase of mine. Too bad humans on the whole ignore it. We never really seem to learn as a race, just pockets of us here and there.

you ask why does god allow wars, speaking with much pain and sorrow in my heart because i lost family close family to this war in iraq and because my brother was recently deployed to there i can honestly say that god allows wars to happen because a wise man once said "sometimes for peace you have to fight for it" please pray for my brothers safe return as well as all the brave men and women who are serving.

Simple. You cannot have good unless you have evil. Peace=good. War=Evil

and why exactly cant you have good without evil?

and why exactly cant you have good without evil?

How would you know what good is if you didnt have evil to compare it too? The same would all be the same.

How would you know what good is if you didnt have evil to compare it too? The same would all be the same.

Okay this is off topic, but cant evil be stopped? I mean can we at one point live in a world where we know what evil is, it just doesnt exist anymore?

Okay this is off topic, but cant evil be stopped? I mean can we at one point live in a world where we know what evil is, it just doesnt exist anymore?

Maybe at first, but then new generations wouldnt really understand the difference, having never seen anything of it. Makes you wonder if utopia is possible with us.

Okay this is off topic, but cant evil be stopped? I mean can we at one point live in a world where we know what evil is, it just doesnt exist anymore?
Man, by his very nature, is evil. That's why there are Hitlers, Saddam Husseins, murderers, etc, etc. Unless you stop man, you cannot stop evil.

Of course it would be nice if there were no evil in the world , but as ToB said, humans by nature are that.

Have you seen that movie "Pleasentville" w/ Toby Maguire and reese Witherspoon that came out a while ago? Well they got sucked into a world where everyone was perfect and nice and nothing ever went wrong.

Now THAT was scary.

:p

Quoting Orson Welles in 'The Third Man' -

"...in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

that God is bound in some way not to intercede?

Satan was cast out of Heaven and given essentially dominion of the Earth. Could it be possible that God is therefore bound by his own action until the events of Revelation come to pass, namely the second coming..?

No one really knows. It does however explain how terrible things like 9/11 happen.

What also distresses me majorly is George Bush using God as justification for the things he's doing.

Why is it that so much blood is shed in the name of religion?

There's something wrong with such behaviour.

C

Blood is shed in the name of religion because of a few things. The misguided who belive they are doing the lords work, the evil who need an excuse and a rallying point, the power hungry who delude themselves and others.

All I know is that is a higher power really does have anything to do with it, then I hate it.

Because then nothing would be considered good.
Evil makes good good. If there was no satan/sin, God/Jesus would have nothing to do. One half of an opposite cannot exist alone- without the other half.
If you didnt have evil- good wouldnt exist because good would be the norm. There would be no competition for it.

Man, by his very nature, is evil. That's why there are Hitlers, Saddam Husseins, murderers, etc, etc. Unless you stop man, you cannot stop evil.

Evil and good are not real terms

It's just a something we have used to very poorly describe certain characteristics of life.

Evil to one person is good to another, and so it's solely based on what the masses believe & follow.

A world full of Hitler’s would not be seen as evil, if you see what I am saying. They would see their actions as good, and hence it would be a world full of good.


Man can't always be 'evil' because there is no real way to define it.
To people however, man can be seen as good or evil based on their beliefs.

Maybe God, or the Goddess, whom I believe in, is allowing war to teach us a lesson? Maybe we have been such bad people over the millions of years on this planet. and we have made many people suffer because of our selfishness and cruelty, that we are getting a taste of our own medicine?
It's just a thought. I believe that if we all could just get along with each other, like God or the Goddess intended for us to do, there would be no need for a war.

Evil and good are not real terms

It's just a something we have used to very poorly describe certain characteristics of life.

Evil to one person is good to another, and so it's solely based on what the masses believe & follow.

A world full of Hitler’s would not be seen as evil, if you see what I am saying. They would see their actions as good, and hence it would be a world full of good.


Man can't always be 'evil' because there is no real way to define it.
To people however, man can be seen as good or evil based on their beliefs.

You know how we've been arguing like spastics in the "Absolute/Relative Morality" thread? Well, Here's Luna to put it all into perspective in one simple post.

Matt, mate... you rock. There should be more Lunas in the world. Hell yeah.

