like i stated in the polygamy thread, i belive there is quite a fine line between lifelong religeous conviction and outright brainwashing. i would like to discuss that here.

according to the wikipdia dictionary, brainwashing is defined as:

the wikipedia article further defines it as:



the wikipedia article goes on to say that:

from a personal perspective:

I have been accused myself of being "brainwashed" or "programmed" by opponents of the mormon faith while discussing theology with them, as many view the lds (mormon) church as a cult, and belive the practicioners to be brainwashed.

i do not wish to debate the many objections to (mainstream) mormonism in this thread, and i will simply state that in almost every case, i prefer to "agree to disagree" with those who dispute the validity of the (mainstream) mormon religion, and leave it at that.

what then, do i think makes cases such as the subgroup of folks who live in the FLDS compound in texas, and groups such as the "moonies", the branch dividians, and the former "heavans gate" crew a study in the subjct of outright brainwashing?

My personal opinion: is that when your religous beliefs venture beyond simply different, slightly illogical, or a little wierd, and begin to teach somthing that is contrary to genetic human nature, such as the desire to commit organised, deliberate, mass suicide as a basic principle, the need to engage in imbreeding and underage sexual abuse as a primary way of life, or the need to commit other forms of organised crime, ritual abuse and/or murder, AND that these beliefs are presented in such a way that your choice is extremely limited by either your enviroment or the threat of violence or spiritual damnation, you are being brainwashed and used.

and, on a semi related note, it seems, at least to me, to be a very common trend of many of those groups who are doing the brainwashing to retreat to an isolated compound and practice the belifs out of sight of the folks who would forcefully end them due to ther being contrry to the law and common beif of the surrounding culture, or engage in ther belifes in an otherwise extremly secretive manner. a behavior seenn very recently in the warren heffs aproach to polygamy/polagynany/bigamy.


thats just my take. what do ya'll think?

__________________


"What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can no longer believe you. "-Nietzsche

My original songs and other stuff updated 1-8-2006

Formerly known as Computwitch

The trouble with this, and working in law enforcement for over a decade, I've seen it a-plenty, is having to determine that 1. The person is participating against their will, and 2. Their welfare is endangered beyond a reasonable degree.

As an adult, you are offered very little protection from yourself. If you want to join the moonies, then no one can stop you. If you declare your intention to harm yourself and others, then we can intervene. But if you don't breathe a word of it to anyone and drink the kool-aid, there's nothing anyone can do about it. The reason for this stems from the controls put on government to guarantee your freedoms. One person's whacked-out wierdo cult is another person's salvation, and it's not up to the government to decide which is which. To be honest, this would be a scary place if it *were* up to the government to decide.

Now, once one of these groups, such as the Branch Davidians, start flagrantly defying the law, then police agencies will step in. But so long as they mind their own business and obey the law, we can't say boo to them.

Case in point - Scientology. Families routinely sue because they claim their family members are being psychologically imprisoned. Those lawsuits fail as soon as the person is determined to be competent and says "I want to be here".

It's not up to the government to tell you how to live your life, or to protect you from being gullible or weak willed. If a crime is committed, then the government will intervene, but short of that, your civil rights protections ensure that they aren't going to get involved without a compelling reason.

On the subject of the government intervening for crimes, I think it has been shown throughout history that the government "makes" things illegal just to be able to prosecute. The reason polygamy was made illegal is because the government was afraid of the power that the mormon church was gaining politically at the time. It needed to reign them in and so they withheld statehood until the mormons complied with their new law. Even though it goes against everything that this new country stands for. Religious freedom. If you think you are truly free to practice what you believe then you are "brainwashed".

What about Evangelical people? And the way they raise their children? Does anyone else think that's brainwashing and not actual spiritualism?

I saw the movie Jesus Camp and learned some startling things about Evangelicals. Most of the children are homeschooled because they don't want them mixing with people who aren't Evangelical. They instill a fear in their kids that if they don't love Jesus they are going to hell, and they make sure the kids know that hell is a very bad place. They teach the children that if someone isn't Evangelical they shouldn't be associated with, they teach the kids to speak in tongues at church, they teach the children that if you aren't Evangelical you are going to hell.

If an adult converts to this and chooses this as their life path I don't have a problem with it, but raising children like that is not right.