I think wars are result of all the lower and negative energies on our planet. If everyone loved one another there would be no negativity, no jealousy, greed, etc. The lower energies( or entities if you will) would have nothing to feed on because the balance would be harmonious instead of chaotic.
Let's face it we have much more chaos in our world than harmony. It is my belief we feed this chaos through our daily lives. Because we are a world of so many religious , personal and racial conflicts it is a constant source of energy for the lower cess pool. It is more about spiritual energy than anything else, if the spirit is sick, damaged, unclean( depression, hatred, jealousy, greed) it will not be able to ward off negative energy. When we have so many people afflicted with these things for so long the good energy cannot thrive. Love is divine light that will fill our world if we only let it.

As for God(or Goddess) letting there be wars, I don't think it is something he/she just lets happen. I think it is a consequence of those lower energies monopolizing our world. There are many truths that teach us how to rid ourselves of these energy leeches but alot of lies exist also that keep us from being able to see clearly enough to be effective.

I'm not sure if I explained this well enough or not to make sense?

Well it's not possible to have a world free from depression, hatred, jealousy, or greed. You can supress it, but it won't go away.

Like ToB said, they are human nature. However how we view them is up to us. If the whole world though it was ok to steal music, then it would be seen as a good thing (aka higher energy). Anything that can be seen as good can also be seen as evil and visa versa. Because of this there is no way to define the energy because bad energy to you might be good energy to me, unless you are basing it on a specific religions point of views and their beliefs.

How would you define what is good or bad? I don't think it can be defined because there is no answer to why humans are here or what their purpose is. There is only what people choose to believe.

The energies are based purely on perception and can vary from one person to the other. In that respect it can't be a unified (world wide) energy. I would say it's impossible for the world to just be 'good' according to the terms of man kind as a whole. Humans can't agree on anything anyway, there are too many varying opinions which won't change. Humans do like to disagree, I will say that's one thing that will always be constant in life.



But I hate debating, I don't know why I'm doing this.

Well it's not possible to have a world free from depression, hatred, jealousy, or greed. You can supress it, but it won't go away.

Like ToB said, they are human nature. However how we view them is up to us. If the whole world though it was ok to steal music, then it would be seen as a good thing (aka higher energy). Anything that can be seen as good can also be seen as evil and visa versa. Because of this there is no way to define the energy because bad energy to you might be good energy to me, unless you are basing it on a specific religions point of views and their beliefs.

How would you define what is good or bad? I don't think it can be defined because there is no answer to why humans are here or what their purpose is. There is only what people choose to believe.

The energies are based purely on perception and can vary from one person to the other. In that respect it can't be a unified (world wide) energy. I would say it's impossible for the world to just be 'good' according to the terms of man kind as a whole. Humans can't agree on anything anyway, there are too many varying opinions which won't change. Humans do like to disagree, I will say that's one thing that will always be constant in life.



But I hate debating, I don't know why I'm doing this.

It is beyond me why anyone would think depression, greed and hate would create a positive vibe. At any rate only in a perfect world where there were no secrets, no hidden agendas and nothing false would all be known.
As you said it all comes down to personal or religious beliefs. No one is ever going to agree because we are so diverse.What is one person's wrong is another's right.

Another "Why does God allow xxx?" question...

There's a simple answer to this question:

There is no God.

It is beyond me why anyone would think depression, greed and hate would create a positive vibe.

My question is how can one classify them as bad / negative energies when there is no proof that such a thing can possibly exist. They are only bad because man was taught they are bad.

And it's possible for one to get pleasure out of depression or greed. Look at all the crazed people of the world. Good and Bad vibes are basically what your mind tells you to feel, and people seem to have the power to change that.

At least that's how I see it from a logical standpoint.

Another "Why does God allow xxx?" question...

There's a simple answer to this question:

There is no God.

It's obvious, and has already been stated in the thread, that this discussion is only for people who believe in a higher power, or people who intend to argue within that context. Statements like this are pointless and have no business being made.

Here's the news, Christians... This is what your FAITH is for. Your job is to get on with your lives and deal with whatever is thrown at you, be it war, famine, pestilence or death, and hope that by the end of it all you've lived according to your own rules as best as you can.

Trying to argue questions like this is really trying to do without your faith. As a Christian, you don't have that option.Actually im pretty sure God wants us to ask questions like that...and doesnt He say to cast all your burdens and troubles on Him?? so asking God questions like that is trying to do without your faith.

in the old testament God wanted His people to go to war...read exodus, judges etc, in order to get their land, and get rid of Gods enemies...so i reckon He has a purpose for wars...i dont know about the one right now...and i think it is ok to question what God does!

Actually im pretty sure God wants us to ask questions like that...and doesnt He say to cast all your burdens and troubles on Him?? so asking God questions like that is trying to do without your faith.

in the old testament God wanted His people to go to war...read exodus, judges etc, in order to get their land, and get rid of Gods enemies...so i reckon He has a purpose for wars...i dont know about the one right now...and i think it is ok to question what God does!

Didnt God also gove us free will according to the bible? Hence its up to us what we do, he doesnt interfer. Its our fault if we screw up, not his.

IMO, we wouldnt be human without war, struggle, and strife.

in your opinion? back it up? :points to the door:

The question of 'Why does God allow war?' has a very simple explanation. God allows those to defend themselves. Kill by the sword die by the sword. The real question is what drives people to war? That is yet another simple explanation, it being evil. If the world was good, then there would be no war. Since the world has evil then war will happen. We have 'wars' everyday of our life. Be it, anger about the route that one takes to school or the way one questions what we want to do. War (so to speak) is a staple in everyday life as we know it. Now, since we as a nation are at war, then we need to understand why that has to happen. So we answer the question that started this thread. We are at war because there are those that differ from us and who seek harm upon anyone who thinks differently than they. It is that simple. War could be avoided by the action that provoked us. 'That' action should not have happened. Governments all think that they are right in how they should run their populations. America has always been a passive county but there comes a time when we need to say enough is enough. There are those who want to see harm to us and they will not even stop when the harm is done.

It is a battle that was brought to us. They started the War and we are going to finish it.

If you really want an answer to this question, then ask someone who has evil in thier heart. With good in thier heart war will always be a second option. A country can only take so much.

Do you read your bible? im not a religous supporter but i had it rammed down my neck for 15 years. god wont stop any wrong doing untill the armagedon, including war. in fact the bible predicts a few of the modern day attrocitys weve seen in the middle east

I think that God allows war because he gave us the choice, the choice to do the good or right thing. If you think about it war has to happen because no matter what it the world and everything in it must be in balance. Even in the eternal Garden of Eden there was turmoil. God specifically said not to eat the apples off the tree, and yet they were eaten.
God allows war to happen because he knows that there can be no peace without war, no love without hate no day without night, and so on. He does this to maintain the natural balance of the world.

-Jon

IMO, God doesn't allow war, neither does he dis-allow it. God only created us, he doesnt control us. God made humans in a way that we are full of complex, and not so complex feelings. God made every single person on this planet different, and by doing so this simutalenously brought about disagreements and clash's in personality that could lead to fighting. War has nothing to do with god, just as God didnt "let" 9/11 or Pearl Harbour occur - human beings did. God merley created us, blissfully un-aware of problems caused with differences in humans. Anyway, most people turn out a certain way as a result of the society they grew up in - very little to do with god

I was always taught God gave us free will and for that he does not intervien with the mistakes we make. If God stepped in and stopped war and tragic events then he would be taking away free will.

I'm not a beleiver in God. I prefer to beleive in science.

god wont stop any wrong doing
You haven't read your bible well enough then.

Theologically, that statement is off kilter with what the bible does actually teach, dude. :)

/back to topic/.

Looks like Jehavoh or Mormon shit - I always throw that stuff in the bin and try and scare the bible bashers by telling them I'm a Witch and then I show em my pentagram jewellery... at which point they usually make a beeline for the next poor sucker

i got a forward one time about this chick......:thinking of her name:.......i don't remember. but she was asked the same question. and she said "why wouldn't he? we chase him out of our schools. We take him out of our laws. basicly we're just chasing him away from us." would you bless people who are doing to you what we as a nation has done to him??

lauren

Oh, so the ever-loving God has no patience for us then? I thought he was supposed to be above such pettiness for a supreme being...I guess not.