~Monica

__________________
TRUST NO ONE
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Well, IMO...
I dont think its right really for children to be taught one specific religion, using the total tunnel vision method, that if they dont believe in THIS relgion, they'll suffer damnation.
I think that if you're gonna start teaching kids(or should I say, TRAINING) to beleive in god, right from birth, that you should maybe educate them in all types of religion, give them a taste of each, giving them an open mind, so that they can take a piece from each and kinda form something on their own, y'know? That way, later on in life, they can decide for themselves what they want to believe in. I mean, if you teach a child ONE thing from when they are very little, and tell them that it is wrong to do other wise, of COURSE they're going to believe in it.. it'll be programmed into them... its like teaching kids that the colour "red" is called red, its not like it was always actually CALLED red, it could still be red but called blue somewhere else, but its all in what we teach them, you know what I mean?
I think it's possible that every relgion has some truth in it, and that every religion has flaws aswell, I mean, no religion is totally dead-on. They all have weird loop holes and gaps, but you kinda have to think for yourself, and fill in the blanks. Not just hang on every word that comes out of some preachers mouth.
I myself dont believe in any one religion.
I take peices, and I try to figure things out, but I dont think it really matters, cos we'll never really know.
And then again, if there is a god and all of that, shouldnt we just know that automatically after we're born? Have some knowing sense of.. something? I think if there was god this would be the case. But no, we're TAUGHT to believe there is a god, we're TAUGHT to beilieve theres something else.

__________________
INSANITY IS THE FIRST SIGN OF INSANITY!!!
Scream and make sure you keep it quiet~ Do you wanna be on what I feel?~

Very good point Esuna, but I think that even kids who were taught that there was no God have found Him in some form or another. I have known kids who were raised as Athiests and became Christian. I've known kids who were raised Catholic become Athiests. I think that even if you were put in a nuetral setting not being taught about God one way or the other, you would eventually think there was something bigger then you controlling the universe. Maybe, maybe not, I just believe that.

~Monica

__________________
TRUST NO ONE
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

I agree with this, and I'm a pretty good example of this.

I was raised with a strong Christian faith. We went to church every Sunday and participated in many church-related activities. This was mostly my Grandma's influence. (That's nothing negative, I adored her and I love her for instilling Christianity, the faith that I eventually found my way back to.)

When I was in my early to mid teens, I wasn't sure what to believe. I went through this...it wasn't just a phase, but that's the only word I can use to describe it...phrase of agnosticism. I didn't say God existed, but I didn't say He was non-existant either. I think really I was just torn because I had a hard time truly believing in God because it was a tough period for me. I figured that if I had any doubt at all that God existed, then I couldn't possibly truly believe anymore, but at the same time, I couldn't say that God was non-existant because I didn't know that for sure, so I considered myself agnostic for that time period

I eventually found my way back to Christianity, though. Things happened and I started to get my faith back. I think I started to take note of some of the smaller miracles in life and realize that there HAD to be something more, there just had to be. I did find my way back to God, and my bond with Him now I think is stronger than ever, although I do not attend church because I like to worship one-on-one...it makes it feel like a friendship to me, a personal relationship that way.

OK, to the point of this thread...I believe brain-washing really occurs when people are forced to go against beliefs that they had prior to becoming involved with any said group (like Brainy Smurf said). Like Brainy Smurf also said, it's when you're threatened with either Earthly or spiritual retaliation of some sort that it becomes more of a brain-washing deal and less pure spiritual conviction.

Just my $0.02.

__________________

There's this woman that goes to my school that's all about Jesus.She even said she's married to him.She's a total hyprocrite too because she says she's all about Jesus yet she said gay people are evil. It just pisses me off.

She says she's married to him? Well...unless she happens to actually be married to someone of that name (like a Mexican), she's nutty as a fruitcake, obviously.

As for the 'gay ppl are evil' thing, they aren't, but what they do (the homosexual acts) is biblically considered an abomination. Many things are considered abominations, though, > drunkeness, sorcery, etc.

__________________
How to stop the NWO immediately: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29055

That's an ignorant statement. Someone who is profoundly religious can and will see themselves as being fully committed to the church and/or God. Many relate the work of nuns and priests as being married to God, which is why they aren't permitted to get married themselves. They are already fully focused on their relationship with God. Just because this woman feels strongly about her relationship with Jesus, doesn't give you any right to bash her for it.

Furthermore, as to the hating gays part you also commented on, it just speaks to her beliefs. There are some very conservative sects of Christianity that simply believe gay people are sinners and a representation of the devil's presence here on earth in everyday people. You may not agree with it, but I'm just giving you some background to help you understand this woman's point of view.

Though, I would agree with you that it seems hypocritical, from my point of view, to love God so much and at the same time carry so much hate and resentment for an entire group of people.

__________________