Back on topic; war is very good for encouraging technological development, primarily for military purposes but also for society's progress as well. Pencillin was discovered before WW2, but only the need to produce it rapidly in large enough amounts for the military quickly kick-started investigations into improving the production and finding more efficient strains of the penicillin bacterium to create for example.

Of course He has patience and grace; we're still here aye?

It's just that there ARE consequences to to the actions we perform, there's no denying that. It's a fundamental law. Cause and effect.

I think God can lift His blessing around us, but that doesn't mean He has no patience or whatnot.

I firmly believe that you can believe in God and science at the same time. Being a practicing Catholic and a believer of Evolution/biology major myself.

Looks like Jehavoh or Mormon shit - I always throw that stuff in the bin and try and scare the bible bashers by telling them I'm a Witch and then I show em my pentagram jewellery... at which point they usually make a beeline for the next poor sucker

This basically sounds much like trolling and had nothing to do with the debate at hand. Take a break for a few days.

"God is dead." ~ Neitzsche

Neitzsche is dead. -God

"God is dead." ~ Neitzsche

I just had a little case of the red ass with the other guy for non-contribution...

God and War please, not this: http://www.evboard.com/showthread.php?t=13365

Why does God allow war to happen? Same thing as asking why does God allow diseases to kill people. I don't think there is a god which is why I think these things happen. If god creates everything in his image, and created all of these horrible things in the world, what does that say about us?

If god creates everything in his image, and created all of these horrible things in the world, what does that say about us?
What does that say about God? I mean, perhaps we're like, a toy ant farm, and our Creator enjoys watching us beating each other up. I mean, what little didn't enjoy burning ants as a kid? What proof do we have that God is just? What do we even know about justice?

maybe he does it for kicks
have you ever played the sims.......? come on, after a while you get bored of trying to give the sims a perfect life so you decide to let him starve, or create a disaster

maybe is like god and the devil playing a game to see which side wins?

lol.............i dunno......no one does............

to me we create war.....not some dude sittin in the clouds

what about if its like god and the devil playing a game of chess or somethin........
and pearl harbour was a game of battleships?????

The question of 'Why does God allow war?' has a very simple explanation. God allows those to defend themselves. Kill by the sword die by the sword. The real question is what drives people to war? That is yet another simple explanation, it being evil. If the world was good, then there would be no war. Since the world has evil then war will happen. We have 'wars' everyday of our life. Be it, anger about the route that one takes to school or the way one questions what we want to do. War (so to speak) is a staple in everyday life as we know it. Now, since we as a nation are at war, then we need to understand why that has to happen. So we answer the question that started this thread. We are at war because there are those that differ from us and who seek harm upon anyone who thinks differently than they. It is that simple. War could be avoided by the action that provoked us. 'That' action should not have happened. Governments all think that they are right in how they should run their populations. America has always been a passive county but there comes a time when we need to say enough is enough. There are those who want to see harm to us and they will not even stop when the harm is done.

It is a battle that was brought to us. They started the War and we are going to finish it.

If you really want an answer to this question, then ask someone who has evil in thier heart. With good in thier heart war will always be a second option. A country can only take so much.
How can the moderators allow this politically biased opinion which is narrow minded and yet block my differing opinion – what’s the point of having a debate otherwise? It’s like making out with a mirror!

I have no concrete answers to why God allows war, and this doesn’t mean I don’t believe in God because of this, I just don’t profess to know, and neither should anyone else, only say what you think, not state what is and isn’t.

I don’t think the Iraqis would call their country’s occupation our defence. I believe that the best defence isn’t an offence; it’s to know when to sit quiet and not stir up a whirlwind of trouble in the Middle East.

Defence is when someone attacks you and you stop them, not obliterating a nation to stop one man. Like if I was tripped up deliberately and I defended myself by shooting the attacker – that’s not defence, that’s murder and that’s the equivalent of what America and Britain are doing. And concerning the act that provoked this war on terror (if this is what you are referring to); Bin Laden could have been caught but he was left to escape, we didn’t get him so we bombed Afghanistan because the Taliban weren’t in favour.

If your favourite music was Jazz and I said you should like Blues because the melody makes more sense then I would be wrong to enforce this opinion, what gives me the right to tell you this. In the same way what gives us the right to ‘free’ people from tyranny, maybe they are happy, maybe they can decide for themselves what they like. It takes one side to start a war but it takes more than one side to be at war; if we listened instead of retaliate then I think we’d be learning from our mistakes. Iraqis are thinking the exact same thing as the topic of this post, i.e. why does God allow this to happen.

I agree with Lonelyinthedarkness

“God allows war to happen because he knows that there can be no peace without war, no love without hate no day without night, and so on. He does this to maintain the natural balance of the world. I think God, gives us the choice to decide amongst ourselves whether or not, for example, to kill for greed, or to know when to stand back and not get involved. I think that we’d have a lot less stress related illness killing us off if we weren’t made to watch our backs because our governments are still choosing to retaliate with equal defiance of “those who trespass against us” instead of forgiving them.

I realise that by raising question to MetalRepublican’s post I too am asking for trouble, but in a debate I thought opinions were to be shared and not stated as fact.

I ask myself why God allowed the Republican Party to actually win this time!

How can the moderators allow this politically biased opinion which is narrow minded and yet block my differing opinion – what’s the point of having a debate otherwise? It’s like making out with a mirror!

His post went on way less of a political rant tangent than this one of yours has. The majority of what he said was toward the topic. We're currently in a war so I think it's okay for someone on either side of the issue to at least acknowledge it. It could also be said that your opinion is narrowminded, so keep that in mind. This thread isn't going to turn into the presidential election thread. Very mild politics while still basically on topic are fine, but you crossed that line here I think with what's below.

I don’t think the Iraqis would call their country’s occupation our defence. I believe that the best defence isn’t an offence; it’s to know when to sit quiet and not stir up a whirlwind of trouble in the Middle East.

Defence is when someone attacks you and you stop them, not obliterating a nation to stop one man. Like if I was tripped up deliberately and I defended myself by shooting the attacker – that’s not defence, that’s murder and that’s the equivalent of what America and Britain are doing. And concerning the act that provoked this war on terror (if this is what you are referring to); Bin Laden could have been caught but he was left to escape, we didn’t get him so we bombed Afghanistan because the Taliban weren’t in favour.

In the same way what gives us the right to ‘free’ people from tyranny, maybe they are happy, maybe they can decide for themselves what they like. It takes one side to start a war but it takes more than one side to be at war; if we listened instead of retaliate then I think we’d be learning from our mistakes. Iraqis are thinking the exact same thing as the topic of this post, i.e. why does God allow this to happen.

...governments are still choosing to retaliate with equal defiance of “those who trespass against us” instead of forgiving them.

I ask myself why God allowed the Republican Party to actually win this time!

I have two theories on this one. Alot of theory, please don't beat me up on it.

1) No one truely knows God, and for those remote few that do poses the religious stature of "Saints" (Muhata Magonde, Mother Thressa, Pope, etc) who preach world peace and universal acceptance, are ignored by the masses who "Think" they know God. People make assumtions that God wants this or God wants that. No matter how wrong they are, they never see the error of their ways, even if it means flying airplanes into buildings or committing genocide of entire races (and no, not even the US is exempt from that last one). We get wrapped up on "My God is better than your God you heathen" and we fail to realise that as a speciese we all came from the SAME place and that in truth, all Gods are the same. After all, how can Allah create one species, Yahweh create another, and monkeys create another? Are we not one species?

2) God doesn't have a direct influence upon us, (more of a metaphysical thought here, so please no bible thumping). Perhaps God is not physical in a sense but is the force around us, the force that creates night and day, storms and beautiful days, a beautiul flower or a devistating volcano. Perhaps we are not nessassarily individually create by God, but in a sense given a realm to live and to explore because the forces around us. As such we are free to make the decisions we wish, no matter how good or evil.

I've always been a believer that Man (generic) creates their own evil. I do not beleive in a devil and see the devil as an excuse to place blame for ones actions elsewere. Wars are created becuase societies hold incompatible views and cannot / will not resolve these differences in a political manner. Man chooses their own evil. And it is within our animalistic nature to strike back once struck. Why do you think there was a near universal acceptance when the US went to war in Afganistan? Sure right now many of us may be questioning Iraq (the last vote was a good indication of that), but when we replaced the Talliban, there were very few "give peace a chance" voices to be heard. It was more like "Bomb the &*^%'ers!". There was a price to be paid for the tragedy that was 9/11.

How about WWII? Japan sneaks a full scale attack on the Pacific fleet and kills thousands cripling our Pacific Navy. What do we do? Two nukes and a peace treaty. And before we launch on the US as being retalitory, remember Germany in WWI. Pretty strong loosers there. Their economy was desimated, the infrastructure destroyed. The government destroyed, and the people subjected to horrible poverty. What does Germany do? A small faction who claims to recapture the former glory of the state and to give hope to the population quickly grows in strenght until it becomes the prodominate force. And about this same time they deside that all the stupid restrictions placed against them after WWI are null and void. It's also about this time they decide to invade France, Poland, and set their sights on England and Russia and tragically decide to start eliminating Jewish people who they claimed ruled the financial markets and were responsible for the poverty. Ironically, and debatably, they claimed this on the Articles of Zion, a political joke released out of Russia (if I remember correctly) that made it look as though Jews ran the global markets. Germany took it seriously instead of realising it was humor and immediatly imprisoned Jews and confescated all their assets. And we all know where that went.

Ok, enough of a book. War happens for a variety of reasons, and I doubt God has anything to do with it. Nations are responsible for the wars they are in. A good term to explain many of the Wars in the latter half of the 20th century is "Blowback". Nice term... very true... and I think it will be the cause of many more wars to come unfortunately.

Bin Laden could have been caught but he was left to escape, we didn’t get him so we bombed Afghanistan because the Taliban weren’t in favour.

I ask myself why God allowed the Republican Party to actually win this time!

Sudan: Sure! That's a good idea, send a contingent of Marines to extract Bin Laden... I'd bet the local government would be ALL for that.

God: I highly doubt God had anything to do withit. Last I checked, I actually had to vote to get someone in office... Blame the bit over half the country that voted. Not God. But be aware that the bit more than half will likely disagree with you ;)

war is a pointless narrow minded procedure
in my opinion if there is a god (which i dont believe, but lets not go there) then well he created life and now its up to us on how we live that life
i dont believe in all those joan of arc stories where they think "god told be to go to war"
BULL
and FYI
war is not an argument over a parking space....its full on taking lives for a cause you think is just

and the war against afganistan, where our aussie troops had to fight in with the yanks etc, well how can you call that just???

i dont believe in retribution, or revenge, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. you may have the death sentence in america, but we dont in australia, and im glad.

how can anyone stand here and say that god thinks its ok to take a life, a live they he created??

(mods i know this is a bit off topic, but dont block it......thanks)

and the war against afganistan, where our aussie troops had to fight in with the yanks etc, well how can you call that just??

Not defending the war, but that's what allies do. The prospect of having to fight alongside someone isn't inevitable, but it is most definitely a possibility.

And if God creates a life, he can damn well do what he pleases with it. After all, if he creates it, it belongs to Him.

God doesn't allow war to happen. People allow war to happen. I don't think God is up there controlling our lives like that. And if he was, then you believe in fate and that everything you do is pre-planned, which takes basically all the joy out of living because there is no choice. I am in control of my own life, not God. Don't go making God your little scapegoat for life's problems. Humans caused 9/11 and humans caused all these wars.

God doesnt ALLOW war to happen......its like watchin your kids grow up and seeing that they are doing something wrong but u cant do anything about it because you want them to fix what they did wrong and hopefully they will learn a lesson and try not to let it happen again

'The futures not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves'



There is a lot of truth to that quote, it tells us we are all responsible for our actions, and that we should think before we act.

i dont believe there is a god.......if there was and he was just as great as everyone said, then there would never be a need for war

The need for war has nothing to do with God, it has to do with differing opinions between world leaders.

why does everyone when something big happens automaticly put the blame on some mythological bloke sittin in the clouds?

why does everyone when something big happens automaticly put the blame on some mythological bloke sittin in the clouds?

The whole thing is basically about free will, even when our free will causes much negativity. We're not blaming anyone. And you know? It's been definitively stated a couple of times in the thread earlier that there is no point in coming here if you don't believe in a God and are only here to argue about that. Your last two posts here really suck and if that's all you can muster then go away.

To add to that, I can't even remember the last time someone tried to place the blame on God for a tragedy. It's almost always the media, parents, or some other source like that. This thread isn't even about blaming God for war.

The whole thing is basically about free will, even when our free will causes much negativity. We're not blaming anyone. And you know? It's been definitively stated a couple of times in the thread earlier that there is no point in coming here if you don't believe in a God and are only here to argue about that. Your last two posts here really suck and if that's all you can muster then go away.

Far be it for me to disagree with a mod (see faq) ;)

But while this person's posts may have not been that great in this thread, there is an interesting point risen. Why must God be blamed? Why must the devil be blamed? Is it not us (general population) who start the wars of this world? Is it not our governments, our religious gatherings, our rebels that start wars? How exactly has God started or allowed anything to start?

Now to start to skew a little...

There's been a lot of murmuring about the Tsunami's lately being a biblical event, several news casts have stated that the survivors out there feel that way. If that is the way to look at it, then that must mean Allah/God is very upset at Muslim people, but I for one am not convinced. If this were true then four hurricanes hitting Florida in one summer would have to rank up there in the odd category as well.

Perhaps God is pissed that his followers are squabbling, but I for one am glad to see a break in the Al Zaqawi Beheading Hour on DNN (Death News Network). It is good to see the catastophy and all the tons of aid and assistance that's pooring into the region. Humanity at it's best from around the world, despite diffences in religions, despite economic borders. Heck, some of the worst areas hit were off limits to outsiders because of civil warrs. Even the rebels put their guns down to mourn the dead and to assist the survivors.

That's what we need to focus on, not a bunch of murdering thugs who want to prolong a long and tretcherous urban war.

thanks khawk69 for seeing my point of view

there is an interesting point risen. Why must God be blamed? Why must the devil be blamed? Is it not us (general population) who start the wars of this world? Is it not our governments, our religious gatherings, our rebels that start wars? How exactly has God started or allowed anything to start?

MY POINT IS HUMANS CREATE WAR.......not a god(s)

you cant blame god for what we as humans decide to do.........it is a human who decides to go to war (prime minister, king, president etc)
it is humans who hold the gun in their hand and take a life
not god

why cant this point be raised.......the question was whay does god allow war?
all im saing is why must god be blamed? isnt it us that allows war to occur?

i have no problem with people believing in god

it helps for comfort if a person has died for people to be at peace and accept what has happened, or for all of us knowing we might go to a better place after death
or for people who are terminally ill to accept their fate

what what really annoys me about religion is war
religion creates war not god himself......

war is created by two sides with differing opinions
think of hitler
he wanted to exterminate all the jews and gypsies and all the people considered imperfect so he could create his perfect society
religion played a large part in this war, but not god, the person believing in god (hitler) created that war....not god himself

i hate when people use religion as a scapegoat for our own actions
religion is not meant for that

god. for one- i dont belive in him, i belive in her.

i think that she allows war because we lead our own lives. we want, desire.

to add to that, all the "treat of terror" is crap. and you better had realise that.

i geuss war is something that inevitably happens because of stupidity in this world. i dont support war, at all.

i remember sitting at a vegetarian reasturant once. some people were talking about the war, and being the only other people thier, we clearly heard them. one man voiced his veiws on the wrongness of war, and then a girl said something that was moving. she had gone to the post office, and saw a lady sending MANY packages to her husband in the war.acculy paid for the entire set of packeges, wich cost about 200-300 dollars or so to ship. it moved me that a stranger would do that.



its all life.

God gave us free will. We are allowed to make whatever decisions we want and we have to face the consequences. If humans want to start wars and such God gave us the power to choose to. We can do basically do whatever we want, he can only guide us in the right direction and if we want to stray from his path then that's our decision. Like the old saying goes " You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" God knows things like this will happen and I like to think he tries to stop them from happening but if we don't want to listen he doesn't force us to.

what about if its like god and the devil playing a game of chess or somethin........
and pearl harbour was a game of battleships?????do you really think that we mean so little to God that he would treat us like that. He gave up his son to die for us...i think that we are more then just playthings to him.

God gave us free will. We are allowed to make whatever decisions we want and we have to face the consequences. If humans want to start wars and such God gave us the power to choose to. We can do basically do whatever we want, he can only guide us in the right direction and if we want to stray from his path then that's our decision. Like the old saying goes " You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" God knows things like this will happen and I like to think he tries to stop them from happening but if we don't want to listen he doesn't force us to.
well put IR. id have to agree.
here's an example. little something i heard about a couple guys in my congregation. one of them owned a small business, and asked another to be a part of it. the other was flattered, but he was a smart man. so he checked the books to see if the business was worth investing in. wasnt meant as an insult or anything, just a percaution.
well what he found out was that he didnt see the business making any money in the following couple years. he tried to warn the guy that owned it, who held to his theory of "its ok. God will take care of me. he knows im a good Cristian, and He'll make sure it all works out", to which his friend responded something like, "God gave you a brain. use it."
well his friend didnt join the business, and some other members of the congregation started to think less of him for it. but sure enough, God did not help the business do any better. it went under that following year as predicted. if He were acting anywhere in that situation, it was probably in the warning from his friend.
its when we turn our backs on the right decision that bad things can happen. but thats not to say the right decision isnt offered. free will is choice.

This is in no way an attempt to debate about the exsistance of God, but I found this interesting and just wanted to share.


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html

back to the topic at hand...

Can I just pipe up and say that the article tMR just linked is a pile of ill-informed, babbling rubbish?

Einstein wasn't an Atheist as that article stated, he just didn't believe in a Personal God. He was quoted as saying that he thought that those who believed in a Personal God and Atheists both suffered from the same kind of blindness... HE believed in the existence of an immensely advanced "Spirit", with a heart of pure mathematics, which was aware of The Plan for the universe, but which was likely to be completely indifferent towards Mankind, if it was even aware of Mankind. He arrived at this conclusion as it was the only remaining logical explanation for 'Why What Happens Happens'.

He didn't fail to grasp any simple concept, he just drew different conclusions from other groups. Whoever wrote that article simply demonstrates the kind of ignorance and arrogance that Einstein was talking about.

Brfore anyone kicks off at me, Einstein would level the same criticism at me for my Atheism ;)

HERE (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/whatson/prog_parse.cgi?FILENAME=20050106/20050106_1545_49700_59180_15) is a link to a BBC Radio 4 programme broadcast today (what a coincidence!) in which Einsteins letters to and from various people more clearly explain his views on religion and religiosity. Have a listen... it makes things perfectly clear... and it's in Einstein's own words.

Right... NOW we can get back on topic ;)

No No Head, may I, please? Thank you.

To hear it in his own words is something of importance but to hear it in his own words at that specific time, is of that much more importance. Anyone can show transcripts or play tapes of someones conversations, but to truly hold them accountable, one must understand the timeline.

Now, what is your timeline in reference to my post?

He said those things, that is not at question. The question seems to be wedged between one or the other. I think he made reference about my comment after he made reference to yours.

Am I wrong?

Back to the topic at hand.

all of my karen carpenter love with that from the bee gees and any other fucking 70's band that I find acceptable.

tMR

wtf...shut the hell up..start a new topic if you must keep on

edit...wow i seem horribly harsh..maybe it is just the sickness. either way. don't post and say back to the topic if you are gonna keep bickering.

in regards to my chess opinion.......

i didnt mean we were small and insignificant, i just meant it as in reference

like god and the devil playing some wargame......but not a game like a boardgame....something more significant

The Priest's sermon at tonights service spoke of "God's presence at the time of suffering and why He even allows it." Figured it was pretty appropriate.

At one point he told a little story about an angel that came down to Earth and bore witness to great pain and suffering, and when back in God's presence asked Him why He let's it happen. He responded with, "We gave people everything they needed; fire... and love. Now it's up to them."

He also spoke of the time that Jesus came to John the Baptist at the River Jordan and requested to be baptised by him. John was confused thinking he should be the one getting baptised by Jesus, but he did it anyway. Upon being baptised the skies opened and yadda yadda... Jesus was proclaimed the Son of God.

The Priest's main point in the sermon was that God is present, allowing and enduring all of our suffering through the baptism and subsequesnt crucifixion of His Son.

I appologize if I wasn't able to get the point across very well.

maybe........its all a test to see what happens and how we resolve conflict.....if it is i think we've all failed